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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by cokewithvanilla View Post
    So, I am in college, it's not surprising that people living close by are trying to save money. It seems, especially if you live in an apartment complex, that almost anywhere you go, you can get free internet... from the neighbors. Some leave it open, some leave the password in the SSID, and, in any event, it's not terribly difficult to crack a WEP or WPA password.

    I have a very biased opinion on this (comcast screws me over enough to not care if I am "stealing" from them, cause they've done it to me), so what do you think? Do, you think it's fair to share your internet with your neighbor? What about if you have one service, and he has the other and you trade... in case one goes down?
    I had a freind in FL who actually went downstairs to his neighbor and asked him if he could use their internet. He said he would happily split whatever the cost was for it provided he could use their wireless. They were more than happy to do so and he used it until he moved.

    I have a couple other freinds that do the same thing. Heck if my neighbors asked me and said they would help with the bill (and then followed through on it) I would have no problem sharing my connection with them.

    Regarding hacking a WEP key....I have had a freind who considered legal action against a neighbor because they did that to them....considering if your network has drives mapped to it and is secure, the second someone cracks your WEP key those drives are availble to them as well as the data on them.

    Its something I know freinds have done, but not something I would personally do. I find most folks wouldnt have a problem giving me their key if I helped pay for the cost of the service.
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  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
    I....considering if your network has drives mapped to it and is secure, the second someone cracks your WEP key those drives are availble to them as well as the data on them.
    That's only true if you're an idiot. Even on a private network you should never open up network mapped drives to "everyone." Always require authentication.
    If you will it, dude, it is no dream.

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobman1235 View Post
    That's only true if you're an idiot. Even on a private network you should never open up network mapped drives to "everyone." Always require authentication.
    Totally agree, however most users fall into that "idiot" category. As a IT professional I do not, nor do any of the computers I setup for my family and freinds.....but not everyone is that smart.

    Also as mentioned if you open up your network to someone who starts downloading files (music, movies, ect) illegally you will be the one held liable for the "theft" even though you personally didnt do it.

    Something to think about if you plan to share your connection.

    Regarding the legality from the ISP's point of view I am sure they dont want you to do that, but I dont know if they have a good way to track if you are.
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  4. #34

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    To be honest, if you have a WPA2 password that is 64 alphanumeric characters with symbols, cracking it is out of the realm of normal measures. I haven't been keeping up with things, but after the handshake is captured, last I checked, you pretty much have to brute force the password. Doing that on such a password would take many lifetimes.

    This measure should be more than enough to keep out most curious individuals. I've always used the "easier target" method of network security. I prefer ease of use over security most days a week (for myself). For example, I use no mac filtering since I have so many computers coming in and out, it would be pointless. I also do not restrict users for file sharing on my computers because, again, I have so many computers going in and out and I HATE typing a password more than anything in this world ha.

    One question I was wondering, is cracking a router password actually illegal? If you look online, most of the internet junkies say yes, but do they really know? It sounds illegal, sure. But Ben mentioned that thing about all open frequencies. So, if you capture the handshake, and take it home and crack the PW for ****s and giggles, have you really done anything wrong? I would argue no.

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by cokewithvanilla View Post
    One question I was wondering, is cracking a router password actually illegal? If you look online, most of the internet junkies say yes, but do they really know? It sounds illegal, sure. But Ben mentioned that thing about all open frequencies. So, if you capture the handshake, and take it home and crack the PW for ****s and giggle, have you really done anything wrong? I would argue no.
    There are lots of new laws popping up about this kind of thing, so while I don't exactly have the resources to say for sure, I would almost guarantee it is illegal.
    If you will it, dude, it is no dream.

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobman1235 View Post
    There are lots of new laws popping up about this kind of thing, so while I don't exactly have the resources to say for sure, I would almost guarantee it is illegal.
    It's too bad this world has gotten so complicated that we, as simple citizens, cannot say with confidence whether or not something is legal.

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by cokewithvanilla View Post
    It's too bad this world has gotten so complicated that we, as simple citizens, cannot say with confidence whether or not something is legal.
    In theory I agree, but with something so obviously morally wrong it's not going to keep me up at night.
    If you will it, dude, it is no dream.

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobman1235 View Post
    In theory I agree, but with something so obviously morally wrong it's not going to keep me up at night.
    Ha. The way I see it, and I could be wrong... I ask myself "has this action, or could this action ever do anyone any harm" .. if the answer is no, then it is morally ok. So, in cracking a password for fun, as long as you never use it, and just do it to.. i don't know, check the effectiveness of your word list or whatever, it's fine.

    In this case, you haven't even exposed yourself to their network, haven't even connected let alone been able to look at their personal information.

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by cokewithvanilla View Post
    Ok, it seems like some of you are unsure where I stand here on stealing wifi.

    I think, even though it's considered stealing, it's more like stealing someones trash than taking someones valuables. If you are simply using it to check email or something, you are not placing any burden on the service. And, of course, if they leave the door open, they have to expect that someone might walk in. Poor defense isn't a justification, but when someone has a SSID "The Password Is Mousepad"... you just might consider this an invitation.

    If you look how I worded this question, it allows for many levels of interpretation: sharing with a neighbor for benefit of service downs, taking from an unsecured neighbor, and cracking a secured neighbor. I simply wanted to see what people thought, I do not need Club Polk to help me make my moral decisions :)

    Dangers of stealing wifi: sure, there could always be that little hacker kid using it as "bait", but ****ting where you live... literally, is not the brightest of ideas. More unsecured wifi's are out there from uninformed users than hackers trying to screw with you. If you use someones wifi, you simply need to beware that this could be the case.

    Do I steal open wifi? No. Have I used open wifi before? certainly, usually at restaurants... but I think that's the purpose, no? Do I think it's fair to share? yes, I do. If I can have 10 people in my household using one connection, then I can have 10 neighbors use it too. I like the idea that I am paying for bandwidth, not for specific users. Of course, the dangers of sharing are obvious, so this is one big reason not to leave yourself open. Also, I don't have any neighbors who are worth sharing with.

    Breaking the law because they did it: I am not saying this is an excuse to do something wrong, but rather it makes me feel less concerned about doing so. It's not really a 'law' that you cannot use someones wifi anyway, it's part of your comcast contract, but the leecher obviously is not held responsible for this contract. I think it is morally just fine to use someones wifi, with permission.... comcast saying it's against their contract or them being sketchy about their morals isn't gonna sway me one way or another, but it might make someone feel better about doing it. If you are not abusing your service, and staying within your limits, I think that's fine.
    I'm not sure you are being consistent here.

    In your Post #1 you clearly stated/asked, "I have a very biased opinion on this (comcast screws me over enough to not care if I am "stealing" from them, cause they've done it to me), so what do you think? Do, you think it's fair to share your internet with your neighbor? What about if you have one service, and he has the other and you trade... in case one goes down?"

    You are the one who used the word "stealing" which I've never seen used in a discussion that didn't involve morality. Then you asked the question, yet now you admonish members who try to help you sort it out ??

    That's inconsistent logic, my young college friend, (and yes, I did notice the smiley).
    Last edited by inspiredsports; 11-16-2010 at 12:28 PM.
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  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by inspiredsports View Post
    I'm not sure you are being consistent here.

    ...

    That's inconsistent logic, my friend.
    Sorry, I used the term stealing because that is the term comcast would use. I feel fine in my moral analysis of the situation, I was just curious what others thought.

    I am interested in others thoughts, but a few people suggested that I was trying to justify MY stealing/using/borrowing of others internet. I wanted to make it clear that I am using my own internet at present. I do not do it myself, the whole idea of the question came to me when I saw a new SSID, "The Password is Mousepad"

    as for the words you bold faced, yes, I think it is perfectly alright to use the neighbors wifi. Maybe I shouldn't have worded it in a "steal from the thief" sort of way, but I meant to say that my moral theory may be subjective since I have been screwed over by the cable company so many times as to probably not care about ANY 'crimes' committed against them... and certainly not to care about their rules. So, I was simply asking for opinions, and perhaps a friendly debate on morals... I wasn't saying that I need help making a moral decision,,, ya know?
    Last edited by cokewithvanilla; 11-16-2010 at 12:36 PM.

  11. #41

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    Usually people who post these ethical quandries are looking for validation for what they are doing....and generally speaking, if you have to ask the question, you probably already know the answer.

    BDT
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  12. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by cokewithvanilla View Post
    It's too bad this world has gotten so complicated that we, as simple citizens, cannot say with confidence whether or not something is legal.
    No not really. The way I see it is your just trying to justify in your own mind stealing a service. You don't need a specific law all the time to determine right from wrong.

  13. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by TroyD View Post
    Usually people who post these ethical quandries are looking for validation for what they are doing....and generally speaking, if you have to ask the question, you probably already know the answer.

    BDT
    Sorry, I didn't mean to come off that way. I just like ethical debates... and to hear others thoughts on such matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by tonyb View Post
    No not really. The way I see it is your just trying to justify in your own mind stealing a service. You don't need a specific law all the time to determine right from wrong.
    true. But, again, the law isn't black and white and I like legal discussions. Some people answered that they don't think it's wrong to share, and some think it is... just a difference of opinion.

    No, you don't need laws to base morals off of, but sometimes it's good to know where you stand. See, I morally think it is ok to share my internet (which I don't do because of the liability), but legally it is not ok. My morals aren't guided by the law... but it's always good to know the law.
    Last edited by cokewithvanilla; 11-16-2010 at 12:41 PM.

  14. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by cokewithvanilla View Post
    Sorry, I didn't mean to come off that way. I just like ethical debates... and to hear others thoughts on such matters.



    true. But, again, the law isn't black and white and I like legal discussions. Some people answered that they don't think it's wrong to share, and some think it is... just a difference of opinion.

    No, you don't need laws to base morals off of, but sometimes it's good to know where you stand. See, I morally think it is ok to share my internet (which I don't do because of the liability), but legally it is not ok. My morals aren't guided by the law... but it's always good to know the law.
    Your not doing yourself any favors bro, quit before it's too late.

  15. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by cokewithvanilla View Post
    Sorry, I used the term stealing because that is the term comcast would use. I feel fine in my moral analysis of the situation, I was just curious what others thought.

    I am interested in others thoughts, but a few people suggested that I was trying to justify MY stealing/using/borrowing of others internet. I wanted to make it clear that I am using my own internet at present. I do not do it myself, the whole idea of the question came to me when I saw a new SSID, "The Password is Mousepad"

    as for the words you bold faced, yes, I think it is perfectly alright to use the neighbors wifi. Maybe I shouldn't have worded it in a "steal from the thief" sort of way, but I meant to say that my moral theory may be subjective since I have been screwed over by the cable company so many times as to probably not care about ANY 'crimes' committed against them... and certainly not to care about their rules. So, I was simply asking for opinions, and perhaps a friendly debate on morals... I wasn't saying that I need help making a moral decision,,, ya know?
    Got it. I'm just pointing out we can get away with a lot of viewpoints here at CP, as long as we stay consistent with our logic and respect each other's opinions. I think we've done a good job of that so far in this thread.

    My take is that many may have gotten the same impression as Troy, and that perhaps there was a request for moral guidance on your part.

    Usually people who post these ethical quandries are looking for validation for what they are doing....and generally speaking, if you have to ask the question, you probably already know the answer.BDT
    Last edited by inspiredsports; 11-16-2010 at 01:03 PM.
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  16. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by inspiredsports View Post
    Got it. I'm just pointing out we can get away with a lot of viewpoints here at CP, as long as we stay consistent with our logic and respect each other's opinions. I think we've done a good job of that so far in this thread.
    Ha. Sorry, I know I have the tendency to just throw out random thoughts and sometimes they don't all seem to align

    Quote Originally Posted by inspiredsports View Post

    My take is that many may have gotten the same impression as Troy, and that perhaps there was a request for moral guidance on your part.
    yeah, I can see how someone would think that. I should have made it clear sometime early on what I was really looking for
    Last edited by cokewithvanilla; 11-16-2010 at 01:07 PM.

  17. #47

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    Just because the service is there and you can access it doesn't give you the right to use it. The owner of the service paid for it...for their personal use not youre's.
    Just because I leave my car door unlocked does not give you the right go inside.

    In my opinion using your neighbors wireless connection is theft.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TroyD View Post
    Usually people who post these ethical quandries are looking for validation for what they are doing....and generally speaking, if you have to ask the question, you probably already know the answer.

    BDT
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