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Thread: Bass concerns.

  1. #1
    Stronzo
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    Default Bass concerns.

    In a few weeks I will be obtaining my sources, all but completing my audio project. Only one thing left would stand, the sub-woofer.

    Until recently, I have been relatively secure with the thought of purchasing the SVS PB-2. But for 1,250, the small size of my room, and where I live, it may not be the wisest purchase to make. Im thinking more with a "wouldnt it be cool" attitude, vice the "is it really necessary" attitude.

    I then return back to the original idea of the SVS PCi-25. Every review I read seem fairly enthusiastic about this piece of equipment. The majority of reviews by professionals and non-professional's seem to be uni-laterall focused on the deph and loudness of the sub, vice its ability to create bass with finese and grace. The majority of reviewer's also seem to be more focused with HT projects, vice critical listening two channel apps. Those who are seem to describe this sub as impressive, yet "boomy".

    This is leaving me just a tad concerned.

    I am eye-balling the Phase Tech Power 12. I had a chance to listen to this, and was very impressed with its accuracy and ability to just disappear in the room.

    Has anyone had the chance to compare the two? SVS owners, I could really appreciate some feedback here. What rigs are you currently running with your svs? And if you have had a chance to compare your SVS to Phase tech...which models, and impressions please?

    Thank you,

    Regards,

    Sean

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    Sean:

    "Boomy" is usually a trait associated with a pronouned hump in the mid bass range (40-50 Hz). None of the SVS products display this type of frequency response.

    As with any subwoofer, placement experimentation is critical for the best results.

    I have also found that the floor has a tremendous effect on how a subwoofer will sound. My 20-39PC+ is now residing in my friend's house, and he has a wooden floor with a basement below. The house construction is cheap, and the floor flexes like a trampoline when the sub hits hard (that's how strong the Plus driver is).

    Needless to say, the floor and the space below it actually act as a huge speaker, moving air and creating a sound of their own. And yes, it IS boomy, but it's not the fault of the sub because that same sub sounded spectacular in my room with a concrete floor. We are currently working on isolating it from the floor with two 70 pound stacked pieces of slate and this should help things tremendously.

    This digression is just to demonstrate the bad bass can come from things entirely unrelated to the subwoofer itself.

    At any rate, regarding music vs. HT, a subwoofer will sound as it measures. The subwoofer doesn't know or care whether it is being asked to play Das Boot or Bach's Organ Werks. If the sub exhibits a flat frequency response, low THD and IMD at high volumes, deep extension, and a linear FR vs. SPL relationship, it will sound great on any source material.

    Regarding the "musicality" of a subwoofer, here's a quote from Tom Vodhanel, SVS sub designer:

    quote:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The 'musicality' of a subwoofer is dominated by several factors non related to the subwoofer at all (or related incidentally---like a built in XO). The room, the positions of the listening position and position of the subwoofer, the lowpass and highpass XOs used for both the subwoofer and the rest of the speakers, the phasing of the subwoofer relative to the rest of the speakers, and the calibration of the subwoofer.

    The primary factor not related to the listening room or the setup method is simple user preference. The deepest bass has the longest soundwaves...the longer the soundwaves, the more of a bass 'decay' the room will have. Deep bass takes time to decay, that is natural and inherent to the beast. Some folks mistake the longer decay for 'slow' bass...when in fact, it is actually a more faithful reproduction of the source material.

    Then there is an issue of harmonics. Much of the pitch of the musical bass/drum will be determined by the number and amplitude of the harmonics of the fundamentals note played. To some ears, if those harmonics are emphasized...even by a very small amount...the 'pitch' of the bass guitar is made more obvious. The pacing of the bass line(s) become easier to follow...and folks can feel like that aids in the musical nature of the source playback.

    So in the end, the most accurate audio reproduction may not be what someone prefers.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Tom is clearly onto something here, as I personally prefer sound of the PB2+ with all ports open, probably because of the slight emphasis this tune provides in the 25-50 Hz region, possibly making harmonics easier to follow to my ear. However, it could be argued that this tune is technically less "accurate" than the tune with a port plugged, which in comparison displays a slightly flatter response in this region.

    Furthermore, much of the upper harmonics of bass instruments will be played at least as much by the mains as the sub, if you have an 80 Hz or lower crossover and your high pass filter rate is 12 dB/octave. Having a great set of mains and a smooth transition to the sub will play a large factor in your impression of the musicality of a subwoofer.

    Regarding the PB2+ in your room: I don't think you can ever have "too much sub". More woofers equals less excursion for a given SPL. Less excursion equals lower distortion. I listen to music (critical 2 channel and SACD and DVD-A) at pretty moderate levels. I have the PB2+ calibrated about flat for music vice 4-5 dB hot for HT. I can't rave enough about this sub on music; it blends so perfectly with the mains and it sounds exactly like the musical instrument (guitar, kick drum, organ, etc.) Clean beyond words, coherent, detailed, tight - never overbearing, and never drawing attention to itself. This is due to the extraordinarily low distortion the dual Plus woofers offer at almost any playback level. As awesome as my 20-39PC+ was for music, the PB2+ is even better.

    My offer still stands to personally send you a check for up to $35 to cover the return shipping costs of any "Plus" SVS subwoofer if you are not completely satisfied after 44 days of living with it. Go ahead and compare it to the competition in the same room in the same location; it cannot be beat by any OEM sub in the same price range. If you go with a cylinder, I do recommend the 20-39 over the 25-31 solely for the deeper extension in the stock tune.

    The reason I suggest the Plus is because IMO it is the value leader in the entire line-up. The driver is far more capable than the still excellent ISD in the PCi line and the price increase is really modest when you look at all you are getting when you step up to the Plus line.

    Even the ISD offers amazingly low distortion, per the review hotlinked below. But the Plus driver is even better. And two Plus drivers (PB2+) are simply amazing.

    Also hotlinked below is a new review of the 25-31PC+ that you might not have seen yet.

    Doc

    http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...r-12-2002.html

    http://www.hometheatersound.com/equi...2531pcplus.htm
    Last edited by Dr. Spec; 07-12-2003 at 09:59 AM.
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  3. #3
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    Hey Doc, great to see you again... Still doing your daily PB2+ massage therapy I take it?

    ATC,

    I can't reinforce Doc's words on the floor effects enough... When I picked up my CA's in FLA, the owner had them in a second floor room and they sounded awful on any music with decnetly extended bass, but then I noticed the floor moving under my feet as I walked up to them... and I dare say this was no cheap construction house.

    On my concrete ground floor at home they're perfect.
    More later,
    Tour...
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    Default Re: Bass concerns.

    Originally posted by ATCVenom
    Im thinking more with a "wouldnt it be cool" attitude, vice the "is it really necessary" attitude.
    This is the theory of WANT vs. NEED, which my dad has been trying to drill into my head for years. To me........they're the same. :D
    .
    comment comment comment comment. bitchy.
    .
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    Originally posted by Tour2ma
    I can't reinforce Doc's words on the floor effects enough...

    ........they sounded awful on any music with decnetly extended bass, but then I noticed the floor moving under my feet.....

    On my concrete ground floor at home they're perfect.
    There ya have it - straight from tour's mouth (er, fingers). Bad floor = bad bass. Concrete floor = awesome bass.

    Welcome back tour; I trust your trip went as planned and I'm looking forward to a complete report at your leisure.

    Sean:

    Breaking news over at SVS. The much rumored PB2-Ultra has just been announced over at HTF. There has been a beta tester for about a month and SVS finally allowed him to let the cat out of the bag.

    It will use the same enclosure as the PB2-Plus, but will have a furniture grade wood veneer finish instead of the black textured coat on the PB2-Plus. The customer will have a choice of 5 wood stains/finishes.

    Naturally, it will employ two TV-12 Ultra woofers. The port configuration will be the same. The amp will be almost identical, with a few minor tweaks to get the most out of the TV-12, but the power will remain at 900 watts continuous.

    Price is yet to be announced but it will probably check in just under $2,000. Quite a jump from the PB2-Plus, but worth it for the person who wants the ultimate 12" woofer on the planet and a natural wood finish in a box sub.

    Performance won't be dramatically greater than the PB2-Plus, maybe 2 dB more max SPL, with a fractionally better sound quality. Only in a very large room at extreme SPL will the performance edge become apparent. SVS likens it to the difference between the Z06 'vette and the regular 'vette.

    Doc
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen (emullen@svsound.com)
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    Default Re: Re: Bass concerns.

    Originally posted by brettw22
    This is the theory of WANT vs. NEED, which my dad has been trying to drill into my head for years. To me........they're the same. :D
    You want something and you won't be happy without it. If you're not happy you're depressed. If you're depressed you kill yourself, so yes, want and need are the same thing :D

  7. #7
    Stronzo
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    Thanks for the replies gents.

    Brett,

    My father tries to impart the same advice. Hah, It'll never work on me! :)

    In all seriousness, I am taking the opportunity I have now to buy all of my toys while I can. The time for moving into the real world is close by, I want to get my kicks and get my toys before I begin that route.


    Dr.Spec,

    Here is the deal.

    I earn **** for money. That PB-2 equals over two months worth of work. Afraid it simply would not be logical to purchase one right now. The same went for "my" Musical Fidelity gear.

    Another issue is the room. It's fairly small, roughly 15x9. Second story of the home, light carpeting over the wooden floorboards, which are now beginning to creek.

    While it is nice to know your sub has the muscle to produce incredible spl, it's not something I am terribly concerned with. I am not much of a Home-Theater fan either. Though I must admit, the sheer impact of those four 8'' drivers from the 2000p's were amazing.

    It's always a pleasure to read your posts Dr.Spec. I have learned a lot and I do appreciate your efforts in trying to direct myself and others towards solution's.

    What I am about to say is not to be taken as an insult, but just as a note of difference. You say you listen to two channel. Do you do so on another seperate rig? If not, while Im sure your HT rocks, we clearly have entirely different tastes in regards to what we consider a "musical" system.

    I suppose however, in retrospect, I will concede to what creates a musical sub....to a point. Most would never believe that I succesfully integrated a KLH15'' sub with some LSi-9's.......but I did. Sounds absolutely killer. For 250 bucks, Ive found no better value in a sub. Period. I must say, it took a few days to get right.

    Here is the plan of attack I have drawn so far.

    I will go down to the local store, pick up the Phase Tech power 12, assuming the shop will agree to my terms. If not, I will go SVS. If they will, then the sub will be given a series of tests.. and we will see how that goes. If that sub does not satisfy me, I will return it and try my luck with SVS.

    Thanks again bud

    Regards,

    Sean

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    [i]What I am about to say is not to be taken as an insult, but just as a note of difference. You say you listen to two channel. Do you do so on another seperate rig? If not, while Im sure your HT rocks, we clearly have entirely different tastes in regards to what we consider a "musical" system.[/B]
    I don't take it as an insult. I don't have the space or the money for a dedicated two channel rig.

    With that said, I think I have the decent makings of a fine sounding dual purpose system.

    While I will not defend my system as being audiophile grade with separates, etc., consider the following:

    1) The Denon 2900 has a very sophisticated processor and high end DACs and is getting nothing but rave reviews for sound quality from some very experienced owners.

    2) I use reference grade Signal Cable Analog 2 interconnects for stereo, DVD-A, and SACD, bypassing the 3803 entirely, except for the amps.

    3) I use Monster M1.4 bi-wire speaker interconnects.

    4) As Mantis will attest, the 3803 and the Polk RT series is an outstanding sonic match-up. He has extensive experience with all the $1,000 AVRs, and the 3803 has his highest recommendation if mated with the RT series.

    5) For music, I highpass my speakers to a world class subwoofer. This results in three benefits: 1) The bass quality on music far surpasses that of any stand alone tower speaker. 2) The lower midrange clarity is significantly improved due to a large reduction in intermodulation distortion that would otherwise be caused by requiring the RT800i woofer to reproduce deep bass and mid bass at the same time. 3) The dynamic range and upper midrange and treble clarity is also improved by significantly reducing the current load on the amplifiers.

    6) The RT800i is no slouch in the music department. Not too long ago it was Polk's best (current production) non-powered speaker, before the LSi series was released.

    From Stereo Times:
    ==============================================
    Overall, the speakers sounded clear, crisp and well balanced, even at higher volumes. The speakers reproduce a wide dynamic range from the softest sounds to the loudest orchestral peaks without overshadowing the quiet sections or compressing or breaking up during loud passages. Music reproduction is realistic with an accurate and even tonal balance. Recording nuances became discernable enough to allow me to distinguish between the different levels of CD recording quality. This was largely the reason that I have become a big fan of Diana Krall. Her recordings really sound great with these speakers.

    Vocals and midrange instruments sounded natural and detailed -- not too prominent or recessed, nor too bright or too dull. The treble is open, airy, detailed and extended without harshness or roll-off. The speakers have clarity and fine low-level resolution. They reproduce music with speed, accuracy and a natural decay. The image specificity is quite good. Instruments and vocals seemed to originate from precise locations within their spacious soundstages. Dispersion characteristics were impressive as well, both vertically and horizontally. When standing, sitting, or moving about the room, the sound field remained credible.
    ==============================================

    From Home Theater Hi-Fi:
    ==============================================
    In fact, the RT800s sang along effortlessly not only with my beefy Aragon 8008BB, but perfectly in stride with the beautiful, but less powerful, Myryad MI-120, rendering superb lateral image definition rivaling, if not surpassing, my personal reference speakers.

    .....Aside from that, the treble delivers immense detail for the asked rate of exchange. Slightly understated, certainly refined, it has no obvious flaws. The upper mid-range does hold back a little, letting the upper end accept the kudos. The lower mid-range, without significant coloration, remains neutral for the most part until the lower bass........

    .......The overall detail excels. A slight rise in the lower bass adds a sense of body without making vocals overly corpulent. A slight depreciation in the upper mid-range tilts the spectrum so that most recordings and soundtracks will inherently sound more pleasant. Punchy, rich, and smooth, even if not completely accurate, ensures that the opposite, exacerbated by some recordings and/or listening environments, most likely won't occur. Thin and harsh are the audiophile's nightmare. Unless the recordings and components are extremely messed up, it simply won't happen with these speakers.

    They provide refined detail through most of the spectrum, image well, are built well, and will most likely mate favorably with a wide variety of associated equipment. Plus, for a full-range speaker, they're not all that expensive. If you're looking for a pair of new speakers with detailed, amiable sound, a load cooperative with any quality receiver, integrated, or power amp, and plan on dropping about a grand, check these cuties out. Personal preference will vary, but they do what they were designed to do, and they do it well.

    ==============================================

    I think the devil is in the details when it comes to my system for music. At first blush it might seem ho-hum, but look deeper and you will find high quality components from start to finish and no obvious weak links.

    I have heard the LSi15 mated with a B&K AVR507. Yes, it sounded better, and I have a good ear for music and I know when my system is outclassed. But it didn't embarrass my system outright for music, either.

    If we're going to be realistic and stick with Polks, I would say my system sounded 85-90% as good as the LSi and B&K rig. If you want to jump to really high end gear, all bets are off and we both know the LSi line can also be hugely outclassed in its own right.

    I do hope you find what you are looking for in both a subwoofer and a music system. I think your ability to well integrate the KLH sub into your system shows you don't have to spend a fortune on good sound, and that is the whole point of my above post. \

    I suppose I could make the same argument about your KLH subwoofer and say we "clearly have entirely different taste in regards to what we consider to be a 'good' subwoofer". ;)

    Doc
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    I think the world of my RT's and am definetly in the Doc camp on this 1. I don't have a Denon but can say while running my Cal Labs Transport--->Audio Research DAC it is amazing what I hear. From recording to recording I can tell/hear/sense the quality in the recording, mix and whatever was intened by the artist.

    It is absolutely amazing to me the image and clarity I get from this system and could not imagine anything outperforming it when considering the environment that its in. A Non-dedicated HT environment with my fridge, AC/heating and windows all around adding to the noise floor. Someday I'll design a sound room in which I could realy then begin to enjoy a higher end system but for now I'll stay put.

    BTW, even though I think my 800i's really make HT viewing all the better... for 2 channel my RTA8T are the Bomb. What a nice little jewel I have and will never part with them. They are so smooth! Across my system now I cross at 100 Hz for HT and 2 channel and my SV subs blend into the mix and compliment everything I have listened to. With the gain stage of the subsonic filter I can add or take away bass levels at leisure and am becoming more and more familiar with sub system than ever before. Its taken about six months to really understand the power of the SV line and maybe in about 2 years I'll have them mastered. I HAVE ALOT TO LEARN!

    The RT line in my opinion are damn fine speaker systems and great for any environment.

    The SV sub line is world class and can't be easily beaten at the pricepoints we'er talken. Double the price and
    I'm still there.

    HBomb

    BTW... as much as I'm an advocate of simple 12 gauge lamp cord I am running Monster Z Time coherent runs for my mains. Just thought I'd share that little secret on this fine Sunday morning.;)
    Last edited by HBombToo; 07-13-2003 at 11:21 AM.
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  10. #10
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    Doc,

    As you well know, I owned a pair of RT2000p's for quite some time. What attracted me to them was the professional sound. They sounded much different than the rest of the RTxxxi's. Much more profound, alive, and true. I still respected the speakers in the RTxxxi line, far greater than I do the current line.

    They were capable. I found this out when I plugged them into the AMC/Carver seperates. I will never forget my suprise. Wow! What a speaker! My dad played his Eric Johnson at screaching loud volumes on that rig. My mom was awed by Josh Grobans and Charollete Churches voice. She works with many artists who boast incredible audio rigs. She noted how mine was "just as good" as her friends. She even noted that Mr. Hornsby had a pair of 2000p's in his home.

    Believe you me, I know the RTxxxi's as I had another chance to re-visit them with the 600's. I still have great respect for that speaker. However, I felt it was musical, but just not musical enough. I felt, and still feel, there is NO other speaker in the RTxxxi's price that can perform cinema like those can. None.

    As for Denon. I have not heard that specific cdp from Denon. I have heard other players and the 3803 reciever mated with RTxxxi's wired with the Monster M series cables/interconnect's. I think we all know I felt about it. My opinion remains the same.

    Denon has an incredible reputation. If others hear the splendor it can produce, yourself included, than more power to ya. Enjoy! The bottom of the line is Doc, I still believe we have two different taste's and preferences. Which is fine.

    I have not had the opportunity to listen to your rig, in your home. While I have heard many of the components you have listed, it's just not the same and I really cannot comment heavily. However, even if I were to comment after demoing, it would all be irrelevant. It's all in what you go for bud.

    As for Dan. Dan has his strong opinions. Me and him often strongly agree and strongly disagree. Thats just the nature of the beast. Confronting me with Denon products or Polk subs is much like confronting Dan with Carver products or SDA speakers. Like everyone else, we all have our different tastes.

    I feel the LSi's beat out the RTxxxi's on everything but power and spacial imaging. (though the sweet spot on the LSi compinsates for that). Thats just my findings/opinion.

    For what you own and the price payed, Im sure you do have one awesome rig. You can't go wrong with the RTxxxi's. They will sing no matter what. Incredible value in those speakers.

    I do hope I find the sub I am looking for as well. I still have well over a month before I purchase one, and will go over my options again when that time comes.

    As for the KLH. It has many weak points. Why do you think I got rid of it? ;)

    It does what it suppose to do, and with work, you can make it sound incredible, for the $250 face value. A product worth its weight in gold. Anymore, that alone is something to respect.

    My apologies for getting us to ramble on. Good discussion nonetheless.

    My concern about SVS is this. The 2000p's had phenominal bass. Strong, steady, and balanced, until it dropped off. Its big downside, part of the problem with any powered tower was that in blending the bass. It was a pain in the ass. At times it seemed over-powering, other times, under powering. I had to constantly mess with that damn switch. I get this feeling in the pit of my stomach that the SV subs would give me the same issue.

    Regards,

    Sean

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    Originally posted by ATCVenom
    Doc,

    At times it seemed over-powering, other times, under powering. I had to constantly mess with that damn switch. I get this feeling in the pit of my stomach that the SV subs would give me the same issue.

    Regards,

    Sean
    Great post - it's all good. My tastes are certainly more refined than my budget, and I think we both fall into that category. We both have good stuff and by any reasonable measure either system must be regarded as above average, even though individual tastes will vary.

    At any rate, as I stated above, I run my PB2+ calibrated flat for music through the 2900. I run it a few dB hot for HT through the 3803.

    But.....back to your comment. When I was running the sub for both music and HT through my 3803 (with the digital coax vice the Signal Cable), a good yardstick I used was to toggle between the 800's on full range only (Pure Direct Mode) with no sub, and the 800's high passed with the sub in the loop (Stereo Mode).

    The 3803 allows different speaker level settings for each input, so I adjusted the sub level in the Stereo Mode until toggling back and forth yielded an almost identical sound. The SVS blended so well with the 800's, the only time you could tell the sub was running in Stereo Mode was if there was significant signal content below 40 Hz.

    In fact if you got really picky, the 800's have a slight mid bass tubbiness at around 50 Hz that the SVS does not exhibit. The 800's/SVS actually sounded slightly better than the 800's alone in the 40-80 Hz region too.

    In short, once properly calibrated for music, even with an 80 Hz crossover, the 800/SVS combo blended SO well as to be almost indistinguishable from the 800's alone. Only when truly deep bass was present was the SVS evident. I don't think you can give a sub a better compliment for music than that.

    If you have the ability to have a different calibration level for HT and music, you will only need to do this once and forget about it. I never found the urge to fiddle with the sub level for music; it's almost like the sub isn't even running - it just sounds like one truly full range (20-20K) speaker.

    I think HBomb will attest what the SVS has done for his system on music. Even at 80 Hz it cannot be localized, it increases the breadth and depth of the soundstage, it has more accurate and lower distortion bass than the mains, and the improvement in truly deep and clean extension well into the subsonic region will astound you to the point where you swear you are hearing some of your recordings for the first time.

    You've got nothing to lose and everything to gain by comparing a Plus sub to the Phase Tech Power 12. You've got 45 days to evaluate and I'll pay your return shipping up to $35 (that's all my 20-39PC+ costs through UPS) if the SVS doesn't beat the Phase Tech Power 12 in every objective and subjective category.

    All I ask is that you give the SVS "sound" a chance for a few weeks. Many who have been living with a "boomy" sub suddenly ask themselves "where did all the mid bass go?". The SVS might initially sound anemic in comparison because it actually is extremely flat and neutral through the mid bass range and once you grow accustomed to truly accurate bass, lesser subs sound like boomy "one note wonders" in comparison.

    Doc
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen (emullen@svsound.com)
    Director - Technology and Customer Relations
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    Doc,

    This is what I will be running.

    AMC CD8B source
    AMC 1100 Pre
    AMC 2100 amp (will toy with bridging).

    AMC has thus far, provided me with the best value in seperates I have heard.

    The Pre-amp is incredibly basic, meant for stereo use. The only bass control is that little knob. Thats it. I plan on running my sub out of the "pre out".

    Unfortunately, I cannot go PC+. Just a tad more money than I want to lay down. The PCi20-39 is as high as I am willing/able to pay for a sub. The question now becomes:

    PCi 20-39 vs PB-1.

    Space is an issue. I have ordered all my wires to fit with precise accuracy, allowing for comfort room, but no real expansion. This rig is mean to cater to the room I am in. The cylinder may block my ability to add a large tv on top of my stand. Will this possible problem with the cylinder be worth my trouble. What benefits are there in going with the 20-39?

    Thanks for your tolerance bud.

    Regards,

    Sean

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    I ditto ATC's question.

    I am also lookin at SVS subs and I was origionally going to get the PCi 20-39(because of its SPL atvantage over the 16-46, which you told me by the way...thanks!). Anyway, on SVS's website they state that the PB-1 is nearly identical to the 20-39 in all aspects except the enclosure. My room is about 15x12 so I do not feel the need to go up to the PCi plus line.

    I would be running the SvS with RTi150's. I definetely am a bass guy, I listen to alot of techno and I love the pounding bass. I'm pretty sure that space is not an issue, as far as the subs go, but I'm not sure, I'm about to check. Even if I was low on space, I'd find a way to make it work, as I always do :) . So in your oppinion which would be better, the PB 1 or the PCi 20-39? Please list pro's and con's for me if you don't mind.

    BTW I have wood floors over a basement I know it sucks but oh well, it;s not unbareable yet. I can always use slate to isolate the sub right?

  14. #14

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    Originally posted by Airplay355


    BTW I have wood floors over a basement I know it sucks but oh well, it;s not unbareable yet. I can always use slate to isolate the sub right?
    Invest in an SVS and you will be isolating it from your floor

    Trust me and Doc on this:D

    Twin
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    I'm in this boat as well, but I would like to know the overall differences between the PCi 20-39, and the PCi 25-??. Is there a considerable difference? Will the PCi25-?? bottum out on some tracks or does it just skip them? Will the 20-39 dog the 25-??. I know the 25-?? will play louder but how much louder? I plan to get the PCi 20-39, but for that extra 50 bucks, what am I getting?

    I'm also going have to ask what Sean ask. I know you have the scientific data, and the specs, and the emails, and the reviews. The SVS may be accurate to one dude, but another, it may not. All subwoofers do not perform both applications well, Defintive Technology subwoofers are one of them. They are movie subwoofers, very boomy in all sense of the word - Boom. They do not do music worth anything. Then you have the Velodyne HGS series. That does them both well, but still in the music application its slightly boomy.
    Correct me if I'm wrong. But ported designs by specifications are going to always be boomier than the sealed design. In most cases, something being ported can lead to boom. Speakers, not subwoofers are a very good example of this. Sealed designs are more accurate, and have a cleaner midrange than a ported speaker. They also dont have as loud of bass, but tighter, more articulate bass than most ported speakers. The main thing to ported speakers is to play louder with the same amount of watts than a sealed speaker would. Am I right?
    I mean that is why Wilson Audio ported the bass compartments on the X-1. Although that was probally some of the most accurate bass work, not to mention the loudest in music application I have ever heard in my life. lol!
    My point is, I don't see how SVS's entry level subwoofer costing as much as other subwoofers, can be as accurate as say the PB2, or the PC+ line. I can easily imagine that they would sacrifice major control for the boom of shattering SPL.
    Ah Well, I guess I will find out soon enough - I plan to buy the PCi 20-39 at round Christmas time. We will see then. It will be the Accurate M&K vs. The SPL Giant SVS. The victor, who knows....
    Last edited by VR3; 07-13-2003 at 11:08 PM.
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  16. #16

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    The differences in the SVS model sizes are really more shades of grey than stark differences. They all sound more alike than different, but you will notice an increase in deep extension between the models. Remember, there is a 1/3 octave difference between 25 Hz and 20 Hz. You CAN hear this difference if it is present in the source material.

    Here is how the PCi and PB-ISD rank in terms of output vs. extension:

    25-31PCi
    22-31PCi PB1-ISD (tie)
    20-39PCi
    16-46PCi

    There is about a 1.5 dB decrease in maximum output capability each time you increase in cylinder size. This is the slight trade-off for deeper extension.

    The decrease in maximum output capability would only be noticeable at the extreme performance limits of each sub. All of them will cleanly play loud enough to satisfy all but the most ardent bass heads.

    As far as box vs. cylinder, you would be hard pressed to tell the difference in sound quality between the two. They use the same amp, driver, port, and enclosure volume.

    If a box fits better into your room/decor, then by all means get the PB1. It now comes in several very nice colors which give you even more aesthetic flexibility than the big black cylinder.

    Regarding Sid's questions about accuracy going from PCi to Plus to PB2+ to Ultra, etc. SVS spent a great deal of time ensuring that the sonic signature and the frequency response of the same size cylinders (and boxes) would be nearly identical, regardless of the driver used.

    So for example, the following models would display an almost identical frequency response in a given room location:

    20-39 PCi
    20-39 PC-Plus
    20-39 Ultra

    There is nothing sloppy or inaccurate about the PCi line or the Improved Standard Driver. Within their respective limits, the three above subs will sound very similar. The better dB-12 Plus driver and TV-12 Ultra driver have more output capability and lower distortion and will sound fractionally better. But keep things in perspective - ALL the drivers offer very low distortion, as proven by Dr. Johnson's review of the 25-31PCi.

    Regarding Sid's questions about a vented vs. acoustic suspension design, I refer you to the following hotlink for details.

    http://www.adireaudio.com/tech_papers/sub_gd.htm

    The acoustic suspension design holds a theoretical edge in some areas, but this edge is not audible in real world applications IF (and that's a big IF) the vented subwoofer is designed properly. Some of the finest subwoofers in the world are vented. If there was an inherent and audible flaw or problem with a vented design, companies like Aerial and Wilson and SVS would not use it.

    In fact, the vented design has several audible advantages over the sealed design, the most noteworthy being much greater extension, greater SPL capability, and a cooler running drive motor.

    Doc
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen (emullen@svsound.com)
    Director - Technology and Customer Relations
    Specialty Technologies
    SVSound

  17. #17

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    Dude,
    That sealed subwoofer graph reminds me of my M&K! lol!:D
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  18. #18

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    Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
    The SVS may be accurate to one dude, but another, it may not. All subwoofers do not perform both applications well, Defintive Technology subwoofers are one of them. They are movie subwoofers, very boomy in all sense of the word - Boom. They do not do music worth anything. Then you have the Velodyne HGS series. That does them both well, but still in the music application its slightly boomy.
    Accuracy can be defined in objective terms. I think what you mean is that a subwoofer may sound pleasing to one person and not to another. No argument here. We all hear things differently. But in the same breath, when enough people agree that a particular product is outstanding, it probably is.

    No one subwoofer will ever please everyone all of the time. That's why SVS gives you a 45 day no questions asked return policy. All you pay is return shipping. They even handle the paperwork and the pick-up. Although I will say SVS' return rate is so low, they don't even bother to track it.

    The Def Tech Supercube line is overpriced and inferior, pure and simple. According to Tom Nousaine, the $900 Supercube 2 has the following clean output limits (limited to 10% THD):

    Average output 25-63hz: 97 dB
    Output at 25hz: 85dB (what a joke)

    This is no better than the following $200-$250 subs:

    Klipsch KSW10: 97/85
    Phase Tech Power 8: 98/84
    Energy S8.2: 97/82
    Velodyne CT80: 97/81

    The Velo HGS series is being discontinued because of the new Digital Drive series. The HGS is world class and I do not hesitate to recommend the 15 or the 18 (especially the 18). It is being blown out right now at 50% off to clear out inventory.

    Doc
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen (emullen@svsound.com)
    Director - Technology and Customer Relations
    Specialty Technologies
    SVSound

  19. #19
    Stronzo
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    Thanks for the information Dr.

    I will give the SVS20-39 pci cylinder a try when the proper funds arrive.

    I am curious to see just how they will stack up to the RT2000p's bass.

    Thanks for your time. And hell, do you get a comission for your work? ;)

    Regards,

    Sean

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    Originally posted by ATCVenom
    Thanks for the information Dr.

    I will give the SVS20-39 pci cylinder a try when the proper funds arrive.

    I am curious to see just how they will stack up to the RT2000p's bass.

    Thanks for your time. And hell, do you get a comission for your work? ;)

    Regards,

    Sean
    The cylinder is a great choice if you can live with the look. I personally think it's very cool.

    The 20-39PCi will player cleaner, flatter, louder (if need be), and much, MUCH deeper than the RT2000p. The 2000's start to roll off at 35 Hz. The 20-39 enclosure will start to roll-off at about 18 Hz.

    There is an entire world of sound from 35-20 Hz that most people have never heard properly reproduced. Then of course there is the 20-15 Hz region where you will feel it, but not hear a thing - that's pretty remarkable too.

    Oh, and I checked out the Phase Tech Power 12. I've never heard it, but from the specs and the cabinet size, it won't give any SVS much competition. I would say it's comparable to the PSW450 in terms of output and extension. And don't believe that 28 Hz rating for a second - they don't give a -3 dB point along with it, and even if they did, unscrupulous manfacturer's will often rate the extension at ridiculously low volumes. Hell, you can get a tweeter to respond to an 8 Hz signal if you lower the amplitude enough.

    When SVS says the sub is good to 20 Hz, they mean it. It will play flat (or even show a mild gain) to 20 Hz at all volumes within its safe operating range and will give good in room extension at least 3-4 Hz below that point. Expect a -3 dB of 16-17 Hz in-room with the 20-39 enclosure.

    No, I don't get a commission. What I do get is the occasional "thank you" from SVS (and my reviews are posted on their website), and the knowledge that I steered a fellow enthusiast toward what I consider to be the absolute best performance value in OEM subwoofers. I have never had a dissatisfied referral, on the contrary most new owners can't keep their jaw off the floor.

    I think loudspeakers are much farther along than subwoofers in the performance/value curve. The bar is (was) being held ridiculously low by the big name companies like Polk, Infinity, JBL, Klipsch, etc. until SVS and HSU came along and blew it out of the water. Competition breeds improvements and you can see Polk responding by improving its own sub line dramatically in the last year - better woofers, more SPL, deeper extension, double the power.

    The consumer wins when competition is tough. But SVS is presenting a moving target and keeps raising the stakes almost monthly it seems. Three years ago they said they were going to crush the competition and eventually dominate the OEM subwoofer world. The big names laughed. They are now selling THOUSANDS of subs every month. Nobody's laughing anymore except SVS and SV subwoofer owners. Let us know when you eventually pull the trigger.

    Doc
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen (emullen@svsound.com)
    Director - Technology and Customer Relations
    Specialty Technologies
    SVSound

  21. #21

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    I plan to get in on the SVS action. Depends if I can mingle up the cash after Christmas Money! Gotta have da $$$$$$$$
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  22. #22

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    ATC,

    Doc and others sold me on the 20-39 PCi, and as with others, it's just a matter of time before I get one. How long? Not sure yet due to the all-too-familiar insufficient funds story, but all Polkheads out there, especially Doc, will be the first to know when my order is placed.

    KB
    Mains: polkaudio RTi70's (bi-wired)
    Center: polkaudio CSi40 (bi-wired)
    Surrounds: polkaudio FXi30's
    Rear Center: polkaudio CSi30
    Sub: SVS 20-39 PC+
    Receiver: ONKYO TX-SR600
    Display: JVC HD-56G786
    DVD Player: SONY DVP-CX985V
    DVD Player: OPPO DV-981HD 1080p High Definition Up-Converting Universal DVD Player with HDMI
    Remote: Logitech Harmony H688

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    Default hi

    can any one tell how is the bass of sony's dav-c990 is it better then BOSE
    Pakistani

  24. #24

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    Huh, OK -- I have a GREAT feeling that you sir are Mr. WANGOTANGO.....
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