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  1. #121

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    I can understand that. Driving the DA 42% more is adding more bass, like a loudness control. My main concern while I decide if I want to do this mod is what will the bass be like at moderate to loud levels. I can't get my mind around if adding more output in the 15 Hz to about 2 Khz range will make the speaker better. It will certainly change the bass/midrange/treble balance somewhat from the original sound.

    DK, you think the positive benefit is still there when you drive them hard?
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  2. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldmanSRS View Post
    DK, you think the positive benefit is still there when you drive them hard?
    For me it is. I ran the volume up to 110 dB-C and the character of the sound remained the same, it was just louder. The bass never became boomy.

    At 98 dB-C I had to leave the room.

    At 100 dB-C the windows were rattling a little and the hardwood floor was vibrating. I could only be in the room with earplugs.

    At 110 dB-C, the music was still clear, but unbearably loud, even from an adjacent room with earplugs in.

    Stability of sound character will depend a lot on how stable your power amp is when driven hard. The Parasound Halo JC 1 I am using is rated for 800 watts continuous into 4 ohms and 1200 watts into 2 ohms for intermittent peaks.

    I listen at 80 dB-C for casual listening and 85 dB-C for critical listening.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldmanSRS View Post
    Driving the DA 42% more is adding more bass, like a loudness control.
    This was not my experience. As I said before, I felt rather than heard more bass. Loudness controls tend to muddy the sound. Rather than the sound being analogous to turning on a loudness control, what I experienced after the mod was like the effect of adding a clean, tight subwoofer.

    Recall that, if a subwoofer is properly blended in with other speakers, the character of the other speakers does not change, the sound just has more weight and more authority since the foundation of the sound has been reinforced.
    Last edited by DarqueKnight; 03-01-2011 at 09:27 PM.
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  3. #123

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    You have me totally intrigued with this idea. I would prefer to hear more "bass slam" for lack of a better term. I wonder how this would translate to other SDA's as I do not have 1.2TL's.
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    WOW!

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  4. #124

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    It helps. Big time. As I posted a bit earlier on, I've got the Erse inductors in my 1C's. And DK has also changed out his inductors in a pair of CRS+'s, correct? It's a great, cheap mod, at least for the Erse's it was only ~$50 for two of them.
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  5. #125

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    What size inductor would be appropriate for a set of 2.3TL's?
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  6. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by nspindel View Post
    ...DK has also changed out his inductors in a pair of CRS+'s, correct?
    I have modified two of my three CRS+ pairs and I am currently working on the 3rd pair. I also modded my SDA SRS's.

    Link: CRS+ Inductor Upgrade

    Link: SDA SRS Inductor Upgrade
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  7. #127

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    I'm really enjoying listening from the gallery on this subject, and it's really spurred a great deal of study into electrical design. I just want to say thanks for these super informative discussions. They're truly an asset.

    As a side note, DK mentions testing placement of the inductors within the cabinet and the various effects they produced. Is there any potential for benefits of housing the crossover networks externally?
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  8. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by newrival View Post
    I'm really enjoying listening from the gallery on this subject, and it's really spurred a great deal of study into electrical design. I just want to say thanks for these super informative discussions. They're truly an asset.

    As a side note, DK mentions testing placement of the inductors within the cabinet and the various effects they produced. Is there any potential for benefits of housing the crossover networks externally?
    Nearby inductors are coupled because the flux through one induces a current in the other. Note that when you stack two coils together they become a transformer. You can reduce the amount of coupling by (a) moving the inductors farther apart, (b) orienting the inductors so that the coupling is minimized (you can measure the mutual inductance if you buy an LCR meter).
    Last edited by jcandy; 03-02-2011 at 01:08 PM.

  9. #129

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    Quote Originally Posted by newrival View Post
    As a side note, DK mentions testing placement of the inductors within the cabinet and the various effects they produced. Is there any potential for benefits of housing the crossover networks externally?
    Yes. Some speaker manufacturers place their crossover networks in an external enclosure or in a compartment built into the rear of the speaker that opens to the outside.

    I had some concern about the large Solen inductor inducing noise on the other much smaller inductors on my crossover board. Solen replied that, unless I was running several thousand volts through the inductor, crosstalk would be negligible.

    I also did some crosstalk measurements with two stock 16 mH SDA inductors here: Loudspeaker Inductor Crosstalk Measurements.
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  10. #130

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    DK you are still just experimenting with the single large 16mH inductor correct? no one here has any positive outcomes with the 1mH and 2mH inductor change correct?

  11. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by thejck View Post
    DK you are still just experimenting with the single large 16mH inductor correct?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by thejck View Post
    ...no one here has any positive outcomes with the 1mH and 2mH inductor change correct?
    Not that I know of. I do know of cases where people replaced the smaller inductors with a different type, but the same DCR, and it didn't make a difference.
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  12. #132

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    Thanks DK,
    from reading your other very well documented threads these are the values I picked up for the different STOCK inductors
    1. 20GA, 2.0mH, 1.3ohms DCR
    2. 18GA, 1.0mH, 0.7ohms DCR
    3. 18GA, 16mH, 3.5ohms DCR
    Can anyone confirm these numbers? and finally number 3. is the only one recommended to go with a lower DCR (thicker gauge) inductor.

  13. #133

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    Also just as a reference I collected these values for the inductors in the tweeter network
    1.22GA,0.4mH, 0.9ohmDCR
    2.22GA,0.4mH, 0.8ohmDCR
    3.25GA,0.7mH,1.9ohmDCR

  14. #134

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    Ray,

    I am experiencing better detail, refinement (Detail),and the blacks are very black. Of course the lows are better with the new inductor. Ben upgraded my original boards about 18-20 months ago,and he used Dayton caps for the lows,and I used Sonicaps across the board.

    Not sure why this is, I will do an A/B test with both boards today but I'm definitely hearing sounds cleaner and blacker.

    Could it be because we don't have the caps stacked on top of each other to fit on the old boards??
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  15. #135

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    It's because Sonicaps are a superior shunt cap.
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  16. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOOLFORLIFEFAN View Post
    Ray,

    I am experiencing better detail, refinement (Detail),and the blacks are very black.

    Not sure why this is...
    I'm not sure either...and I don't know if it's due to one particular thing or the result of a combination of things: better caps and inductors, better parts arrangement, better PCB with wider, thicker copper traces.
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  17. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    It's because Sonicaps are a superior shunt cap.
    I was wondering about it being a better cap, but these speakers just went up another level when I didn't think that was possible. I expected the deeper bass after Ray's findings but what I am hearing is unreal,the blacks are so rich with precise detail. These speakers have had one hell of a journey in the last two years,and when you think they can't take another step up the chain, you end up with another permagrin going WTH!!! THIS IS AWESOME!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    I'm not sure either...and I don't know if it's due to one particular thing or the result of a combination of things: better caps and inductors, better parts arrangement, better PCB with wider, thicker copper traces.
    I did do an A/B test today and the new boards with the new inductor is by far superior to the old set-up. and I agree, not sure where to pin point it can't really say what the smoking gun is but the sound that is coming out of them is beautiful!!!!

    Thanks again Ray!!!
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  18. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOOLFORLIFEFAN View Post
    I was wondering about it being a better cap, but these speakers just went up another level when I didn't think that was possible. I expected the deeper bass after Ray's findings but what I am hearing is unreal,the blacks are so rich with precise detail. These speakers have had one hell of a journey in the last two years,and when you think they can't take another step up the chain, you end up with another permagrin going WTH!!! THIS IS AWESOME!!!
    Yeah, I thought I would have reached the "end of the road" with my 1.2TL's a long time ago, but they keep getting better:

    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    With proper tweaking, the ages old SDA SRS 1.2TL compares favorably to any high quality audiophile grade loudspeaker.
    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    Long term, I will continue my years long quest to find a loudspeaker I like better than my tweaked SDA SRS 1.2TL's.:)
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  19. #139

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    Thumbs up Solens in the house!!!

    Holy Crap Ray,

    Pictures do not do these monster inductors justice!!





    10awg 16mh these bad boys are also heavy!!!

    Looking forward to install!!
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  20. #140

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    I thought you don't need 10awg? Pretty sure 14awg is plenty, no?
    Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance.

  21. #141

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    Glad you posted those pics TFLF. I don't have a working camera, and you really need to see those with something for scale to get how large they are.

    And then you need to pick up one - 17 lbs!

    I was concerned with their size and weight when I started thinking about where to put them. Didn't want them coming loose when I moved the cabinets. I soldered slightly longer wires to the Xover so I could mount mine on the floor, which turned out to be excellent placement for minimal/no interaction with the metal in the PR, MW magnets, smaller inductors.

    I have 300 hours on the caps/resistors of the new Xover, and 70 hours on the inductors. I'm thinking the BASI's (big a#* Solen inductors :tongue:) will probably need a few more hours to finish cooking.

    My wife and I had a glass of wine (or two) last night while we playing the system. I think the 2.3Tl's are getting better! I'm continually surprised at the richness of the sound, the depth and width of the soundstage, and the layer of details I've never noticed on recordings I'm very familiar with.
    "Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills, polyswitches removed, Lg Solen inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR binding posts, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheets (3" strips) installed on back wall behind MW's & Tweeters, interior of cabinets sealed, AI-1 interface with 1000VA transformer

  22. #142

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    Well I am installing now, I was worried about brace sagging as well posted above somewhere by Ray, and I did not want to drill into the front of the baffle as Ray did (call me anal) well I forgot that one of the added cross bracing I did when I was rebuilding these from the ground up was just under that brace. I had to add a little piece of wood between the two brace's with a little hot glue and I was good to go. I will post a picture later.

    Back to my morning coffee (Starbucks) and work..
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  23. #143

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    Up and running!!! My first impression is positive thus far, the low end at lower volumes is bigger but I am also finding my sound stage a little wider, it also feels as if the music is wrapping around my room better then ever as well. the center stage is much more pronounced I am digging it so far!! I will report more later as I listen to some other music..

    Ray,

    I am not trying to thread jack your thread I just didn't see any reason to start a new thread and nobody here can cover these improvments better then yourself and it's on the same topic..

    Thanks!!
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  24. #144

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    Larry,

    This is good info. Carry on.
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  25. #145

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    If there is improvment with burn-in time with these inductors I don't think I have the strengh for a more permagrin!! It's almost as if they filled in the gaps of your soundstage..

    I never thought Tori Amos could sound any better, the only way I can see it being any better is if she herself was singing in my room. it's insane how good this is.. Yes I listen to Tori Amos the woman is beautiful...

    The Solens are superior to the Northcreeks in a big way..
    Last edited by Toolfan66; 09-24-2011 at 05:16 PM.
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  26. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOOLFORLIFEFAN View Post
    The Solens are superior to the Northcreeks in a big way..
    ...and half the cost!
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  27. #147

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    Which inductors would I need for the 2B TL's?

  28. #148

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOOLFORLIFEFAN View Post
    Yes I listen to Tori Amos the woman is beautiful...
    Have you seen her do Mohammed my Friend with Maynard? Goosebumps...

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  29. #149

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    Default Pics!!!!

    You can see where I added a little piece of oak wood between the cross brace and the added cross brace I had installed.








    I used delrin to make center hubs for the inductors it is nice to work in a shop now and then.
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  30. #150

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    did you have to special order the 16mh 10awg inductor from solen? I dont see it on their website

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