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  1. #151

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    Who here is near Chicago that can hook a brother up? I told him point blank that "You can't make chicken soup out of chicken ****". He needs a better source to move on in his audio journey.

    While he may have agreed, I feel that [collectively] we need to show him the way. Or, at least let him listen to it......
    In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

    "The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction". - Kenneth Swauger

  2. #152

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    Quote Originally Posted by treitz3 View Post
    Who here is near Chicago that can hook a brother up? I told him point blank that "You can't make chicken soup out of chicken ****". He needs a better source to move on in his audio journey.

    While he may have agreed, I feel that [collectively] we need to show him the way. Or, at least let him listen to it......
    Already on it. Sent him a pm.


    He, or anyone else for that matter can drop by my place anytime for anything audio.
    HT Setup... Pioneer Elite SC-37, Polk Audio SDA-SRS 1.2TL's , Oppo BDP 93
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  3. #153

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    I am near Chicago but our RAS won't be having a meet for a few months. But Newrival is welcome to one of our gatherings. We have a plethora of rigs and dac's to sample.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

  4. #154

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    Snow,

    I wasn't concerned at all that you haven't help me. I just said you hadn't adding anything beneficial. You only came and crashed my thread. Which is fine, it led to some lively debate, which I always enjoy. You just challenged me from the start regardless of my meeting nearly all of your incessant demands.

    Moving forward, I feel at this point, listing all the combinations of amps and components isn't going to help too much. So I'm going to list what I've got, and the Carvers I have access to and you can tell me what to try. That is, as long as you can take my opinions as opinions and try to keep as open a mind as I am. Fair enough?

    current equipment as It is/will be set up.

    Empire 598 mkIII Troubadour TT w/ Denon dl-160 or Ortofone Blue (havent tried this one yet)
    DIY tube phono stage
    Denon 2910 SACD
    HTPC custom built
    Audible Illusions Modulus 3b (tube pre)
    KnuKonceptz eKs IC's (I have others too)
    Peachtree DAC (borrowing), some tube DAC available too

    carvers available to me:
    tfm-55
    2.0t (i think, maybe it's a 2.5t?)
    design is where science and art break even.

  5. #155

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    h9, what is RAS?
    design is where science and art break even.

  6. #156

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    I will admit the 555 is clean that is for sure!! Again as soon as my arm is out of a sling I also can bring the jolida cd100 with ei tubes. For a source as wellI

    Anytime on the carver amazing. They are not in the most optimal room but they do sound good!! If we figure out an easy way to pull them from the basement we could bring them to your rig also. Again rotator cuf surgery limits me a bit on what I can pick up. Hopefully one more week in the sling then they should start working on stregnth.

  7. #157

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    Quote Originally Posted by newrival View Post
    . . . Moving forward, I feel at this point, listing all the combinations of amps and components isn't going to help too much. So I'm going to list what I've got, and the Carvers I have access to and you can tell me what to try. That is, as long as you can take my opinions as opinions and try to keep as open a mind as I am. Fair enough?

    current equipment as It is/will be set up.

    Empire 598 mkIII Troubadour TT w/ Denon dl-160 or Ortofone Blue (havent tried this one yet)
    DIY tube phono stage
    Denon 2910 SACD
    HTPC custom built
    Audible Illusions Modulus 3b (tube pre)
    KnuKonceptz eKs IC's (I have others too)
    Peachtree DAC (borrowing), some tube DAC available too

    carvers available to me:
    tfm-55
    2.0t (i think, maybe it's a 2.5t?)
    Someone's signature (I can remember who at this late hour) states, "Everything Matters"

    Clean Power, Power Cables, IC's and Speaker Cables, Fresh Caps, etc. in components, knowledge of Output Impedance of components, Current Capacity of amp, Speaker Impedance, on and on.

    You can get good results from an ecclectic collection of most components when you are hitting on all of the above, and stellar results with the right selection of components.

    I'm guessing due to the age of the Carver amps (and with everything else in good shape), you have only a 50/50 chance of the amps sounding great if you don't send them out for caps and power supply upgrades. You can't expect 20+ year old gear to sound great if it's not up to spec.
    Last edited by inspiredsports; 12-23-2010 at 01:16 AM.
    VTL ST50 w/mods/RCA6L6GC/TlfnknECC801S
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  8. #158

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    Quote Originally Posted by newrival View Post
    Snow,

    I wasn't concerned at all that you haven't help me. I just said you hadn't adding anything beneficial. You only came and crashed my thread. Which is fine, it led to some lively debate, which I always enjoy. You just challenged me from the start regardless of my meeting nearly all of your incessant demands.
    Simply not true.

    REGARDS SNOW
    Well, I just pulled off the impossible by doing a double-blind comparison all by myself, purely by virtue of the fact that I completely and stupidly forgot what I did last. I guess that getting old does have its advantages after all :D

  9. #159

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    Quote Originally Posted by inspiredsports View Post

    I'm guessing due to the age of the Carver amps (and with everything else in good shape), you have only a 50/50 chance of the amps sounding great if you don't send them out for caps and power supply upgrades. You can't expect 20+ year old gear to sound great if it's not up to spec.
    Agreed 100% Actually I mentioned this to him as a possible reason why he was having the problems he was in post #17 but he said this.

    I just said you hadn't added anything beneficial. You only came and crashed my thread. Which is fine, it led to some lively debate, which I always enjoy. You just challenged me from the start regardless of my meeting nearly all of your incessant demands.
    Yes I know my incessant demands of wanting to know what your gear that you were using so I could help was too much


    REGARDS SNOW
    Last edited by snow; 12-23-2010 at 01:32 AM.
    Well, I just pulled off the impossible by doing a double-blind comparison all by myself, purely by virtue of the fact that I completely and stupidly forgot what I did last. I guess that getting old does have its advantages after all :D

  10. #160

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    I think it's 'a silk purse out of a sows ear' Tom, but I'll roll with it.

    Are we done here yet?

    Cheers,
    Russ

    P.S. My dad can beat up YOUR dad.
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.

  11. #161

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    Quote Originally Posted by newrival View Post

    Moving forward, I feel at this point, listing all the combinations of amps and components isn't going to help too much. So I'm going to list what I've got, and the Carvers I have access to and you can tell me what to try. That is, as long as you can take my opinions as opinions and try to keep as open a mind as I am. Fair enough?

    current equipment as It is/will be set up.

    Empire 598 mkIII Troubadour TT w/ Denon dl-160 or Ortofone Blue (havent tried this one yet)
    DIY tube phono stage
    Denon 2910 SACD
    HTPC custom built
    Audible Illusions Modulus 3b (tube pre)
    KnuKonceptz eKs IC's (I have others too)
    Peachtree DAC (borrowing), some tube DAC available too

    carvers available to me:
    tfm-55
    2.0t (i think, maybe it's a 2.5t?)
    Well I dont know jack about TT'S so I cant help you there, what I would reccomend is try to keep it as simple as possible at least at the beginning, easier to pick out an offender this way.

    Maybe try the TFM-55 with the Denon 2910 SACD and the Audible Illusions Modulus 3b (tube pre) and then switch out IC's to see if one mates better than another, if that doesnt work then I would sell something extra I had and buy a Carver C-1 pre to go with the TFM-55 and your Denon-2910 if it still sounds bad try another source. If you still cant get any joy then it may be that the Carver sound simply isnt pleasing to your ears and thats ok also we dont all like the same sound.

    REGARDS SNOW
    Well, I just pulled off the impossible by doing a double-blind comparison all by myself, purely by virtue of the fact that I completely and stupidly forgot what I did last. I guess that getting old does have its advantages after all :D

  12. #162

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    Quote Originally Posted by newrival View Post
    h9, what is RAS?
    RAS = Rockford Audio Society.
    Make yourself necessary to someone. Ralph Waldo Emerson

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  13. #163

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    The Denon has to go.

    What other interconnects do you have?
    I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.

  14. #164

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    Quote Originally Posted by RuSsMaN View Post
    I think it's 'a silk purse out of a sows ear' Tom, but I'll roll with it.

    Are we done here yet?

    Cheers,
    Russ

    P.S. My dad can beat up YOUR dad.
    Is there a time limit? If this thread isn't inconveniencing you, I say let it ride until it dies. If you're done with it, that's fine. I'm still going to try the amps and post on my findings. Additionally, I'm going to continue to reply to anything I find interesting.
    design is where science and art break even.

  15. #165

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    That was going to be my next question: "Do I need to have a Carver pre to really get the best out of them?" It would stand to reason, seeing as how they could have been developed in tandom or at least used during testing. I'll see if I can find someone thats got one.
    design is where science and art break even.

  16. #166

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    Quote Originally Posted by newrival View Post
    That was going to be my next question: "Do I need to have a Carver pre to really get the best out of them?" It would stand to reason, seeing as how they could have been developed in tandom or at least used during testing. I'll see if I can find someone thats got one.
    No, but the pre is just as important as the amp. A poor choice/match with a pre-amp might not give the results you are looking for.

    There are no easy answers in this hobby and it comes down to a certain amount of trial and error if you are looking for the best possible system based on your likes and dislikes.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

  17. #167

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    Quote Originally Posted by concealer404 View Post
    The Denon has to go.

    What other interconnects do you have?
    Don't like my IC's??

    I thought they were pretty decent. Theyre perhaps not some esoteric brand but they are silver.

    The other options are kind of endless, and I won't know what are available until I go digging through his racks of cables. Sorry
    design is where science and art break even.

  18. #168

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    Quote Originally Posted by newrival View Post
    they are silver.
    Silver sounds different that Copper.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

  19. #169

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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    No, but the pre is just as important as the amp. A poor choice/match with a pre-amp might not give the results you are looking for.

    There are no easy answers in this hobby and it comes down to a certain amount of trial and error if you are looking for the best possible system based on your likes and dislikes.

    H9
    I agree. And thats really how I've approached it for a while. I experiment a lot. Switching this for that, etc. The problem was that when I had the Carvers, I didn't keep anything. If after I tried it in all conceivable combinations with the gear I had and didn't like it, I'd sell it. I know there a re a few guys around here that have shelves fll of pres and amos and cables and sources, I just was never the person, and I think that makes my process a difficult one. FOrums like this are beneficial because there are people that have tried several different combinations and have found ones that work. Many of those times it was using gear that is somewhat common, and easily attainable, in the used market. If people throw some well matching associated gear out there, I'm willing to try it. Like the suggestion of the C-1 with the tfm-55. That's a good lead. I've got have the equation already and finding the c-1 may not pose too much of a problem.

    I care enough about this topic that I'm willing to try suggestions that I can manage with little monetary investment. The good thing is that Carver prices are somewhat reliable, it seems, and so resale should be easy if I need to pick up a C-1.
    design is where science and art break even.

  20. #170

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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    Silver sounds different that Copper.

    H9
    Oh, I forgot, I do have some AudioQuest copper IC's. I know those arent the greatest thing on Earth but I see that there are people here that use and like them.
    design is where science and art break even.

  21. #171
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    Ditto on the pre-...

    newrival,
    As has been stated the life a given Carver amp has lived and luck of the draw will go far in deteriming your listening experience, but also know that there were more than one version within many Carver lines.

    From an old thread...
    Quote Originally Posted by Tour2ma View Post
    I spent many happy years with my M-1.5t/ SDA-SRS combo. Then my 1.5 had to go in for repair (Carver Corp was still in the repair biz back then). The repair price included updating my original series 1.5 to the third and final series version. The improvement was startling.... smoother... more open... more detailed.... The experience opened my ears to other possibilities. Then this place blew the lid off...

    Bottom line.... The Carver - SDA combo is good, no doubt about it, and ranks well on any value scale, but there is better. So when you can, as you can afford to, look for better.
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
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  22. #172

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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    Silver sounds different that Copper.

    H9
    Damn sure does, and IMO doesn't really work well unless you have a component that is "soft" or too laid back. Silver definitely has a different sound and to my ears, too bright in almost every application.

    Cables matter. Everything matters

  23. #173

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    Silver, generally speaking, also has less bass and less bass extension, in my experience.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

  24. #174

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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    Silver sounds different that Copper.

    H9
    That's what i was going for. Again, as i said earlier in this thread, all ears are different, but i haven't found a silver cable in my setup that i liked. (No offense meant to Ben.)

    I like a warm, lush, full sound, even if it possibly means it comes at the expense of the best sparkling highs ever. Copper is what calls to me.

    Try the Audioquest cables you have, and see what you think. If they're lower than Sidewinders, i'd at least give Sidewinders a shot and see what you think. If you dont like them, Sidewinders rarely last more than a day in the for sale forum here before they're gone. Easy sell.

    Start there, go up. You can pry my Scarlet Vipers from my cold, dead hands.
    I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.

  25. #175

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    Quote Originally Posted by vc69 View Post
    Damn sure does, and IMO doesn't really work well unless you have a component that is "soft" or too laid back. Silver definitely has a different sound and to my ears, too bright in almost every application.

    Cables matter. Everything matters
    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    Silver, generally speaking, also has less bass and less bass extension, in my experience.

    H9
    Ditto to both of the above.
    I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.

  26. #176

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    I have to say this as well... That AI pre isn't going to let the TFM shine like it could. There are several bottlenecks in front of it.

  27. #177

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    I forgot to mention last night that if you don't want to tackle the crossover upgrades yourself, we have a gentleman here that has done many crossover upgrades and he could do it for you. I'm sure you've seen him around the forum, his name is Ben.
    In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

    "The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction". - Kenneth Swauger

  28. #178

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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    No, but the pre is just as important as the amp. A poor choice/match with a pre-amp might not give the results you are looking for.

    There are no easy answers in this hobby and it comes down to a certain amount of trial and error if you are looking for the best possible system based on your likes and dislikes.

    H9
    Agreed there are some very nice pre's that you can use with the TFM-55

    Quote Originally Posted by newrival View Post
    I agree. And thats really how I've approached it for a while. I experiment a lot. Switching this for that, etc. The problem was that when I had the Carvers, I didn't keep anything. If after I tried it in all conceivable combinations with the gear I had and didn't like it, I'd sell it. I know there a re a few guys around here that have shelves fll of pres and amos and cables and sources, I just was never the person, and I think that makes my process a difficult one. FOrums like this are beneficial because there are people that have tried several different combinations and have found ones that work. Many of those times it was using gear that is somewhat common, and easily attainable, in the used market. If people throw some well matching associated gear out there, I'm willing to try it. Like the suggestion of the C-1 with the tfm-55. That's a good lead. I've got have the equation already and finding the c-1 may not pose too much of a problem.

    I care enough about this topic that I'm willing to try suggestions that I can manage with little monetary investment. The good thing is that Carver prices are somewhat reliable, it seems, and so resale should be easy if I need to pick up a C-1.
    The C-1 is a very very good pre for the money and has stood the test of time and many more expensive pre's have had their ass handed to them in my system, there are of course is always better ones out there but not many if any for the money involved. Also the C-1 is made to match up with the TFM-55 on a signal voltage level which can make a huge difference in how an amp sounds.

    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    Silver, generally speaking, also has less bass and less bass extension, in my experience.

    H9
    No doubt it has been my experience also, Some can sound very good with no noticable loss of bass but there the higher dollar ones ive tried.

    Quote Originally Posted by treitz3 View Post
    I forgot to mention last night that if you don't want to tackle the crossover upgrades yourself, we have a gentleman here that has done many crossover upgrades and he could do it for you. I'm sure you've seen him around the forum, his name is Ben.
    Great idea

    REGARDS SNOW
    Well, I just pulled off the impossible by doing a double-blind comparison all by myself, purely by virtue of the fact that I completely and stupidly forgot what I did last. I guess that getting old does have its advantages after all :D

  29. #179

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    Audible Illusions Modulus 3b (tube pre? thats a decent pre in my opinion with the right tubes should sound better then a c1.?

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    Quote Originally Posted by vc69 View Post
    Damn sure does, and IMO doesn't really work well unless you have a component that is "soft" or too laid back. Silver definitely has a different sound and to my ears, too bright in almost every application.

    Cables matter. Everything matters

    +1 and then some. for my ears, silver is a fail
    Theater - Polk LSi15, LSiC, LSi9 speaks, DIY Sub (142.5L box, SVS plus driver, 500 Watt plate amp)...Outlaw 990 pre/pro, Carver TFM45, 2 X Outlaw M200 . Rotel RB980 . PS3, Monster 3600 power center

    2 Channel -
    Anthem Pre 2l, Jolida JD100 CD player, CAL Sigma DAC, Carver m4.0, Polk LSi9 w external modified Crossovers (thanks Trey!)

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