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  1. #241

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    Quote Originally Posted by FTGV View Post
    By definition an integrated amp is a preamp and amp integrated into a single chassis. So other than eliminating the need for an extra set of interconnects the active circuit signal path hasn't been reduced. The exception is the rarity of an amp that simply uses a passive attenuator at its input in lieu of the normal gain or buffer stage.
    Yes and no. Some integrated amps are two box units having separate power supplies. As for the signal path, some shortening of the path can be expected as things tend to be a bit more compact. The additional advantage to an integrated is complete synergy.
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  2. #242

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    I see what you're saying FTGV. I think that was perhaps their point in that you're eliminating 3 variables: the output connection to the IC, the IC cable, and the IC connection to the input. What type of gain that actually gives you, I don't know. It was just the author's contention, as I understood it, that any variable you can remove was a benefit to the system. I'm not saying that I'm buying it, but it was interesting.

    It also occurs to me that an integrated makes it difficult for component swapping/testing, etc.
    design is where science and art break even.

  3. #243

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    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    Yes and no. Some integrated amps are two box units having separate power supplies. As for the signal path, some shortening of the path can be expected as things tend to be a bit more compact. The additional advantage to an integrated is complete synergy.
    Good points. I hadn't realized about the separate power supplies. The synergy point seems an important one. Some one could say that purchasing matched components could give you the same effect, but then you may be using different IC's than used in R&D/testing.

    I guess the most obvious benefit of integrateds is price, I had never given any consideration to there being any other benefits until the article.
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  4. #244

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    Quote Originally Posted by newrival View Post
    Good points. I hadn't realized about the separate power supplies. The synergy point seems an important one. Some one could say that purchasing matched components could give you the same effect, but then you may be using different IC's than used in R&D/testing.
    Yep.

    I guess the most obvious benefit of integrateds is price, I had never given any consideration to there being any other benefits until the article.
    You might want to reconsider that one. http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....aku-Integrated
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  5. #245

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    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    You might want to reconsider that one. http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....aku-Integrated
    hahaha! no kidding!

    I guess I meant to say relative to if you had to build the same exact integrated as separates.
    design is where science and art break even.

  6. #246

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    Although, F1, that seems too good of a deal for you to pass up! $70k off. Thats quite a sale. lol
    design is where science and art break even.

  7. #247

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    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    Yes and no. Some integrated amps are two box units having separate power supplies.
    Thats an extreme exception and while there may be others I can only think of maybe someone like Musical Fidelity that has actually done that.
    As for the signal path, some shortening of the path can be expected as things tend to be a bit more compact.
    Sure but the quantity of active gain devices and passive components in the signal path will not necessarily be lower.
    The additional advantage to an integrated is complete synergy.
    One would hope.

  8. #248

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    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    Yep.



    You might want to reconsider that one. http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....aku-Integrated
    I got a kick out of the seller's comment, "Since it was sold (but never used) there is no factory warranty, but at this price ($49,500 USD) you can't go wrong."
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  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by FTGV View Post
    On the other hand the amp is dealing with low impedances that can vary widely with frequency and can present a reactive instead of a purely resistive load.The pre has a comparitively easy job of driving the >10k ohm typical input impedance of an amp.
    Point taken… and there are other factors as well, e.g., VC temperature. I do tend to focus more on the line level, and lower, sensitivity to outside interferences.
    Quote Originally Posted by newrival View Post
    …author contends that they now prefer integrated power amps due the shortened and more direct signal path. Any thoughts on this?
    Firstly, you throw away the opportunity to spend an obscene amount of money on a pair of interconnects…

    Seriously, the author’s findings are not a new take on integrated amps. It’s the only real advantage they can claim. IMO the disadvantages are greater, e.g., the amp section compromising the pre’s signal. Bad integrateds add circuitry to compensate for this proximity. Good integrateds go to great lengths, many listed by F1, to separate the two within one box… not a logic I can get my bean around. One final factor for me has always been on the repair side… the more that’s in a box, the more you have to replace or do without when repair time comes.

    I’m not saying that there are not great integrateds… just not a route that does not interest me.
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  10. #250

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    the amp section compromising the pre’s signal. Bad integrateds add circuitry to compensate for this proximity. Good integrateds go to great lengths, many listed by F1, to separate the two within one box… not a logic I can get my bean around.
    Where did you come up with that one?

    The real noise issues are the transformers. Some remove them from close proximity to the other circuits by placing them in a separate box. Another method used by some on integrated's, separate amps and pre amps is to shield the hell out of the transformers.

    One final factor for me has always been on the repair side… the more that’s in a box, the more you have to replace or do without when repair time comes.
    Just because there is more in the box does not mean that there is more to replace....c'mon.

    If your separate amp or pre amp needs repair at the shop and you don't have another, you're still without tunes.

    Your logic here fails me Bruce.
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  11. #251

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    Quote Originally Posted by newrival View Post
    You have got to be freaking kidding me.

    Snow, apparently I gave you too much credit. I thought that when I wrote "Carver sucks... just kidding"
    you'd be able to understand that it was an obvious, blatant, unabashed joke. You do understand what "just kidding" means, right? I don't know what is up with you. Maybe the lack of sunlight, or cold weather, or who-knows-what has made you an insufferable wet-blanket of a human being. Lighten up and enjoy life, man.

    You weren't correct in any of your assumptions.

    You said I was just trying to brand bash and had no intention to find out how to make it better. There are 8 pages here proving you wrong.

    You said that I never had all the SDA's I had. Again you were proven wrong.

    You said I wouldn't try the amps again. You were proven wrong once again.

    You tell me I was just looking for a fight. Again proven wrong considering no matter how much you tried to instigate me with you're thread crashing and name calling, I never stooped to your childish level of behavior.

    You challenged me at every turn, and you were met with sound logic and more respect than you deserved.

    You accused me of being a troll, yet as others have pointed out, you were the only one exhibiting such behavior. You focused all your energy on me telling me what I was insinuating or what my intentions were, and completely disregarding my actual words. I never, ever said that Carver sucks (except in jest), but others did. Yet who's ass did you attempt to crawl up because of it?

    Obviously, I am not the only person that feels this way as over a dozen people have echoed my sentiments on this thread. Like I've said all along, if they sound good to you, great! I gave my opinion and stated that it was just that, an OPINION. I'm entitled to it, just as you are to yours, even if yours comes in the way of a childish tantrum with name calling. I have expended more patience on you than you deserve, and I'm done with the niceties. Faced with facts, you cross your arms and pout like some indignant child. The strangest thing about this is that I have a feeling you're twice my age.

    But I've given you more of a response than I should have.

    Sincerely, I wish the Best to you in the new year, and hope that you find some way to through whatever you're dealing with.
    Wow either you are the most dense person I have ever encountered or your simply too stupid to figure out why I have said what I did, btw half of the crap you blubbered about in this post are lies.

    REGARDS SNOW
    Well, I just pulled off the impossible by doing a double-blind comparison all by myself, purely by virtue of the fact that I completely and stupidly forgot what I did last. I guess that getting old does have its advantages after all :D

  12. #252

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    You say in your intial post that Carver gears sucks especiialy for the money spent you then state that your going to try it again and that you want help with it, I then offer my assistance here.

    If it still sucks after you get it hooked up then list your components and I will assist in any way I can to help you achieve the sound your looking for, if it still sucks to your ears after everyone here offers suggestions and you simply dont like the sound thats fine we dont all like the same sound.

    Merry Christmas to you and yours.

    REGARDS SNOW
    So you get it hooked up it doesnt sound as good as you would like but instead if asking for help now that you have tried it, you state that it isnt for you therby re affirming your intial post that Carver gear is overpriced compared to other gear.

    I still contend they are overpriced in the 2nd hand market. Not because they're THAT bad, but because of their realative price to amps with equal or better quality
    If your intial goal was to attempt to have Carver gear sound better as you have stated then after the testing was done on this last round you would then ask for help, but no you simply give up and say it isnt for you, obviously to me you dont want help now making it sound better now nor did you want help in the first place, by going through the motions of setting up this listening session you have only proved to yourself once again that Carver isnt for you if indeed you set this up at all.

    They sound a little better than I remember them sounding but I don't think they are for me.
    This echos what you said in your first post, hence why I said what I said here

    Well it sems to me that I was correct in my intial assumption that the OP didnt want help with making his carver gear sound better, he has simply re affirmed his intial post that Carver gear sucks for the money it costs is all.

    No mention of wanting further help.

    Now can you see my point?

    REGARDS SNOW
    Last edited by snow; 01-02-2011 at 01:40 AM.
    Well, I just pulled off the impossible by doing a double-blind comparison all by myself, purely by virtue of the fact that I completely and stupidly forgot what I did last. I guess that getting old does have its advantages after all :D

  13. #253

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    As Heiney and Troy mentioned earlier, the preamplifier stage is more important. Why people are surprised when a SS preamplifier sounds good is odd. It's like as soon a individual finally gets tubes in their system they think everything now needs a tube(CDP, Amplifier, DAC, etc). I believe most of the time it's because they've never heard a good SS pre in the first place. There are a bunch of really good SS preamplifiers in the wonderful world of audio. My favorite is when they're referred to as being "tubey"....as if its not possible to just sound like what something actually is anymore.

    You constantly need to recheck your opinions in this hobby as times change, gear changes and you never know, you may have simply missed something a long time ago. I've had this happen to me at least 3 times over the years.
    Last edited by dorokusai; 01-02-2011 at 01:29 AM.

  14. #254

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    Quote Originally Posted by dorokusai View Post
    You constantly need to recheck your opinions in this hobby as times change, gear changes and you never know, you may have simply missed something a long time ago. I've had this happen to me at least 3 times over the years.
    I agree 100%

    thats why i even started this whole exercise. I partially wish I had the money and the space to keep every piece of gear I've ever had so I could try them with all the new gear in different combinations.

    The modulus is the only tube pre I've ever had. I'm beginning to think that the reason I liked it was because it recessed the highs, which could've been exaggerated from the silver cables that were just pushing the brightness a little too far.
    design is where science and art break even.

  15. #255

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    Quote Originally Posted by snow View Post
    You say in your intial post that Carver gears sucks especiialy for the money spent you then state that your going to try it again and that you want help with it, I then offer my assistance here.
    Show me where? Find it and quote me where I said Carver sucks.

    You've said that I've said it, so show me how wrong I am. Also, show me where I lied. Since half of my blubbering has been lies it should be easy to point out. Much like how I have pointed out where YOU were wrong the whole way through.

    Put your money where your mouth is. Your as big a troll as I've ever seen on this forum. It seems you like to crash lots of threads like this, As if your opinion is so much better than anyone elses. Get a life, dude.
    design is where science and art break even.

  16. #256

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    Damn, I'm out of popcorn!
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  17. #257

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    Quote Originally Posted by newrival View Post
    Show me where? Find it and quote me where I said Carver sucks.

    You've said that I've said it, so show me how wrong I am. Also, show me where I lied. Since half of my blubbering has been lies it should be easy to point out. Much like how I have pointed out where YOU were wrong the whole way through.

    Put your money where your mouth is. Your as big a troll as I've ever seen on this forum. It seems you like to crash lots of threads like this, As if your opinion is so much better than anyone elses. Get a life, dude.
    Perhaps the word "Sucks" was not in your intial post but the implications that it was inferior to other gear priced the same sure was which in essence means it sucks.

    Why do I see so many SDA and SRS owners with Carver amps? Don't get me wrong I've owned my share: m400, m400t, 1.5t, 4.0t, tfm-35, tfm-55 (borrowed for 8 months). But seriously, I don't get what people see in these. Is it the wattage sticker? their lean, uncontrolled, and sometimes down-right flabby bass? I know Polk SDA's and SRS's arent the definition of transparent speakers, but still, they're transparent enough to let me know these are amps meant for lesser speakers. I get that this is all subjective, but I see the money people are spending on these things and I can't help but think, "you have to be joking." I will say, I've heard the Silver 7's (tubes) and I think they sound great. better than any other tube amp i've heard, including the Marantz 9's (another amp I don't get). Additionally, these comments do not apply to Sunfire kit. Thats like a whole other league above. But anyways, if these amps were selling for 160-200 bones, fine. That seems like a fair second hand price. But when someone is paying $500-$1k for these things... i dont get it. For 500-1k you're in reach of some mighty fine amps.
    Weak flabby uncontrolled bass
    I know Polk SDA's and SRS's arent the definition of transparent speakers, but still, they're transparent enough to let me know these are amps meant for lesser speakers.
    But anyways, if these amps were selling for 160-200 bones, fine. That seems like a fair second hand price. But when someone is paying $500-$1k for these things... i dont get it. For 500-1k you're in reach of some mighty fine amps.
    Sounds pretty sucky to me

    Lies?

    Yes lie 1 here.

    You said that I never had all the SDA's I had
    I never said that, do you need more proof?



    REGARDS SNOW
    Well, I just pulled off the impossible by doing a double-blind comparison all by myself, purely by virtue of the fact that I completely and stupidly forgot what I did last. I guess that getting old does have its advantages after all :D

  18. #258

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    Quote Originally Posted by snow View Post
    Perhaps the word "Sucks" was not in your intial post
    Thank you for finally admitting it.

    Quote Originally Posted by snow View Post
    Sounds pretty sucky to me
    Well now that's you saying it, not me.
    I had many other amps that sounded like they had weak and flabby bass, but they were cheaper, and I never said they sucked either. I also said my Parasound had some grainy wekness to it. Does that mean it sucks? Not hardly. Pleas refrain from trying to read between the lines.

    Quote Originally Posted by snow View Post
    Lies?

    Yes lie 1 here.



    I never said that, do you need more proof?

    REGARDS SNOW
    I think you're right on this one. I dont think you actually said that.I confused you with someone else. Sorry.
    OK so yes I'll need more proof. I conceed to that one but that one thing is hardly half of the things i said.
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    Just chiming in.....I think after reading your initial post, it's pretty reasonable to conclude that your opinion is that Carver sucks. You may not have said 'sucks', but semantics aside, it's a pretty reasonable conclusion to draw.

    On to more important topics, I agree with Mark, it's WAY too easy to get hung up on tubes....and I think we've all been there. It's like vinyl.....there is a lot more s@#$$y vinyl out there than people are willing to admit. There is crappy gear out there both tubes and SS. If anything, bad tube gear sounds a little better than crappy SS gear. However, some of my favorite tube gear....I don't think has much of a 'tube' signature at all. It's more a result of good engineering and execution than of species. YMMV.

    BDT
    Last edited by Kenneth Swauger; 01-02-2011 at 08:44 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorokusai View Post

    You constantly need to recheck your opinions in this hobby as times change, gear changes and you never know, you may have simply missed something a long time ago. I've had this happen to me at least 3 times over the years.
    This is absolutely true, especially for the more hard core in this hobby.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

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    Quote Originally Posted by newrival View Post
    Thank you for finally admitting it.



    Well now that's you saying it, not me.
    I had many other amps that sounded like they had weak and flabby bass, but they were cheaper, and I never said they sucked either. I also said my Parasound had some grainy wekness to it. Does that mean it sucks? Not hardly. Pleas refrain from trying to read between the lines.



    I think you're right on this one. I dont think you actually said that.I confused you with someone else. Sorry.
    OK so yes I'll need more proof. I conceed to that one but that one thing is hardly half of the things i said.
    Sorry to dissapoint you but im not going to continue to fight with you over this, even a blind man could see what I have said is the truth. If you wish to continue on with your game feel free but I wont be there to play.



    REGARDS SNOW
    Well, I just pulled off the impossible by doing a double-blind comparison all by myself, purely by virtue of the fact that I completely and stupidly forgot what I did last. I guess that getting old does have its advantages after all :D

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    Quote Originally Posted by snow View Post
    Sorry to dissapoint you but im not going to continue to fight with you over this, even a blind man could see what I have said is the truth. If you wish to continue on with your game feel free but I wont be there to play.



    REGARDS SNOW
    Thank you for finally graciously bowing out. Youre, if nothing else, at least consistent. You didn't let facts get in the way of your message the entire time. so cheers to that.

    Now off you go, find someone else's thread to trash.
    design is where science and art break even.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TroyD View Post
    On to more important topics, I agree with Mark, it's WAY too easy to get hung up on tubes....and I think we've all been there. It's like vinyl.....there is a lot more s@#$$y vinyl out there than people are willing to admit. There is crappy gear out there both tubes and SS. If anything, bad tube gear sounds a little better than crappy SS gear. However, some of my favorite tube gear....I don't think has much of a 'tube' signature at all. It's more a result of good engineering and execution than of species. YMMV.

    BDT
    by "sh***y vinyl, do you mean the recordings are bad? or the pressings pressings themselves? I'm very new to vinyl. well in the hi-fi sense. Ive had a plastic pioneer TT for years but never new it could sound better. I got a nicer TT and phono stage a year ago just so I could use the hundreds of albums I have. I like it, but it seems you need to spend a lot of money to get it sounding as good as contemporary mediums.

    The only thing I've observed of tubes is, from my experience, their more maintenance, a little more flexible (with rolling), and they've sounded a bit warmer. But again, I have VERY little experience with it.

    One question I do have is how can I clean the records without a special record cleaner. I have one of those dust brushes but I have a bunch of albums that are just plain dirty.
    design is where science and art break even.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newrival View Post
    .

    One question I do have is how can I clean the records without a special record cleaner. I have one of those dust brushes but I have a bunch of albums that are just plain dirty.
    Joe has a helpful thread here . . . http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...ap+crackle+pop
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    Thanks! That was helpful on several issues I'd been having.
    design is where science and art break even.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newrival View Post
    Thanks! That was helpful on several issues I'd been having.
    You are welcome, my friend. Rock on!
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  27. #267
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    kumbaya...

    Sorry, newrival, gotta hijack again for a minute to wrap up some business. Thanks in advance...

    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut
    Your logic here fails me Bruce.
    Just shows that there really is a first time for everything… My logic has failed me on numerous occasions, why should you be any different?
    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut
    The real noise issues are the transformers. Some remove them from close proximity to the other circuits by placing them in a separate box.
    I’d substitute the word “major” for “real” which I take you to mean “sole”. Jesse, when the steps taken to isolate noise sources that result from integration of separate components include the removal of parts, you start the return to separates. I simply see no advantage in stopping short of separates.
    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut
    Another method used by some on integrated's, separate amps and pre amps is to shield the hell out of the transformers.
    Since the potential for noise introduction is greatest from high duty (power amp) transformers and low level (pre-amp) circuits are most susceptible, why put them in proximity to begin with?
    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    Just because there is more in the box does not mean that there is more to replace....c'mon. If your separate amp or pre amp needs repair at the shop and you don't have another, you're still without tunes.
    From a function perspective if my integrated fails, I lose two functions (three, if the integrated includes a phono stage). For tunes to continue I need at least two functions in spare. With separates I lose one function per failure. You can say that I still need to spare two functions, and, OK, strictly speaking you’re right, but I’ll take my chances on the Pre-amp (one failure in 40 years and it was an oxidized power switch from leaving it on all the time), and just spare the power amp…

    Hell, I’m probably bi-amping anyway…
    More later,
    Tour...
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  28. #268

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tour2ma View Post
    I’d substitute the word “major” for “real” which I take you to mean “sole”. Jesse, when the steps taken to isolate noise sources that result from integration of separate components include the removal of parts, you start the return to separates. I simply see no advantage in stopping short of separates.
    It's no different than the steps taken to isolate the transformer(s) in any pre amp, some even put it/them in a separate box. Stopping short of separates? I don't know Bruce, there's a lot of separates out there masquerading as something that sounds good.


    Since the potential for noise introduction is greatest from high duty (power amp) transformers and low level (pre-amp) circuits are most susceptible, why put them in proximity to begin with?
    The same potential noise issues exist with the transformer(s) in the pre amp. Could be why some put it/them in a separate box, eh.


    From a function perspective if my integrated fails, I lose two functions (three, if the integrated includes a phono stage). For tunes to continue I need at least two functions in spare. With separates I lose one function per failure. You can say that I still need to spare two functions, and, OK, strictly speaking you’re right, but I’ll take my chances on the Pre-amp (one failure in 40 years and it was an oxidized power switch from leaving it on all the time), and just spare the power amp…
    Ya got nothing there.
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

  29. #269

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    Hijack away! I'm quite enjoying the dicussion.

    You mention "noise introduction is greatest from high duty (power amp) transformers and low level (pre-amp) circuits." Is the noise due to the interaction of the two or do they both just have inherent properties that make them more susceptible to noise?
    design is where science and art break even.

  30. #270

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    Noise is an inherent issue with any transformer.
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

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