Help with home theater

[FY70]

As you can see from my post count i am new here. i am looking for some help. I am setting up a home theater in my basement. I have a pair of RTA-11tls that have been boxed up for about 10 years. I was lurking around the fourm and have found more than I bargained for. I now am interested in acquiring a pair of 1Cs for the front, pair of of CRS+ for the center channels and using the RTA-11tl for the rears. Information is a bad thing! I have a few questions:
1. Do the 1Cs work as well with an opening to the side as they would with a wall?
2. Do I really need a sub?
3. To run all the speakers efficently what would be a good amp set up? I need to qualify, that will not set be back an arm and a leg. I am looking to spend less than 1k on tha amp/av processing setup.


I am attaching a rough sketch of the basement.
Thanks for the advice!

[dpowell]

FY, welcome to CP! You will definitely find people around here ready to help you spend your money so look out! :)

The 1C's are a great speaker, especially when modded but I'm not sure that they are best suited for home theater. I love my 1C's for music. If I were starting with what you have, I'd put the 11TL's as front L/R duty and get a good center such as a CS350 to match. You definitely will need a sub for LFE duty regardless of what you go with. WRT an amp, I like the Pioneer Elite. It does a fantastic job with room acoustic corrections. I'm always amazed at how much better the system sounds after using the MCACC utility. You should be able to find a good Pioneer Elite AVR used for <$1,000. A separate power amp will take your system to another level but would probably put you over your limit. If you do decide to go with SDA's across the front, make sure that whatever amp you buy is common ground.

Best of luck!

ps....
If you go with SDA's, make sure your amp can handle 4ohm loads. An AVR would probably not be best suited and you'd need an external power amp.

[FY70]

The 1Cs will be doing double duty. HT and music. Wife wants the noise in the basement. I don't need the volume loud, but louder than she likes.

Do the 1Cs need a solid wall on the side or will they still sound good with one by an opening?

If I did use the 1Cs for HT would the CS350 still be a good center?

I figured I would need a sub, reading the opinions here, there tends to be a slant towards non-polk subs. Is there a reason or just different opinions?

I currently have an Onkyo TX-SR605 powering ORB speakers for family room TV area. I like the Onkyo and was thinking of gettting a higher power model for the basement. But again reading other posts, it appears seperate amps are the way to go. I have always used the AV route. What would be a good pre-amp setup. Again I want to stay under the 1k price point but i have a little slop.


Thanks so much for the help.

[dpowell]

I'm not sure how not having a side wall will affect the SDA experience but they'll still sound good. Just make sure you bring them out from the back wall 6-8 inches, don't toe them in and have them equal distances from the side or theoretical side walls (in your case :)). They need to be perfectly aligned and facing straight out. WRT the center, the CS350 would still be a good center and require less amplification than going with a pair of CRS's. I honestly don't see the point of having CRS's for the center since the main point of the center channel is to have a solid speaker that will deliver 50%+ of the HT soundtrack, not for SDA experience; leave that to the 1C's.

I see the same slant on subs. All I can say is that I really enjoy my SVS. Polk has recently improved its line of subs and I've seen some good feedback on the forum regarding them.

You don't necessarily need a higher powered AVR, just one that has pre-outs so that you can connect an external amp. You have a couple of options. You can go with a 3-channel external amp and use it to drive the 1C's and center while using the internal amp on the AVR to drive the surrounds or you can get a 5 channel amp and drive all of the speakers. My personal taste is to avoid Adcom on Polk speakers as they tend to be a bit bright. I enjoy the Parasounds I have now and they can be had used on CL for very reasonable prices. If you can't find 3-channels, you can always pick up a couple of 2-channel amps and do the same thing. I run 3 X 2-channel Parasounds in 'half-stereo' (just using one of the two inputs) mode and get 450wpc into 4ohms.

Going the 2 or 3 channel route may allow you to get a higher wpc amp for your $$ which will give you more power where it counts. I currently run my surrounds off of the AVR with no issues. However, check with others on the forum to find out what the ohm rating is on the 11TL's. I have a pair but when I asked, I didn't get a definitive answer.

[dpowell]

FYI, this guy is selling RT20's and a CS350LS plus other stuff for $200!

http://sandiego.craigslist.org/nsd/ele/2130032202.html

[FY70]

Thanks for the info. I am going to email the seller and see what the price for the 350 shipped to east coast would be.
Also, thanks for the help on the amp question, but I now have more. For a 16x20 room what is the lowest "clean" wattage that will suffice for the Polk 1Cs?

thanks again,

More answers generate more questions...

[dbnh]

Thanks for the info. I am going to email the seller and see what the price for the 350 shipped to east coast would be.
Also, thanks for the help on the amp question, but I now have more. For a 16x20 room what is the lowest "clean" wattage that will suffice for the Polk 1Cs?

thanks again,

More answers generate more questions...

The 1Cs really need a high current amp to shine, IMO.

[dpowell]

No worries. :) I'd try to shoot for a minimum 200wpc but +1 what dbnh says as well. You can go lower but someday you'll just end up wanting more. However, many of the good quality amps underrate their power handling. You might also take a look at the B&K AV5000 that's for sale in the FS thread. In fact, I think there were 2 and one sold? Seems like a reasonable price and those amps have a TON of headroom. Caps the size of coke cans. :D

[dpowell]

FYI.....http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...25#post1488725

doesn't want to ship but something like this would work well for you.

[FY70]

DBNH, I saw your 1Cs listed FS are they available?
I posted a response in FS but never heard back. I am interested in them for this setup.
Thanks.

[civilian]

I would suggest to think what you will be doing more HT or music? And how you will be doing it?
I'd guess the whole family and friends will sit and watch a movie/game.
While listening to music (especially SDA's) is usually a solo endeavor unless at a party.
Assuming that is somewhat true I'd suggest finding some vintage RT's.
They are easy to power and sound amazing on HT, and the bigger ones (like the 2000's) sound great with music too.
I end up listing to the 7-ch stereo mode on my Denon most of the time as I am usually entertaining (or working) with the music going.

[FY70]

Civilian,

For the present time they would be doing double duty, until I can score additional speakers for the HT and games. Most would be for HT but I do enjoy listening to music and would like to use the 1Cs for that. Since the wife is saying ok with my design of the HT I figure I should strike while the door is open.

Thanks to everyone in the fourm for all you help and please keep the opinions coming. The more I read the more I learn.

[drumminman]

I just came across a company I had not been aware of, Emotiva. I bought their Ultra 12 subwoofer, which has been burning in for two days now on my two channel system. It's starting to open up a bit and has a very clean, tight, musical sound.

I plan to use it in a smallish room for HT in a smallish room.

They also have a line of amps that get good reviews: www.emotiva.com

Cheers,

Fred

Disclaimer: I have no connection to them other than being a satisfied consumer.

[dpowell]

There are many who like Emotiva because of the low cost for getting into separates. You'll find a lot of Emotiva haters here. I don't have any experience with their products but there are well-established companies that put much higher quality components in their gear than Emotiva. IMO, you're better off going for used quality gear vs. new or used Emotiva anything.

[newrival]

Thanks for the info. I am going to email the seller and see what the price for the 350 shipped to east coast would be.
Also, thanks for the help on the amp question, but I now have more. For a 16x20 room what is the lowest "clean" wattage that will suffice for the Polk 1Cs?

thanks again,

More answers generate more questions...

In my opinion, the CS350's. while an excellent center, are a terrible match for SDA's. CS400, or CS1000 are much better if you had to go with modern centers. But if I were you I wouldn't spend one dime on speakers, you have exactly what you need.

Here is what I would do in your situation. And this will cost you nothing to try it out:

SDA 1C's - front R/L
CRS+'s - Rear R/L
(1) RTa11tl - Front Center
(1) RTa11tl - Rear Center

Then let your receiver know that youre running in 6.1 mode. This is the ideal setup for SDA's in HT. And, if you have the room, is phenomenal. Please try it out before you go out spending any money, I think you'll find you have a killer system waiting to be set up.

[newrival]

I'm pasting a comment I made in another thread entitled SDA 5.1, much of it applies:

Up until a week ago I had been running my HT with SDA's. I was using the configuration as described by SRS's for the mains and CRS+ for the rears. I have it set up n the 6.1 configuration that Stu Lumsden (VP of Engineering at Polk) suggested on this very forum.

His credentials, in his words: "I've been designing speakers at Polk for 33+ years now and I have been part of the SDA design work through all of its evolution which continues on even now."

His statement on the issue: "In home theater setups there is the consideration for multiple pairs of speakers around the room. SDA will work for a pair of speakers in front or behind a listener. It is essentially benign for a pair of speakers located to the side. So, as a basic technology it is still a potential benefit in HT setups . We have sold SRT systems consisting of front and rear SDA stacks with the SRT center (the center is not SDA for obvious reasons) and this created an amazing degree of image accuracy. If you can find SRS or SRTs and have the room to set up 4 as front as rear I suggest that you do it. Use a center channel in the front and back and use the 6.1 mode for multichannel HT or music. It will sound amazing. "

I can attest that this is a very nice setup for HT. The one caveat is that the SDA cancellation loses its effectiveness the wider the seating gets. 4 seats wide and 2/3 seats deep may be as far as you want to go. But for mos that is more than sufficient.

Monitor 10's, 5's or similar, CS400, CS1000p, (NOT the CS350), or anything that utilzes the same(ish) compliment of drivers can make for a good center. I actually used monitor 10b's with sl2000 tweeters before finding CS1000p's for the front and rear center.

[newrival]

No worries. :) I'd try to shoot for a minimum 200wpc but +1 what dbnh says as well. You can go lower but someday you'll just end up wanting more. However, many of the good quality amps underrate their power handling. You might also take a look at the B&K AV5000 that's for sale in the FS thread. In fact, I think there were 2 and one sold? Seems like a reasonable price and those amps have a TON of headroom. Caps the size of coke cans. :D

+1
BUT if you can find the AV-6000 That'd be even better. Its a 6 channel and ran my SDA theater as described above with this amp. It was absolutely stunning. And really delivered on 2ch duty, and for 5.1 music? absolutely killer

[newrival]

Also, I don't know if anyone addressed you question about SDA's near side walls or not, but heres the answer:

You don't want SDA's within 3' of sidewalls (optimally) will they still sound good? sure but it causes reflections of the SDA drivers and will impair their ability to cancel crosstalk effectively. So no sidewall is better than a near sidewall.

Do you have a budget for a subwoofer?

Also, I might suggest looking for a pre-owned pre/pro or receiver as well as multi-channeled amp on audiogon. You can get a 1-3 year old top of the line receiver that will handle all your needs for the cost of an entry receiver.

[dpowell]

But if I were you I wouldn't spend one dime on speakers, you have exactly what you need.

Here is what I would do in your situation. And this will cost you nothing to try it out:

SDA 1C's - front R/L
CRS+'s - Rear R/L
(1) RTa11tl - Front Center
(1) RTa11tl - Rear Center

I think the OP only has the 11TLS, not the CRS+ or the 1C's yet and is looking to acquire additional speakers to complete the setup. the 11tl is a tall speaker and seems to me would not be aesthetically pleasing as a center speaker. I'm interested in why the CS350 is not considered a good match. Did you have one and dislike it enough to go with a different model?

To the OP, if you have the room behind your seating to use SDA rear surrounds, I'm sure they'd sound killer. Just remember that ideal SDA is a triangulation of the SDA speakers so if your seating is too close to the SDA's, you won't get the same effect.

[newrival]

I think the OP only has the 11TLS, not the CRS+ or the 1C's yet and is looking to acquire additional speakers to complete the setup. the 11tl is a tall speaker and seems to me would not be aesthetically pleasing as a center speaker. I'm interested in why the CS350 is not considered a good match. Did you have one and dislike it enough to go with a different model?

To the OP, if you have the room behind your seating to use SDA rear surrounds, I'm sure they'd sound killer. Just remember that ideal SDA is a triangulation of the SDA speakers so if your seating is too close to the SDA's, you won't get the same effect.

Oh man, you're right... sorry about that. Well in that case, my previous statements are in the case that the OP wants to go SDA. It really does make for a nice set up. But I might suggest some 2b's for the rears because they can be placed closer to the walls.

Anyways, I was saying the RTa11tl's would make good centers because because you can match the drivers. Additionally they can be laid on their side. Although you'd want to center them on the tweeter, so the PR's would be hanging off asymmetrically to one side... But I don't know how much that would really effect imaging. I would suspect very little. Although it could effect dispersion... hmmm. anyways the tweeters on the 1c's can be replaced with matching rdo's of the RTa's, likewise with the 2b's or CRS+'s (if they're pin/blade).

As far as the CS350 goes, I did have that center. The timbre match is WAY off. It is very forward in presentation and much brighter sounding. The CS400 was a much better match, in part i believe, to having 6" woofers instead of the 3 or 4" woofers in the 350. Either way, It was closer in my opinion. Not perfect, however. I then experimented with other selections, and settled on a pair of Monitor 10b's The 5's were also very good, although I would have wanted 2 pairs of 5's, running a pair in parallel for each center. That way I could have laid them on their sides. Anyways, I ended up finding a pair of CS1000p's From this gentleman that was having a garage sale. They weren't out but we got to talking about Polk and he ended up selling me those. They worked great. Not necessarily better than the 10b's just a little different and more than anything their form was much more concduive to HT.

Anyways I think there was an answer in there somewhere, and I hope it was at least a little helpful

[newrival]

I think the OP only has the 11TLS, not the CRS+ or the 1C's yet and is looking to acquire additional speakers to complete the setup. the 11tl is a tall speaker and seems to me would not be aesthetically pleasing as a center speaker. I'm interested in why the CS350 is not considered a good match. Did you have one and dislike it enough to go with a different model?

To the OP, if you have the room behind your seating to use SDA rear surrounds, I'm sure they'd sound killer. Just remember that ideal SDA is a triangulation of the SDA speakers so if your seating is too close to the SDA's, you won't get the same effect.

An excellent point, and one that I made in the other thread but failed to mention here. You can compensate by moving the SDA rears closer together, but all the SDA rules apply. It is definitely necessary to keep the distance from the listening position to the vertical plane of the speakers greater than, or equal to the distance between the the speakers. Additionally, you have to keep in mind the SDA driver orientation: the SDA drivers need to be on the outside which means that your rear right channel needs the "left" SDA speaker, and your rear left channel needs the "right" SDA. Unless you swap the drivers and wiring, that is. hahaha

[FY70]

Everyone,
Please keep the conversation flowing. I am learning a great deal. I am trying to acquire the 1Cs. I am planing to use the 11TLs as the rears. I have a 350 on the way and now will try to find a 400 and audition both and sell the one that does not match. As for the Sub and Amps I am still open for suggestion. Thanks again for the help and keep it coming.

[newrival]

What is your budget for a sub? amp? receiver/processor?

[FY70]

Just picked up a Parasound HCA-806 amp so that part is almost complete. I would like to stay under $500 +/- or the sub. Reciever/processor about $700+/-. What do you think?

[Brayden095]

You may want to look into making an accident compensation claim you can do this from a number of places, you just have to put it into google!

[dpowell]

Just picked up a Parasound HCA-806 amp so that part is almost complete. I would like to stay under $500 +/- or the sub. Reciever/processor about $700+/-. What do you think?

That amp is a great start. I don't know what to recommend for a sub for less than $500 but there should be plenty of good choices. As far as an AVR, you should be able to pick up a great used AVR for less than your target. However, stay away from the Pioneer VSX-92TXH and 94TXH as they have a known problem that will result in you performing surgery on your amp and sending a daughter card in for repair to the tune of about $100. Personal experience speaking there.....

[wayne3burk]

F70 I did a little math and it seems that with a 16.5 long wall that your SDA-1Cs will be sitting 6-8 inches from the wall....

they will need to be 3 feet from the side walls ( or inferred sidewall ) ... They are approximately 18" wide, leaving 9' from tweeter to tweeter....

Your listening position will be apprx. 7.7942286340599478208735085367764 from the wall the TV is sitting on...

actually you can add back the 6-8" :D

My figures are based on the optimal listening position being an equilateral triangle.

[FY70]

That amp is a great start. I don't know what to recommend for a sub for less than $500 but there should be plenty of good choices. As far as an AVR, you should be able to pick up a great used AVR for less than your target. However, stay away from the Pioneer VSX-92TXH and 94TXH as they have a known problem that will result in you performing surgery on your amp and sending a daughter card in for repair to the tune of about $100. Personal experience speaking there.....

I stumbled across the Epik Empire Subwoofer. I think I read a thread or 2 here that were positive. At $799 it is more than the 500 price point, but I do have some slop in the budget just not double the money.
As for the AVR I am at a loss. Since I have a deceint amp, is there one that has the features at a lower price? Or am I going to have to bite the bullet and pay a higher price to get the features eventhough I will not be using the AVR amps?

[FY70]

F70 I did a little math and it seems that with a 16.5 long wall that your SDA-1Cs will be sitting 6-8 inches from the wall....

they will need to be 3 feet from the side walls ( or inferred sidewall ) ... They are approximately 18" wide, leaving 9' from tweeter to tweeter....

Your listening position will be apprx. 7.7942286340599478208735085367764 from the wall the TV is sitting on...

actually you can add back the 6-8" :D

My figures are based on the optimal listening position being an equilateral triangle.

Awesome! Thanks for the measurements. This will help out in the final completion of the basement room.