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  1. #1

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    Default Hi-Res Vinyl Rips With LessisNevermore

    I'd like to thank Duell (LessisNevermore) for breaking down his recording setup and transporting it to my place to do some hi-res (24/96) vinyl rips. He brought his computer (not pictured), two monitors, keyboard, mouse, Digidesign's Pro Tools hardware (002) and software along.

    Behind that dull expression is a very knowledgeable fellow in music and recording. I thought I knew a lot but quickly realized he probably forgot more than I know. He can also play the drums and does live recording.

    I've been doing vinyl rips for years using either a desktop or Dell laptop computer. I just use the onboard sound card in the laptop and it does a very good job. I leave the AC charger unplugged on the laptop while ripping. Recording software is the free program Audacity. I use the program ClickRepair ($24 US) for LP's in poor condition to get rid of pops and clicks. (If you don't set it too high, you won't harm the dynamics). LP’s in good condition don’t require any click repair.

    Doing rips in 16/44 is great, but 24/96 results in a much richer recording. One of my showcase rips is my favorite George Winston album Autumn in 24/96. It is very close to the vinyl, although I believe notes decay better in vinyl playback.

    We wanted to see if Duell's recording setup could result in a better recording than my laptop. We chose a fav album of ours, Rush’s Moving Pictures. (No Duell, they are not yours:tongue:). I have three MP LP’s; a Holland, Japanese and Robert Ludwig pressing. While all three LP’s sound fantastic, Duell and I compared them and we say the Holland and Japanese pressings are the best sounding. We used the Japanese pressing. Duell’s gear gave us a lower noise floor with I think improved dynamics. I don’t see myself spending the coin to get gear like this, but it has convinced me to invest in a better soundcard.

    Thanks again bud!
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    Last edited by SCompRacer; 01-13-2011 at 02:34 PM.
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  2. #2

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    Very cool!
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche

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    If this works as good as their DACs then it should be easy and inexpensive to convert vinyl to digital.

    http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/adc/adc1-usb

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    Post 4 and 5 reported as SPAM.

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    Not familiar with that software, but it looks like a sweet gig, Rich. I've recently been playing around a little with Adobe Audition and Amadeus Pro. These are much more sophisticated proggys than Audacity and I haven't attempted a genuine rip with either, yet. Still getting my learn on. I've done several 96/24 rips using Audacity and I agree, they are much more dynamic than 44/16 redbook standard.

    I need to get off my butt and start ripping some stuff now that the new cartridge is broke in. I enjoy it also, but I'm really anal about it and find it very time consuming once I start.

  6. #6

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    Duell is a great guy and very knowledgeable about recording both live and and doing this type of transfer. This is something I'd love to pick his brain about sometime. He's part of our local audio group.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

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    So can one take a 44.1 cd and re-rip it to hi-rez or do you have to start with an analog file?
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

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    I had a blast Rich, thanks again for inviting me into your home again. I wasn't sure if Jasper was going to surrender my boxes.

    Don't let his innocent act fool you guys, I think he's training that cat to lay claim to gear that comes into the house. j/k

    Even though the process didn't go as silky smooth as I'd have liked, (my fault) we did get things sorted and an LP successfully ripped into 24/96. I will try to bounce it to stereo and cut it up into individual tracks by the weekend.

    Seriously, if you guys that have large vinyl investments, do yourself a favor, and archive them....then back those up. (don't ask) Hard drives are cheap, and getting more so every day. It doesn't require expensive hardware, mine certainly isn't that expensive.



    Quote Originally Posted by Keiko View Post
    Not familiar with that software, but it looks like a sweet gig, Rich. I've recently been playing around a little with Adobe Audition and Amadeus Pro. These are much more sophisticated proggys than Audacity and I haven't attempted a genuine rip with either, yet. Still getting my learn on. I've done several 96/24 rips using Audacity and I agree, they are much more dynamic than 44/16 redbook standard.
    ProTools is like the Autocad of the recording world. The industry standard. This is the home-studio version. The software is tied to the hardware, and won't start without it present and powered on. They make a ton of different interfaces at all levels and price ranges.

    The learning curve is pretty steep though, if you have no experience with studio recording equipment.

    I wanted to try out some vinyl rips, to see how good the A/D converters are. I'd say so far, so good. (even if it is pro hardware)

    Audacity is certainly no slouch, and the rips that Rich had already done with a laptop are VERY impressive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    So can one take a 44.1 cd and re-rip it to hi-rez or do you have to start with an analog file?

    Nope, gotta be analog. For what you ask, you're better off upsampling with a DAC. Technically you could, but as the cd has already been (possibly) down-rez'd to 44.1, the damage is done. IMO, no benefit over a good DAC. And no, the Adcom won't do 24/96, bummer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LessisNevermore View Post
    Nope, gotta be analog. For what you ask, you're better off upsampling with a DAC. Technically you could, but as the cd has already been (possibly) down-rez'd to 44.1, the damage is done. IMO, no benefit over a good DAC. And no, the Adcom won't do 24/96, bummer.
    Much like taking a lossy, mp3 file and converting it .aif, I assume??? Once it's compressed, there's no way of retrieving the lost info, as far as I know.
    Last edited by Keiko; 01-13-2011 at 04:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keiko View Post
    Much like taking a lossy, mp3 file and converting it .aif, I assume??? Once it's compressed, there's no way of retrieving the lost info, as far as I know.

    Ed Zachary.
    Might be able to step it up to like 48, and hear some(?) improvement, but I wouldn't want to go beyond that.

    Up-sampling as I understand it, is the processor trying to 'fill in the blanks', so to speak.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by LessisNevermore View Post
    Nope, gotta be analog. For what you ask, you're better off upsampling with a DAC. Technically you could, but as the cd has already been (possibly) down-rez'd to 44.1, the damage is done. IMO, no benefit over a good DAC. And no, the Adcom won't do 24/96, bummer.
    I kind of figured it had to be analog sourced. The USB to S/PDIF converter I have will pass up to 196 but the dac only does up to 48 (AMC DAC8). When you hitting the road again?

    Way back about 7-10 years ago I started transferring my LED ZEP bootlegs from cassette tape, using a Nakamichi deck, to digital using Adobe Audition. Editing the wave and adding a TOC by way of a manual cue sheet. Tedious stuff but it worked well.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

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    oh cool, something else to learn about......

    I am going to hire a woman in a french dress to come rip things for me......

    gotta admit...this defenitely caught my eye.

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    Well, this thread got me motivated to rip some vinyl with the new Dynavector cartridge. I'm definitely floored by the results. The 10X5 is detailed and very lively. Not that I wasn't pleased with the DL160, but Dyna is a completely different animal. A whole new level of sonic achievement. :tongue:

    Ripping's easy, Teddles. Just a bit time consuming. If you're serious about getting your learn on, I'm happy to help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keiko View Post
    I've recently been playing around a little with Adobe Audition and Amadeus Pro.
    I've got Sonic Foundry Vegas 4.0. I've used it for video and audio with video, but never for rips. I'm software challenged so the easier, the better.

    Quote Originally Posted by LessisNevermore View Post
    I had a blast Rich, thanks again for inviting me into your home again. I wasn't sure if Jasper was going to surrender my boxes.
    Good to have you over! Next time, more music, less technology. Does it make a difference (improvement) that your software records the R and L channel than mixes to stereo? With Audacity, you just see the stereo mix.

    Jasper will let you know if something should stay.



    Photo taken by Rob C.
    Last edited by SCompRacer; 01-15-2011 at 03:01 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keiko View Post
    Well, this thread got me motivated
    I need some of that motivation stuff. Where do you get yours and whats it cost?
    Make yourself necessary to someone. Ralph Waldo Emerson

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  17. #17

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    hmmmmm,, that cat sure looks innarested in that box,,, wonder whats in it? You guys look waaaay too relaxed,,and the comment about motivation,,,, and rip,, and those colorful graphs,,,, did ya'll perhaps eat a bag of choclate chip cookies too.
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)

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    Quote Originally Posted by SCompRacer View Post
    Does it make a difference (improvement) that your software records the R and L channel than mixes to stereo? With Audacity, you just see the stereo mix.
    It certainly does, if the channels aren't panned hard right and left...and not for the better. lol Seriously, I think bypassing an internal sound card can have some lower noise benefits, depending on the sound card, of course. There are some very good cards out there.

    Been working on the Rush rips. Nice and quiet background with great dynamics. Haven't got a 16/44 comparison at the moment, but will soon. Only about 200 more discs to go....ooof!


    Jasper will let you know if something should stay.

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    Some good info in this thread. I wish that I had some more time to get into this.

    Anyone buy the new 200g version of "In the Court of the Crimson King"? It comes with a download code to get a 320 kbps of a needle drop from an original 1969 vinyl. Sounds pretty decent for an MP3.
    Carl

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    Rich,

    Jasper seems to enjoy the music!
    Carl

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    Quote Originally Posted by schwarcw View Post
    Rich,

    Jasper seems to enjoy the music!
    Any cat would be happy with Rich's rig, including this one.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCompRacer View Post
    Doing rips in 16/44 is great, but 24/96 results in a much richer recording. One of my showcase rips is my favorite George Winston album Autumn in 24/96. It is very close to the vinyl, although I believe notes decay better in vinyl playback.
    SCR, Less',

    I realize it's hard to quantify, but on a scale of 1 - 10 with the original vinyl a 10, would you score the 16/44 and 24/96 dup's for SQ? for soundstage?
    More later,
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tour2ma View Post
    SCR, Less',

    I realize it's hard to quantify, but on a scale of 1 - 10 with the original vinyl a 10, would you score the 16/44 and 24/96 dup's for SQ? for soundstage?

    T2, truth is, I don't have a TT setup, so I can't honestly give an answer to that, sorry. Not familiar enough with the sound sig of that pressing, nor Rich's gear. Though I'm willing to put in the time.....

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    Bruce, first I must mention that my streaming digital gear does support hi-res files. The Squeezebox Touch does 24/96 and my Music Hall 25.3 DAC will do 24/96 on the USB input and up to 24/192 on all other inputs. Music files are stored on a large hard drive in flac format.

    I do get a 180 degree soundstage with digital compared to vinyl. It is hard to quantify, but SQ wise Id say 7/10 for CD, 8-9/10 for 24/96. Folks that have been here are free to offer their input as to the digital versus vinyl thing. You get increased resolution with a 24/96 file which better defines instrument placement/depth within the soundstage. More meat on the bones type thing. The difference can be both subtle and great; it all depends on what you compare the hi-res file to. With a poor A/D conversion CD with lousy dynamic range, the difference is huge.

    Some recording engineers (Barry Diament and IIRC Cookie Marenco) do believe SQ suffers even with a lossless compression such as flac. Barry prefers AIF and WAV while Cookie at Blue Coast prefers DSD and WAV. IIRC, neither offer a flac download for the music they sell (Cookie does have flac for free downloads). The claim is SQ suffers with any real time expansion of files, such as lossless flac.

    Ive had people here at my place for 6-8 hours doing nothing but playing primarily digital music on my system and no one has ever complained of listening fatigue or ears bleeding (with the music server and ModWright tube output Sony CD player). All seem to agree that my vinyl playback is better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCompRacer View Post
    I need some of that motivation stuff. Where do you get yours and whats it cost?
    Free, from you fellas and threads like this. Of course, you could dangle your testicles in front of Jasper and that should give you some sort of motivation, Rich. :tongue:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keiko View Post
    Free, from you fellas and threads like this. Of course, you could dangle your testicles in front of Jasper and that should give you some sort of motivation, Rich. :tongue:


    OK, maybe TMI, but you know how as guys we can wake up in the morning with a.... Anyway, he hops in the bed, it moves under the sheet and you know how cats are! Fortunately it was just a test smack with the paw and not a stranglehold bite. I could just imagine explaining that in the emergency room.
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    I can see it now. You and Jasper headlining, Stories from the ER and Emergency Vets. lol!

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    SCR,
    I realize it's subjective and only a qualitative measure can be offered... but I've got at least a vicarious feel now.... Thanks...


    Less,
    Get thee a TT...
    More later,
    Tour...
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCompRacer View Post


    OK, maybe TMI, but you know how as guys we can wake up in the morning with a.... Anyway, he hops in the bed, it moves under the sheet and you know how cats are! Fortunately it was just a test smack with the paw and not a stranglehold bite. I could just imagine explaining that in the emergency room.
    Paging Mr. Claude Bawls....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tour2ma View Post
    Less,
    Get thee a TT...
    Expensive rabbit hole, that. Not ready to commit.

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