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  1. #31

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    I see Troll Camp just graduated some new students.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

  2. #32

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    Wow.

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keiko View Post
    Took only 6 posts too. That's gotta be a new record. I want to at least hold out til he gives me a response to my inquiry.
    There's an example in this very thread Keiko if you scroll up:
    "Please keep in mind that they can't hear, and refuse to listen."

  4. #34

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    So CF you going to do anything positive here? Generally when you walk into a new family you don't fling a bunch of $hit. You really have made quite a name for yourself here in record time. If you really feel there is nothing here for you why don't you go home to your other forum. It isn't that hard to see through trolls like you.
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
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  5. #35

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    Really Freak??? Things have been mellow around here till you and JackOff showed up with to stir this BS up..

    You both are here for the wrong reasons and again if true be known both of you are hiding behind a false mask and are a couple POS's that have been here before..
    Hot Rodded SDA 1.2TL's, SDA 1C's, SDA CRS+'s...
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  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Freak View Post
    There's an example in this very thread Keiko if you scroll up:
    "Please keep in mind that they can't hear, and refuse to listen."
    Yeah, just what I thought. Listed!

    Quote Originally Posted by ben62670 View Post
    So CF you going to do anything positive here? Generally when you walk into a new family you don't fling a bunch of $hit. You really have made quite a name for yourself here in record time. If you really feel there is nothing here for you why don't you go home to your other forum. It isn't that hard to see through trolls like you.
    Quote Originally Posted by TOOLFORLIFEFAN View Post
    Really Freak??? Things have been mellow around here till you and JackOff showed up with to stir this BS up..

    You both are here for the wrong reasons and again if true be known both of you are hiding behind a false mask and are a couple POS's that have been here before..
    Yup, just more useless trolls with sh!t to contribute. Don't like the way we roll here then why else would they hang around.

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by jcandy View Post
    Do you have a permit to sell snake-oil here?
    Your troll permit has expired. Sh!t listed!

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keiko View Post
    Your troll permit has expired. Sh!t listed!
    Beat ya to it.:tongue:


    It must be final exam time at Troll U.
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  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post
    Beat ya to it.:tongue:

    U da man.

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post
    Beat ya to it.:tongue:


    It must be final exam time at Troll U.
    Larry nailed it on the head. These ass clowns aren't new here and know exactly what their trying to instigate. Best not to give them the satisfaction. Let 'em jerkoff on themselves.

  11. #41

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    I am burned out now.

  12. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by megasat16 View Post
    I am burned out now.
    So soon?it's only page 2!Don't be a quitter James.
    Last edited by FTGV; 02-18-2011 at 12:51 AM.

  13. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by megasat16 View Post
    I am burned out now.
    Well, you know that ol' saying, megs; It's better to burn out, than to fade away.

  14. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by FTGV View Post
    So soon,it's only page 2?Don't be a quitter James.
    I changed Doc and Insurance. I am now on better med now. :tongue:
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone.

  15. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by megasat16 View Post
    I changed Doc and Insurance. I am now on better med now. :tongue:
    What about the Doc? Is she hot?

  16. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keiko View Post
    Well, you know that ol' saying, megs; It's better to burn out, than to fade away.
    Megs? A pie?

    I always feel burned out whenever I tried the Hawaiian Pie. Geez...I need another one.
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone.

  17. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keiko View Post
    What about the Doc? Is she hot?
    Oh heck, u can say that twice.....
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone.

  18. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by megasat16 View Post
    Megs? A pie?

    I always feel burned out whenever I tried the Hawaiian Pie. Geez...I need another one.
    Too burned out to post any PIE. My Doc's got me Oxycodone for my hip right now. :tongue:

  19. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by megasat16 View Post
    Oh heck, u can say that twice.....
    Cool! Schedule us for a hernia check up, but I wanna go first.

  20. #50

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    Cool CF is back to bless us with his wisdom. I can't believe I have been duped by my own brain for so long.
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
    Ben

  21. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by ben62670 View Post
    Cool CF is back to bless us with his wisdom. I can't believe I have been duped by my own brain for so long.
    Forget that freak, Ben. meg's got a doc hottie. Let's go get checked for a hernia. :tongue:

  22. #52

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    Cough cough
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
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  23. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Freak View Post
    1. It can work both ways. For example I've spent a lot of time ABXing lossy codecs. Sometimes variations in frequency response (a peak at certain frequencies) of poor gear can make certain artifacts *easier* to hear than they would be on equipment that is more accurate.

    2. True. It's often a matter of training to hear the differences, or knowing how to interpret what you hear rather than 'golden ears'.

    I don't think anyone who knows what they're talking about would tell you that you don't really hear what you think you do in subjective listening, it's very real. Just search youtube for the McGurk Effect and you can easily see that what you see with your eyes can make you ACTUALLY hear something that doesn't exist. It's completely fabricated inside your brain, but it's very real, and even knowing that the sound is not actually there cannot prevent you from hearing it.

    Placebo and expectation bias are very well documented. It shouldn't be seen as an insult against you to suggest that without carefully controlling certain factors, that you could have been been victim to a phenomena that all humans are susceptible to... Especially in a situation where blind testing, and all known methods of seperating fact from fiction seem to point to a different conclusion. After all, what special insights do you get from peeking at the brand labels?
    A carefully-worded, sensible, on-point post like the one above is enough -- actually, a guarantee -- to get the usual suspects here completely riled up and swarming.

    I think the essential point that gets (purposely, I'm sure) lost is that its the one making the positive claim about the objectivity of some phenomenon that bears the burden of proof, whether its the subtle benefits of cables, burn-in or boutique capacitors. Remarkably, there is a learned response that I see repeatedly; that is, to deny a priori the validity of measurements in sorting out truth from fiction in these matters. It is just a given that quantitative methods must fail. That is the smoking gun of delusion.

  24. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keiko View Post
    Cool! Schedule us for a hernia check up, but I wanna go first.
    Ok! It's not really hard to ask her.

    Quote Originally Posted by ben62670 View Post
    Cough cough
    You want a check up to, Ben?












































    I just asked. Coz she's watching TV on the love seat.....

    She said there is a package deal offer now.

    Hernia check comes with Free Castration / Fixing. LOL J/K...I can't resist, guys!


    Anyway, I got to go now....the Doc is waiting, the med is working, the time seems ripe....This part not Joking. OK?

    Oh by the way, J, you win! I got to do some burning in.... So, enjoy!

    Just a piece of advise, proof read the posts if you copy and quote from the Internet.
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone.

  25. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by ben62670 View Post
    Cool CF is back to bless us with his wisdom. I can't believe I have been duped by my own brain for so long.
    I didn't come here to bless anyone with my wisdom. Actually I'm a loyal Polk customer, and audio enthusiast since the mid 70's. I recently picked up a pair of rti a9's due to a boxing day sale at future shop that I just couldn't pass up, and discovered (on the registration page of my speakers) that Polk had a forum.

    I admit my opening post on this thread was a bit strong and trollish, but there seems to be very few objective 'voices of reason' on this forum, and any that do appear here face a very strong tide of opposition from people with nothing but anecdotal evidence to back up their questionable claims.

    I really wouldn't mind. Everyone is welcome to his own opinion, and to spend his hard earned money as he sees fit - but it pains me to see people new to the hobby being told about night and day differences between cables, power conditioners, digital vs. analog, amplifier differences, etc. And it pains me to see someone such as jcandy presenting his views in a calm, objective, and rational way being treated like he has no business being here.

  26. #56

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    Awe poor Jcandy. Now you are playing the victims for the trolls song. It pains you. How cute. Let me get you a box of tissues.
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
    Ben

  27. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by ben62670 View Post
    Awe poor Jcandy. Now you are playing the victims for the trolls song. It pains you. How cute. Let me get you a box of tissues.

  28. #58

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    A lot of what's discussed here is not so much the easily measured stuff, like volume or frequency response. The critical parameter for most here seems to be the "soundstage" created by a pair of stereo speakers. This seems to be as much a perceptual phenomenon, as it is a physical one, perhaps moreso. So, how are you going to objectively measure someone's perception? All I can expect is for them to attempt to relate their perceptual experiences. Could they be real? Imagined? Does it matter?

    Taste the Kool-Aid - it's full of yumminess!
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  29. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by jcandy View Post
    You are exactly 100% at odds with the owner of Harbeth, and 100% at odds with measurements. Do you have a permit to sell snake-oil here?
    Why the obsession with Harbeth? It was already stated that no burn in is his personal marketing policy, and that's his prerogative. Dozens here with no agenda other than to help new vintage Polk owners know otherwise. It's simple. With new RDO tweeters, you give them a couple of hundred of hours before worrying about critical listening.
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  30. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by mdaudioguy View Post
    So, how are you going to objectively measure someone's perception?
    That's done all the time by academic psychologists.
    Do blinded (single-blinded should be OK) A/B tests to see if listeners can distinguish between "burned in" and "fresh" speakers. Use a sufficient number of test subjects to achieve reasonable statistical significance. "40 undergraduate students" is a standard sample size in many psychology tests. Use a moderate number of different speakers. Do tests on different days to avoid audio perception "fatigue". Use subjects who have reasonable audio perception, such as music majors and/or audio engineering students. Don't have to prove that one type of speaker is better, just distinguishable.
    Quote Originally Posted by mdaudioguy
    Could they be real? Imagined? Does it matter?
    It seems of sufficient interest to enough people to often keep long flame wars going!
    It would probably make a nice Master's thesis for someone to do the study.
    If optimum burn-in time (if it exists at all) can be determined that'd be likely be useful to some professionals.

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