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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by starless View Post

    Use subjects who have reasonable audio perception, such as music majors and/or audio engineering students. Don't have to prove that one type of speaker is better, just distinguishable.
    I have an alternate idea:

    Why don't we use a collection of folks who have a better than "reasonable" audio perception, have been listening for thousands of hours per year spanning several decades, and have actually replaced tweeters (as well as drivers, wires, cables, caps, resistors, inductors, power conditioners, reseptacles, breaker boxes and hundreds of components) in numerous models of their own gear.
    Last edited by inspiredsports; 02-18-2011 at 09:55 AM.
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  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by starless View Post
    It would probably make a nice Master's thesis for someone to do the study.
    You might be interested in work forum member DarqueKnight is doing, that in my opinion, surpasses what is involved in a Master's thesis.
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  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by inspiredsports View Post
    You might be interested in work forum member DarqueKnight is doing, that in my opinion, surpasses what is involved in a Master's thesis.
    Is there a link or reference for that?
    Thanks.

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by starless View Post
    Is there a link or reference for that?
    Thanks.
    I typed "publishing audio paper" into the Search box and found it for you

    http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...ng+audio+paper

    Now you have a week's worth of studying ahead of you
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  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by inspiredsports View Post
    I typed "publishing audio paper" into the Search box and found it for you

    http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...ng+audio+paper
    Thanks. From this I managed to find a link to the actual article which is available at:
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...306.x/abstract
    (This might be behind a paywall, but I was able to access it from my work network.)

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by inspiredsports View Post
    I have an alternate idea:

    Why don't we use a collection of folks who have a better than "reasonable" audio perception, have been listening for thousands of hours per year spanning several decades, and have actually replaced tweeters (as well as drivers, wires, cables, caps, resistors, inductors, power conditioners, reseptacles, breaker boxes and hundreds of components) in numerous models of their own gear.
    Stop it now...useing common sense is forbid in academia.

  7. #67

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    So do tweeters break in or what?

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by inspiredsports View Post
    I have an alternate idea:
    Why don't we use a collection of folks who have a better than "reasonable" audio perception,
    May well be better, but a lot harder for the average university-based researcher to get hold of than the generic "40 undergraduates". (I'm actually a space physicist, not a psychologist, but have glanced at the occasional psychology paper.) A study of either group of people would be interesting to me.

  9. #69

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    WoW,, Look at it this way, Either you believe in speaker burn in,, or you dont,, i do,,, But, if you dont like the sound after awhile, get different speakers,,, Aside from that,, i wonder what DR,Bose has to say on the subject????

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by m1aman View Post
    So do tweeters break in or what?
    Actually, no. If somebody says they do, ask what exactly part of the tweeter is changing. Aside from minor and largely inaudible compliance changes in the woofer suspension, no breaking in occurs in loudspeakers.

    What's known about people, however, is that their perception is quite variable and subject to all sort of bias and suggestion. This is a rather huge variable, in contrast to the electromechanical parameters of the tweeter, which are constant in time.

  11. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by jcandy View Post
    the electromechanical parameters of the tweeter, which are constant in time.
    You sure about that? Pretty lofty and closed ended statement.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

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  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by jcandy View Post
    Actually, no. If somebody says they do, ask what exactly part of the tweeter is changing. Aside from minor and largely inaudible compliance changes in the woofer suspension, no breaking in occurs in loudspeakers.

    What's known about people, however, is that their perception is quite variable and subject to all sort of bias and suggestion. This is a rather huge variable, in contrast to the electromechanical parameters of the tweeter, which are constant in time.
    Hey, you seem like a very clever fellow,, you should have your own Audio talk show,,

  13. #73

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    I think studies need to be done on all these topics.

    - speaker burn in
    - ICs
    - PCs
    - spkr wires

    Should there be a difference in what is output from speakers due to changing these items / changes in these items (ex. burn in) - in theory.

    If yes, then what is the root cause? The item? a connected component that can impact what is finally output from the speakers?

    If no, then why are people hearing differences?
    Are the differences psychological?
    Are they physiological?

    I'm generalizing, but you get where I'm going. Otherwise these "religion vs science" debates are going to continue forever.

    I, in general, just want to know "WHY" :)

    Ok. I'll shut up now. Carry on.
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  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by starless View Post
    Thanks. From this I managed to find a link to the actual article which is available at:
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...306.x/abstract
    (This might be behind a paywall, but I was able to access it from my work network.)
    You're lucky. Its not in the realm of journals I have access to. I would be willing to read it if someone will send me a copy.

    The abstract makes it pretty clear, however, that the work describes a methodology rather than validation of a specific hypothesis (like, does the tweeter response actually change in time).

  15. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by jcandy View Post
    You're lucky. Its not in the realm of journals I have access to. I would be willing to read it if someone will send me a copy.

    The abstract makes it pretty clear, however, that the work describes a methodology rather than validation of a specific hypothesis (like, does the tweeter response actually change in time).
    Hey candy man, ive got a good idea,, and you sound like you got the dough to do this,,, go out, and get 2 sets of polk, rtia3,s Play one set for 100, hours, then hook up the other, new set, a, and b, them, then, we will know, the true answer,,, just an idea,

  16. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    You sure about that? Pretty lofty and closed ended statement.
    In fact, I think its the default assumption. Look at your LCD monitor; does it improve with break-in? On the contrary, it functions in a stable, regular fashion until there is a component failure. If you started asserting that the "image detail" opens up and purples are more luscious, people would dismiss your assertions out-of-hand unless you backed them up.

    A related quandry would be, why would we expect the subjective quality of the tweeter's sound to improve rather than diminish over time? In fact, if I had to guess, I'd say a degradation is more likely. Like an old CRT television, I would guess it would be all downhill over the course of the components lifetime.

    Of course, in the case of a tweeter, the most likely thing is that subjective reports over 200-hour intervals are simply not reliable.

  17. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by thesurfer View Post
    Hey candy man, ive got a good idea,, and you sound like you got the dough to do this,,, go out, and get 2 sets of polk, rtia3,s Play one set for 100, hours, then hook up the other, new set, a, and b, them, then, we will know, the true answer,,, just an idea,
    Actually, something very much like this is on my to-do list. I am working on some audio projects with much bigger "payoff" now so it will have to wait. What I do will be based on objective measurements, so many here will reject the results out-of-hand when the null hypothesis is recovered.

    In more detail, I plan to do an en masse study of the measurable difference in all the "classic" audiophile bits: wire, capacitors, tweeters, power cords, polishing speaker cabs with yak butter, etc.

  18. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by jcandy View Post
    In fact, I think its the default assumption.
    So now it's an "assumption", the way you worded it before, it was a certainty.

    Which is it? Or does it depend on your audience or the validity of your particular point.

    H9
    Last edited by heiney9; 02-18-2011 at 03:18 PM.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

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  19. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    So now it's an "assumption", before the way you worded it, it was a certainty.

    Which is it? Or does it depend on your audience or the validity of your particular point.

    H9
    I was thinking the same thing,, Whats your natural candy man????

  20. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by jcandy View Post
    In fact, if I had to guess, I'd say a degradation is more likely.
    But you stated it was constant in time, again which is it? Now it degrades over time? If it's not subject to changing during break-in or atleast your assumption is the change is so slight as to be no existent. If it can't change over time, it can't degrade. If you agree/assume it can degrade over time (because changes occur) ergo you have to assume break-in can occur.

    H9
    Last edited by heiney9; 02-18-2011 at 03:28 PM.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

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  21. #81

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    I hope there isn't a max limit to my IL.
    "Just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you’re right." - Ricky Gervais

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  22. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    So now it's an "assumption", the way you worded it before, it was a certainty.
    That my daughter is not Supergirl is the default assumption; it is also a certainty.

    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    Which is it? Or does it depend on your audience or the validity of your particular point.
    It depends on the claim. That adding CO2 to the atmosphere causes an increase in globally-averaged temperatures is the default assumption, because it should according to some basic principles of college-level physics and chemistry. Certainly of this claim, however, requires more detailed analysis of the effect of clouds, solar forcing, and so on.

  23. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by thesurfer View Post
    I was thinking the same thing,, Whats your natural candy man????
    Are you being held hostage and typing with a pencil in your mouth?

  24. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by jcandy View Post
    Are you being held hostage and typing with a pencil in your mouth?
    Yeah,,, howed you know that????

  25. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by mdaudioguy View Post
    A lot of what's discussed here is not so much the easily measured stuff, like volume or frequency response. The critical parameter for most here seems to be the "soundstage" created by a pair of stereo speakers. This seems to be as much a perceptual phenomenon, as it is a physical one, perhaps moreso. So, how are you going to objectively measure someone's perception? All I can expect is for them to attempt to relate their perceptual experiences. Could they be real? Imagined? Does it matter?

    Taste the Kool-Aid - it's full of yumminess!
    Yes, everyone's perception is different - even my own, from one moment to the next, or one listening session to the next. I might find my attention drawn to the interesting bass line and completely overlook the fact that the high-hat sounds rather obviously smeared.

    Even though you say you can't measure someone's perceptions, surely you would admit that if I claimed I could hear obvious sonic differences while using a couple of these, and I was using poetic, folksy language to describe the sounds I hear, you might have some doubts?

    But like numerous posters in the various threads about power cords, I can simply claim that if you haven't tried them, you have no right to question how I came to my conclusions? And if we decide to test my claims by controlling the listening conditions, I will simply retreat into some nonsense about how the testing procedure itself is too stressful and inhibits my ability to hear the same differences that were so crystal clear before, or the equipment is not sensitive enough to reveal the obvious differences, or the test subjects hearing is obviously inferior to mine.

  26. #86

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    Does anyone else find it funny that members with "candy" in their names are prone to be trolls.
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
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    I still don't get why he's a "troll."
    It seems that term gets thrown around a lot in here. If I had to surmise a definition based on its application in the forum, I'd say a troll is anyone who's opinion deviates from that of a handful of very specific people.
    This is a very small pond and there are a few who fancy themselves very large fish.
    I've enjoyed the conversation and the different opinions from all sides, but fallacious comments and intellectual dishonesty of some people are really making me question the defensiveness of the "pro-break-in/burn-in" crowd.
    design is where science and art break even.

  28. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by mdaudioguy View Post
    A lot of what's discussed here is not so much the easily measured stuff, like volume or frequency response. The critical parameter for most here seems to be the "soundstage" created by a pair of stereo speakers. This seems to be as much a perceptual phenomenon, as it is a physical one, perhaps moreso. So, how are you going to objectively measure someone's perception? All I can expect is for them to attempt to relate their perceptual experiences. Could they be real? Imagined? Does it matter?

    Taste the Kool-Aid - it's full of yumminess!
    a very interesting set of points.

    The philosophical questions at the end may have been rhetorical, but I think that's a very good point. In the end, does it matter if it can be measured? There are thories out there that question whether we all hear the same at all.
    design is where science and art break even.

  29. #89

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    Where does he post? He tells us that we are hearing some sort of effect, and not the true sound. He posts a few articles and it is now fact that we can not hear a change? Do I say people are trolls that can't hear a difference? No I don't. People who show up and tell us what we hear and don't are trolls. If you can't step back and see that I don't know what to tell you.
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
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