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  1. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Freak View Post
    I don't have a lot of experience with 'voodoo' stuff. I try to concentrate on things that have real potential to improve the sound quality.
    I'm curious as to what components you are currently using in your 2-channel rig, if you are willing to share.
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  2. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by inspiredsports View Post
    I'm curious as to what components you are currently using in your 2-channel rig, if you are willing to share.
    I'd rather not get into a pissing contest about the specific components I use, because I fear that everything will get sidetracked into this:

    1. "I see your gear is not bad, but I'm afraid it's not good enough to resolve the finest details that we're discussing here", and so forth.

    But I do use solid state seperates from a reputable company with enough power to ensure that I've got the headroom for the SPL's that I normally listen at. I already said earlier in the thread that I recently purchased a pair of rti a9's (that I use for 2 channel listening also), which is how I ended up at this forum in the first place. I use ordinary cheap speaker cables (of sufficent gauge) and interconnects. My listening room is highly treated for reflections, etc.

    I should also say that I'm not the type of person who believes measurements tell everything. I do believe that the things we can hear *can* be measured, but the measurements cannot tell me what my preferences are. Speakers, especially, have very real differences that can be easily measured and heard. But which speaker a person prefers is totally subjective, since they all have trade-offs and sound different in different environments.

    Also, I do have extensive experience listening to live acoustic instruments (several hours a day for decades). I'm a professional musician and have a B.M. in Jazz Guitar Performance and M.M. in Composition.

    I like to think that I'm a critical listener with a well-trained ear, but I am also well aware of the cognitive biases and placebo effects that all humans are vulnerable to - so when deciding to make a purchase, I do make some effort to rule out that my brain is not tricking me.

    That's the only assertion I've tried to make here - that anyone making claims that seem to defy all measurements, and all controlled listening tests, should attempt to back up those claims with some description of how they arrived at their conclusions.

    On the other hand, if a person is simply describing their preferences: "Charlie, I've listened to those speakers you have, and to my ears they sound like s@#t.". That's fine. That's a preference and no right-minded person could argue with it.
    Last edited by Kenneth Swauger; 02-20-2011 at 08:44 AM.

  3. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Freak View Post
    I'm with you jcandy - but on club polk, presenting any silly nonsense such as facts, objective evidence, or measurements is strongly frowned on by the entrenched tweako audio cultist regulars.
    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Freak View Post
    It was just an example of the kind of 'proof' that high-end audio publications, and a certain group of posters here tend to offer when they make absurd claims about things like long speaker burn-in times, special cables (often costing thousands of dollars) and the like.
    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Freak View Post
    I don't have a lot of experience with 'voodoo' stuff. I try to concentrate on things that have real potential to improve the sound quality.
    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Freak View Post
    I'd rather not get into a pissing contest about the specific components I use, because I fear that everything will get sidetracked into this:

    1. "I see your gear is not bad, but I'm afraid it's not good enough to resolve the finest details that we're discussing here", and so forth.

    But I do use solid state seperates from a reputable company with enough power to ensure that I've got the headroom for the SPL's that I normally listen at. I already said earlier in the thread that I recently purchased a pair of rti a9's (that I use for 2 channel listening also), which is how I ended up at this forum in the first place. I use ordinary cheap speaker cables (of sufficent gauge) and interconnects. My listening room is highly treated for reflections, etc.

    I should also say that I'm not the type of person who believes measurements tell everything. I do believe that the things we can hear *can* be measured, but the measurements cannot tell me what my preferences are. Speakers, especially, have very real differences that can be easily measured and heard. But which speaker a person prefers is totally subjective, since they all have trade-offs and sound different in different environments.

    Also, I do have extensive experience listening to live acoustic instruments (several hours a day for decades). I'm a professional musician and have a B.M. in Jazz Guitar Performance and M.M. in Composition.

    I like to think that I'm a critical listener with a well-trained ear, but I am also well aware of the cognitive biases and placebo effects that all humans are vulnerable to - so when deciding to make a purchase, I do make some effort to rule out that my brain is not tricking me.

    That's the only assertion I've tried to make here - that anyone making claims that seem to defy all measurements, and all controlled listening tests, should attempt to back up those claims with some description of how they arrived at their conclusions.

    On the other hand, if a person is simply describing their preferences: "Charlie, I've listened to those speakers you have, and to my ears they sound like s@#t.". That's fine. That's a preference and no right-minded person could argue with it.

    Well, thanks at least for that explanation.

    I'm just trying to learn how when a poster asks a very specific question like, "I have 8 new RDO's; What's the burn in time" and then several experienced members here reply with a comment like, "My RDO-198's started to sound better at about 100 hours and improved up to 300 hours", that you start posting.

    Then your first post concurs with someone who has never worked with replacing SL tweeters with RDO's

    Next, you go on to post this is voodoo stuff, and further, why you can's specifically share your basis of comparison.

    I find it extremely disingenuous that our very specific advice based upon very specific experience to help the original poster is met with criticism based on what you think will happen if you post anything more specific than your disagreement.

    You state you don't want to get into a pissing contest (that you have already instigated), yet you haven't really demonstrated you can piss standing up.
    Last edited by Kenneth Swauger; 02-20-2011 at 08:44 AM.
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  4. #124

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    Well said Inspiredsports, and others who have heard changes.

    Somebody could solve this in this way.

    One who bought replacement RDO's a year ago, could replace them with new ones.
    I would do it but I can't really afford to this month. I think a set of Polks with one tweeter per speaker would be best for this switch out also.

    I said before, I thought I disliked (only because they sounded muted by just a little bit) my 4 new RDO -194 replacements to begin with.Then after a few weeks or months, what ever timeline it was, I liked their sound. And I either like a sound or don't, period. No getting used to this and that. I've heard over 100 different types of speakers in this same environment over 12 years and almost in the same set-up location to. If I didn't like the new RDO-194's now, I'd be looking for replacements. And I have quite a few pairs of speakers to gut out and use their nice tweeters or just buy 4 off of some other recomendation from somebody who had heard a perticular brand somewhere along the way.

    I don't think I was influenced by this forum to the fact that they will sound better by just giving them time. BUT, I did give them time to see if my ears would ever like them. I'm not a follower unless I'm following more knowlegable men. I asked for a capacitor recomendation here a week ago. I received some answers and then researched the answers. They were right.I followed and had a recomended pair delivered today. I don't know how they will sound compaired to others but I have a good feeling they directed me to ones in my budget.

    There's enough experience from the veterans here on Club Polk concerning Polk speakers, that I will follow their leads anytime when my Polk speakers are concerned.

    Have you heard a RDO replacement break-in? I have
    Last edited by Tony M; 02-19-2011 at 08:58 PM.
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  5. #125

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    I don't think anyone is arguing that people hear a change. The argument seems to be where the change is actually happening. It's a really interesting debate.
    design is where science and art break even.

  6. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by inspiredsports View Post
    Well, thanks at least for that explanation.

    I'm just trying to learn how when a poster asks a very specific question like, "I have 8 new RDO's; What's the burn in time" and then several experienced members here reply with a comment like, "My RDO-198's started to sound better at about 100 hours and improved up to 300 hours", that you start posting.

    Then your first post concurs with someone who has never worked with replacing SL tweeters with RDO's

    Next, you go on to post this is voodoo stuff, and further, why you can's specifically share your basis of comparison.

    I find it extremely disingenuous that our very specific advice based upon very specific experience to help the original poster is met with criticism based on what you think will happen if you post anything more specific than your disagreement.

    You state you don't want to get into a pissing contest (that you have already instigated), yet you haven't really demonstrated you can piss standing up.
    Well you're right. And I did admit earlier that my first post was over-the-top and probably seemed to come out of left field. So I'm sorry for being a douchebag there.

    But in my defense, I have seen objective posters here ripped apart over and over again in various threads. So while my first couple of posts in this thread may not seem very relevant to the exact topic, they were motivated by a feeling of general disdain for certain 'regulars' who engage in that sort of thing constantly.

    Also, I felt qualified to comment on the 'voodoo' aspect of this because in my own experience, I've never found any benefit to long speaker burn-in (hundreds of hours) with guitar amplifiers or new audio speakers of my own. I can't argue any of this from a scientific view, because I'm not an engineer... and since most of the 'regulars' here seem to place very little value on the science anyway, and much more importance on actual listening, I didn't think it would matter.

    But I never even got around to talking about that because of the hysteria that ensued (caused by me in the first place? lol).

  7. #127

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    Getting back to the point,, i told jcandy, what to do to solve this,, how to test this therory,,,, i know for a fact, that burn in time exits,,, my op, now, as far as other members, who have been on here for awhile,,, and downgrade others, for there non purist beliefs, yes, i agree, got insulted by one, or 2 allready, butting in, on a post, just to give there 2, cents, thats pretty much what has happend here,,, Simple question, about burn in time,,, Now its about does burn in time even exit,,,, that was not the original post,,,, jcandy,, freak,,, Start a different post,,, on the subject, DOES BURN in Exit,,,,

  8. #128

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    Mods, close this thread already! ...It's like watching a car accident!


    I'll sum up:

    Those who know...know
    Those who don't...doubt


    It's that simple!
    ..... ><////(*>

  9. #129

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    Quote Originally Posted by thesurfer View Post
    Getting back to the point,, i told jcandy, what to do to solve this,, how to test this therory,,,, i know for a fact, that burn in time exits,,, my op, now, as far as other members, who have been on here for awhile,,, and downgrade others, for there non purist beliefs, yes, i agree, got insulted by one, or 2 allready, butting in, on a post, just to give there 2, cents, thats pretty much what has happend here,,, Simple question, about burn in time,,, Now its about does burn in time even exit,,,, that was not the original post,,,, jcandy,, freak,,, Start a different post,,, on the subject, DOES BURN in Exit,,,,



    ????? English, Swahili, Martian ????

  10. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFox View Post
    ????? English, Swahili, Martian ????
    Whats your point?????

  11. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by thesurfer View Post
    Whats your point?????
    I think he wants the translation for what you meant above???
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone.

  12. #132

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    What do you think,,,, Dolt,,,

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    I think it's Russian???

  14. #134

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    You are correct,,,,

  15. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by newrival View Post
    I don't think anyone is arguing that people hear a change. The argument seems to be where the change is actually happening. It's a really interesting debate.
    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...tag-have-taste
    Since reported tastiness is a poor measure of true taste experience in the era of fMRI scanning machines, the researchers were careful enough to take a peek into their participant's brains as these tasted the wines, and found something fairly surprising: When tasting the wine out of the $10 bottle, the medial orbitofrontal cortex - an area of the brain that is strongly related to experiences of pleasure - showed only very little activity. When the exact same wine was poured out of a $90 bottle however, this brain area showed levels of activation which indicate that the participants were indeed drawing much more enjoyment from the same wine this time around. In other words, the price tag seemed to have a real physiological influence on the taster's taste experience.

    To understand what really seems to be happening here, one needs to have a little more understanding of how the brain operates. For example, although the medial orbitofrontal cortex is correlated with deriving pleasure from tastes, odor and even music, it is not the brains primary taste area (which would be the insula cortex, the ventroposterior medial nucleus of the thalamus, or the prabrachial nuclei of the pons). Interestingly enough, the primary taste areas show no significant differences in activation for the different experimental conditions.
    This offers the interpretation that the participant's taste experience is a combination of the actual sensory input as well as the participant's taste expectations. In the experiment the price tag seemed to awaken expectations that were sufficient to influence the resulting overall taste experience to cause what is essentially a Placebo effect. Participant's expected the wine to taste better, and subsequently it actually did taste better.

  16. #136

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    The toilet needs flushing.
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

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    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    The toilet needs flushing.
    http://www.erinblaskie.com/are-you-r...-the-internet/

    Another interesting point that Dr. Forni made on the show was that being rude is actually scientifically proven to make you sicker.

    When you emit rude behavior, you actually release harmful and specific hormones (catecholamines) into your body. It may make you feel powerful or empowered in the moment but in the long run, it?s doing you more harm than good.

    Catecholamines cause general physiological changes that prepare the body for physical activity (fight-or-flight response). Some typical effects are increases in heart rate, blood pressure, blood glucose levels, and a general reaction of the sympathetic nervous system.

    So, why are people so rude? Aside from anonymity meeting stress, people also feel insecure. When insecurities come up, we push our own insecurities aside by calling out other people?s mistakes or flaws or by talking down to people. Remember that if you are exhibiting certain behaviors toward others, it?s usually something you need to deal with yourself that exists inside of you.

  18. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    The toilet needs flushing.
    First, the pipes need to be rodded out.

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    Another one that knows how to use Google and cut and paste but can't/won't experience it for himself.

    Sad...................really sad.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

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    Pathetic

  21. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by jcandy View Post
    You are exactly 100% at odds with the owner of Harbeth, and 100% at odds with measurements. Do you have a permit to sell snake-oil here?
    ah yes, Harbeth. when you want to spend 5000 on a speaker that sounds like you spent 1000, and looks like you spent 350.00

    I have no problems being at odds with the guy. I could spend 5000 on a fake certificate that says I own the brooklyn bridge and feel like i got more for the money then a pair of frikken Harbeths......but as I say, it's all subjective ;)
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    2 Channel -
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  22. #142

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    My revelation about burn in for cables came about when I had two identical sets of speaker cables. One was a borrowed pair that had about 4-6 months use on them that were lent to me by a friend. I liked those cables so much I purchased an indentical new pair. While I still had the used ones, I replaced them with new ones (the exact setup). I was EXPECTING them to sound exactly the same. I was wrong. It was like someone had thrown a blanket over the speakers. So much for the "you hear what you think you will hear" theory. I switched the cables back and forth a couple of times and there was a very noticeable difference. I kept the new cables and let them "burn in" and was able to compare them against the originals some time later. The differences had gone away.

    I've noticed similar changes with speakers. Whether it is from the electronics or the physical movement...I don't know...I just know it changed for the better.

    I tend to believe anything dealing with electronic paths and/or circuits or movement will have some sort of break-in or burn-in period that will create change...either subtle or noticeable.

    I am now firmly in the "burn in" camp. If someone wants to know my opinion and/or experience...I am happy to share it with them. If you want to tell me it is my imagination or I'm wrong or that it is "snake oil"...eff you...I don't care.
    "Just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you’re right." - Ricky Gervais

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    Quote Originally Posted by shack View Post
    If you want to tell me it is my imagination or I'm wrong or that it is "snake oil"...eff you...I don't care.
    The only 'snake oil' I've noticed lately is from couple of spewing grease balls that have slithered their way in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shack View Post
    I am now firmly in the "burn in" camp.
    It's all in your head!

    I have come to the realization, after reading some very helpful info copy/pasted on to this thread, that it's not the cables and components that are burning-in, but my brain that is burning-in.

    So, the next time I smell rotten sewage somewhere, I'm going to stand at for 100 hours. The first few hours will be tough, cause the gut wrenching stench will cause alot of tearing-up, gagging and puking, but the mind will start to develop blockers for this by the tenth hour and the nose-burning odor will subside into more of a rotten stench smell. After 20 hours of stench and decay, it will slowly turn into more of a wavering rotten garbage smell with only slightly burning to the nose - mainly from my own vomit lying all around me. By 50 hours it will have improved greatly into a strong smell, but with a sweet base to it that will be pleasant to the nose and will bring a smile to my face - from relief because of the puking and tearing earlier. And by 100 hours, I should experience a overriding sense of joy for I will have completely changed my mind about the smell and my brain will realize that what is mistook for rotten sewage, was actually a gust of fresh mountain air blowing through a field of flowers!
    ..... ><////(*>

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    Quote Originally Posted by inspiredsports View Post
    I have an alternate idea:

    Why don't we use a collection of folks who have a better than "reasonable" audio perception, have been listening for thousands of hours per year spanning several decades, and have actually replaced tweeters (as well as drivers, wires, cables, caps, resistors, inductors, power conditioners, reseptacles, breaker boxes and hundreds of components) in numerous models of their own gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by tonyb View Post
    Stop it now...useing common sense is forbid in academia.
    Actually, if you're involved in scientific research, it's common sense not to let the sample set select itself.

  26. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    Another one that knows how to use Google and cut and paste but can't/won't experience it for himself.

    Sad...................really sad.
    Experience what for myself? Are you under the impression that I read books and don't listen to (or build) anything?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Freak View Post
    I'm with you jcandy - but on club polk, presenting any silly nonsense such as facts, objective evidence, or measurements is strongly frowned on by the entrenched tweako audio cultist regulars.
    Well, I own up to being an entrenched, tweako audio cultist, but I have not noticed that my writings on audio facts, objective evidence and measurements were strongly frowned on by most of our membership.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Freak View Post
    I think any reasonable person would agree that listening is very important, or even the most imporant thing in this hobby. The proof is in the pudding.

    But surely a person can't be expected to be taken seriously when his 'testing' methodology consists of - changing something in his audio setup, popping in his favourite Pink Floyd CD, and then coming to a forum and waxing poetic about the improved "air, rhythm and pacing"? Especially when his results seem to go against all known laws of physics, electronics, common sense, and previous blind tests by other experienced listeners? It's laughable.
    You may be surprised to find out that the people who invented modern stereophonic home audio systems preferred subjective testing methods with trained listeners.

    The references given in this thread can provide further insight:

    A Survey Of Early Stereophonic System Subjective Evaluation


    You should always keep in the forefront of your mind that stereophonic home audio systems were invented so that music lovers could experience a physical and emotional representation of the live concert experience in their homes. They were not invented to serve as fodder for endless debate and demands for proof that people can actually hear what they say they hear from their stereo systems.

    Blind tests in audio have been problematic because the tests are usually administered in ways that are unrealistic of the ways that people use audio systems in their homes. In blind medical trials and blind food and beverage trials, medicine and food and beverage are administered under controlled conditions, yet still identical to the way an ordinary consumer would use them. In blind audio trials, the testers typically use one or more elements that hinder the amount of sensory information that reaches the participant. I wrote more on this subject in this thread:

    A Historical Overview of Stereophonic Blind Testing


    With regard to sensitive hearing, a study done in 1980 by Petri-Larmi et al demonstrated that trained listeners using high quality stereo equipment and high quality recordings were able to discern extremely low levels of transient intermodulation distortion. The audibility threshold in that report was 0.003%. The citation is "Psychoacoustic Detection Threshold of Transient Intermodulation Distortion, by M. Petri-Larmi, M. Otala and J. Lammasniemi. It was published in the March 1980 issue of the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society. The abstract is as follows:

    "The audible threshold of transient intermodulation distortion (TIM) was determined for the six most sensitive subjects of the previously reported test series of 68 listeners. Improved equipment, carefully controlled listening environment, a digital TIM generator, and five recorded stereophonic music samples were used. The results show that in certain types of passages of music, a trained and sensitive listener can reliably detect extremely low values of distortion. Low distortion values were perceived only as changes in sound character, and not as distortion."

    Quote Originally Posted by jcandy View Post
    It is just a given that quantitative methods must fail. That is the smoking gun of delusion.
    Quote Originally Posted by jcandy View Post
    Actually, something very much like this is on my to-do list. I am working on some audio projects with much bigger "payoff" now so it will have to wait. What I do will be based on objective measurements, so many here will reject the results out-of-hand when the null hypothesis is recovered.

    In more detail, I plan to do an en masse study of the measurable difference in all the "classic" audiophile bits: wire, capacitors, tweeters, power cords, polishing speaker cabs with yak butter, etc.

    I am a physicist and its my job to sort out truth from fiction with respect to complicated problems. With practice the ability to do this dispassionately can be cultivated.
    I'm glad that you enjoy objective review. It is always a pleasure to make the acquaintance of a comrade-in-arms. In addition to the two articles mentioned above, you may find the following reports of interest.

    Loudspeaker Inductor Crosstalk Measurements

    Improvements To Modified SDA SRS 1.2TL Crossover

    The AI-1 Dreadnought Project Pt.1

    Studies On Residential Power Line Noise - Part 2



    Before you embark on your research venture, I hope you will take the opportunity to see what has been published in your areas of interest. Many people are not aware that there is a thriving audio engineering community within the IEEE and that a lot of the seemingly "magical" performance claims of audio products are actually based on valid peer-reviewed science. Two good places to start are the archival journals of the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE) and the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society.
    Last edited by DarqueKnight; 02-20-2011 at 08:16 PM.
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  28. #148

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    Raife is certainly more interested in the technical aspects of this hobby than I. While I admire his research and desire to understand the engineering that goes into all things audio...quite frankly it is of little interest to me. I am an end result audio enthusiast. I like what I like...regardless of the engineering. Sometimes the highly technical, lastest and greatest, "best" gear wins out. Sometimes it doesn't. The pleasure I attain when listening is the final arbiter. If a wire or a cap or a component or a tweek or "burn-in" makes the music sound different...then it sounds different...and that difference is factual for me. Better or not is for me to determine...not science...not engineering...not D/B/X testing...not anyone elses opinion. Only the sound that I hear that is pleasing to me. And IMO...I have a damn good ear.
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  29. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by fishbones View Post
    . . . so, the next time I smell rotten sewage somewhere, I'm going to stand at for 100 hours. The first few hours will be tough, cause the gut wrenching stench will cause alot of tearing-up, gagging and puking, but the mind will start to develop blockers for this by the tenth hour and the nose-burning odor will subside into more of a rotten stench smell. After 20 hours of stench and decay, it will slowly turn into more of a wavering rotten garbage smell with only slightly burning to the nose - mainly from my own vomit lying all around me. By 50 hours it will have improved greatly into a strong smell, but with a sweet base to it that will be pleasant to the nose and will bring a smile to my face - from relief because of the puking and tearing earlier. And by 100 hours, I should experience a overriding sense of joy for I will have completely changed my mind about the smell and my brain will realize that what is mistook for rotten sewage, was actually a gust of fresh mountain air blowing through a field of flowers!
    You might have found your true calling.
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  30. #150

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    I'd still like to read a copy of jcandy's thesis/dissertation after he so proudly proclaimed his Ph.D.
    VTL ST50 w/mods/RCA6L6GC/TlfnknECC801S
    CJPV-5 w/mods
    TT CJ Sonographe SG3 Oak/Sumiko LMT/Grado Wood Plat/Sumiko PIB2/The Clamp
    Musical Fidelity A1 CDPro
    Tuners w/mods Kenwood KT5020/Fisher KM60
    MF x-DAC V8, HAInfo NG27
    Herbies Ti-9/Vibrapods/MIT Shtgn AC1 IEC's/MIT Shotgun 2 IC's/MIT Shtgn 2 Speaker
    PSAudio Cryo PwrPrt Prem/ExctPwrEP15A
    Wlnt SDA 2B TL/Oak SDA SRS II TL-Sonicaps/Mills/Cardas/Cust SDA ICs/Mortite/Dynamat Extreme/TFLF Rings/FSB-2 Spikes
    NAD SS rigs w/mods
    GIK panels

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