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  1. #1

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    Default Heavy gauge speaker wire versus ACD technology

    In this thread I'll summarize some measurements made to assess the effects of length and gauge of speaker wire on loudspeaker performance. In addition, I'll give a preview of the effect of a new audio enhancement device I invented called the ACD, or aluminum cylindrical diffractor.

    All tests were performed with a Zaph ZMV5 monitor (DIY):



    All measurements are for sound pressure level (SPL) taken on a horizontal axis at a distance of 1m from the loudspeaker, at a vertical height midway between woofer and tweeter centers. From a theoretical point of view, SPL is the magnitude of the instantaneous pressure (which has both an amplitude and phase in the same sense that an AC voltage has an amplitude and phase). Since its the pressure variation that your ear detects and converts to auditory information, measurements such as these are in fact highly representative of what you will hear.
    Last edited by jcandy; 02-18-2011 at 10:52 PM.

  2. #2

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    Yawn....
    HT Setup... Pioneer Elite SC-37, Polk Audio SDA-SRS 1.2TL's , Oppo BDP 93
    Two Channel... Carver Statement 450~1 Vacuum Tube Monoblocks, Dodd Mid-line Tube Linestage with Psvane 12Ax7 tubes, Pioneer Pdd 9Mk II SACD Player, Yamaha PX-3 Turntable with Sumiko BPS EvoIII, Polk Audio SDA-SRS 1.2TLs.


    "Everything we have fought for has been lost, and everything we fought against, we have become...."

  3. #3

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    Default 3 types of speaker cable

    The test compares three different interconnects (i.e., three sorts of speaker wire):

    1. Thick, medium run: 12 Gauge AR wire (84 inches)
    2. Thin short run: 16 Gauge Dayton wire (49 inch)
    3. Thin long run: 16 Gauge Dayton wire (256 inch)

    Tables of acceptable wire lengths versus gauge can be easily found with a quick Google search. Consulting these tables shows that while both wire (1) and wire (2) are acceptable, wire (3) is generally considered to be unacceptable.

    The AR wire:



    The short and long runs of Dayton wire:


  4. #4

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    Default Two acceptable interconnects compared

    The first test compares the AR wire with the short run of Dayton wire. These are both considered acceptable interconnects and they produce an SPL so similar that not even Lassie (RIP) could tell the difference:



    Even zooming in shows shockingly little effect:



    Remember that +/- 1 dB is generally considered to be at the limit of discernability when it comes to loudspeaker SPL changes.


  5. #5

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    wouldnt this be better done without banana connectors to affect the overall quality of the signal sent to the speaker? also, are said speakers broken in, wires broken in, and what will be driving these speakers? what interconnects? what source? also, explain the purpose of and how it works for the aluminum cylindrical diffractor

    also, what will be used to measure overall sound quality?

    if you are hitting 80+ decibels consider hearing protection as well, no sense in harming good ears!
    Last edited by silvertuner; 02-18-2011 at 11:03 PM.

    some cheap free sony speakers
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  6. #6

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    Holy ****, Man! You sure you built Zaph speaker? Your FR graph is measured, I supposed?

    What's with the 10db dip in Pic 1 from Post # 4?

    If you think you are really comparing speaker wire gauge with this technique, I could tell you that you are hitting the wrong button again.

  7. #7

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    im intrigued by this and hope to learn much from mr. candy. i may be replacing my 14/2 aq's for some daytons soon!

    some cheap free sony speakers
    psw125
    denon 1610
    3.1 channel because i hate cables ran across the living room like that

  8. #8

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    Default Using a very long run of 16 gauge wire

    The maximum acceptable run (versus gauge) of wire depends mainly on the minimum impedance of your loudspeaker. For instance, if you have a pair of 1 Ohm speakers, you're going to need massive speaker wire to ensure the speaker wire doesn't interact with the crossover transfer function. On the other hand, if you have 16 Ohm speakers, even the most anemic speaker wire is probably going to work for you.

    That said, here is what happens when you connect the ZMV5 (these have a minimum impedance of about 5 Ohms at approximately 4kHz, and never exceed about 6 Ohms between 1kHz and 10KHz).



    I'll remind you again that even though this is a rather egregious violation of the "rules of length versus gauge", the effect is about a factor of 5 below the limit of audibility -- mine, at least. Lassie could probably hear the difference, though.

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    Default Effect of the ACD (Aluminum Cylindrical Diffractor)

    After consideration of the possibility to use diffraction to tailor the SPL, I came up with the idea of the ACD. The details of the construction are perhaps too technical for this forum, so they are skipped for brevity. However, here is a photo of the device in action:



    The number of veils lifted using this novel technology are infinite (but countable in the set-theoretic sense). The results are shown below:



    In this test, I have fixed the speaker interconnect (to the 12 Gauge AR cable) and only added the ACD.

  10. #10

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    ....and the point is what exactly ? Measurements for SPL's ? That tells me alot about sound quality. What good is spl's in respect to cable ? I mean if spl is what your after, get some klipsch and home depot 14 ga. and be done. Your ears may not thank you however. Find me a tool, besides ones own ears, that can measure soundstage,tone, imaging, then we'll talk.

  11. #11

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    I think there are better places for you to put the Pepsi can... Obviously you do not know a thing about which you speak. If you did, there would be a Coke can on the speaker instead.
    HT Setup... Pioneer Elite SC-37, Polk Audio SDA-SRS 1.2TL's , Oppo BDP 93
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    "Everything we have fought for has been lost, and everything we fought against, we have become...."

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    dude where can i buy one of those? i got a few grand to spend on strictly audio right now so i want one, i can tell it helps. does it need broke in as well? how much time would you say for break in typically? i assume you set it on your speakers and it absorbs resonance thru the cabinet and transfers it into a substance you can consume and not only hear, but TASTE THE MUSIC!!!!! ****IN BADASS YOU DA MAN!

    some cheap free sony speakers
    psw125
    denon 1610
    3.1 channel because i hate cables ran across the living room like that

  13. #13

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    So whats ACR?

    I still think you are a douchebag for continuing to try and stir things up with this comment.

    The details of the construction are perhaps too technical for this forum, so they are skipped for brevity.
    --Gary--

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    Quote Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post
    I think there are better places for you to put the Pepsi can... Obviously you do not know a thing about which you speak. If you did, there would be a Coke can on the speaker instead.
    Amen to that. We don't know if the can is full or empty. Could cause his results to differ. Plus if any humid air is in the can,well, that might throw everything out of wack.

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    And is the Pepsi still fizzy or flat?? Cause I am sure it makes a difference.
    --Gary--

  16. #16

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    All joking aside, I think you have serious issue with that FR Graph from Post 4.

    You got wide swings (between 5dB peaks and 10dB dibs in the 10KHz-20KHz regions). It's scary! Double check your speaker design or XO for that matter.
    Last edited by megasat16; 02-18-2011 at 11:45 PM.
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone.

  17. #17

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    dude im 3/4 drunk and understand what this thread is about. i got ac/dc on blast and half a fifth left of some jim beam and i can still be a sarcastic *******, so please, link us to the "how its made" channel on youtube so we can see wtf is going on.

    also, at risk of being banned from this amazing and technically informing site i will refrain from telling you that you are an epic douchebag.

    but i learned alot from this thread. i still want a aluminum cylindrical diffractor device, unfortunately it currently replaced by a glass cylindrical diffractor, think it makes a difference? i think so, less resonance and lower break-in time and overall life expectancy.

    someone delete my posts if they wanna, im just ranting really. i love you all, and especially love this site, and the OP very much.

    some cheap free sony speakers
    psw125
    denon 1610
    3.1 channel because i hate cables ran across the living room like that

  18. #18

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    btw, you have some ugly furniture. also, replace your carpeting for 1980's shag carpeting. that sh*t rocks like WHOA

    some cheap free sony speakers
    psw125
    denon 1610
    3.1 channel because i hate cables ran across the living room like that

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by megasat16 View Post
    All joking aside, I think you have serious issue with that FR Graph from Post 4.

    You got wide swings (between 5dB peaks and 10dB dibs in the 10KHz-20KHz regions). It's scary! Double check your speaker design or XO for that matter.
    Sorry to say but I think it's a coincident if what you posted on the above post is true FR measurement, I can now understand why you don't or can't hear a tweeter break in.
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyb View Post
    Amen to that. We don't know if the can is full or empty.
    It's half full... what the hell can I say. I am an optimist!:tongue:

    Quote Originally Posted by silvertuner View Post
    but i learned alot from this thread. i still want a aluminum cylindrical diffractor device, unfortunately it currently replaced by a glass cylindrical diffractor, think it makes a difference? i think so, less resonance and lower break-in time and overall life expectancy.

    I think you may have a problem with the reproduction of a high "C" note, especially if you are using Memorex as a playback medium.
    Last edited by nooshinjohn; 02-18-2011 at 11:52 PM.
    HT Setup... Pioneer Elite SC-37, Polk Audio SDA-SRS 1.2TL's , Oppo BDP 93
    Two Channel... Carver Statement 450~1 Vacuum Tube Monoblocks, Dodd Mid-line Tube Linestage with Psvane 12Ax7 tubes, Pioneer Pdd 9Mk II SACD Player, Yamaha PX-3 Turntable with Sumiko BPS EvoIII, Polk Audio SDA-SRS 1.2TLs.


    "Everything we have fought for has been lost, and everything we fought against, we have become...."

  21. #21

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    I take it back everything doesn't matter cause this doesn't matter!!!

    Yawn!
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    Wrong forum....this should be in "DIY, Mods & Tweaks" forum.

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by dragon1952 View Post
    Wrong forum....this should be in "DIY, Mods & Tweaks" forum.
    Correction my good man, should be in the " Bozo troll's with nothing to do" forum....somewhere in Iran.

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post
    I think you may have a problem with the reproduction of a high "C" note, especially if you are using Memorex as a playback medium.

    s@#t! i dont dare mix dark with light, that leads to rough mornings. i will replace the glass cylindrical diffractor tomorrow for aluminum.
    Last edited by Kenneth Swauger; 02-23-2011 at 02:15 PM.

    some cheap free sony speakers
    psw125
    denon 1610
    3.1 channel because i hate cables ran across the living room like that

  25. #25

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    Default Control test (should give identical results)

    I did the actual measurements in this order:

    1. AR 16 gauge
    2. AR 16 gauge with ACR
    3. Dayton short run
    4. Dayton long run
    5. AR 16 gauge (repeat)

    As a test of the possibility of errors introduced during the course of evaluation, I repeated the first measurement at the end of the testing. This is an estimate of the systematic error. Between measurements 2 and 3, 3 and 4, and 4 and 5, there was probably a slight shifting of the loudspeaker with respect to the microphone, caused by the need to connect and disconnect the banana plugs.



    It also started to rain outside, changing the ambient (background) noise level. Anyhow, this is a good indication of the high resolution of the measurements.

  26. #26

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    ANSWER ME!!! were all cables broken in already? what sources? did you have a proper ground loop isolator installed? who wired the house? what solder was used on the circuit boards? cardas silver i hope? just curious

    some cheap free sony speakers
    psw125
    denon 1610
    3.1 channel because i hate cables ran across the living room like that

  27. #27

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    From my first view it looks like someone is trying to figure out this thing called wire and proof if it makes a difference.
    Then after reading the comments I'm assuming this person is a trouble maker? I have not read any of his posts until now. Calling an entire forum not smart enough to go technical is pure bovine excrement. How the hell can this person make that kind of blanket statement? I ask this in return , who trained you in the ways of testing? In proper calibration? In AWG? Did Google? AVS forum? Are you certified in anything in our industry? Have any Professional experience?

    I vote for dude to leave this forum now and go back to where ever he came. Retract your blanket comments and apologize for your ignorance , then maybe you can stay around and maybe we as a collective could understand your experiment here.
    Last edited by Kenneth Swauger; 08-19-2011 at 08:31 AM.
    Dan
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  28. #28

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    In the past people have posted that placing weight on top of the speaker changes the sound.

    I have 2 lb paving blocks on top of my LSi15s in the HT. However, other than my ears, I do not have any other type of measuring device, but they did seem to clear up the sound a bit. Heavier weight seemed to smother it.

    My personal feeling is that since speakers make sound by vibrating the weights help absorb/prevent cabinet vibrations which would interact with the speaker vibrations, and cause a tiny bit of distortion. Then again, as the 'experts' say, maybe I am just imagining it.

    My source of esoteric tweaks, Mapleshade, naturally recommends brass weights for speakers, and recommends against using rock, but says it is better than nothing. I guess I need to upgrade some day.

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by mantis View Post
    From my first view it looks like someone is trying to figure out this thing called wire and proof if it makes a difference.
    Then after reading the comments I'm assuming this person is a trouble maker? I have not read any of his posts until now. Calling an entire forum not smart enough to go technical is pure bovine excrement. How the hell can this person make that kind of blanket statement? I ask this in return , who trained you in the ways of testing? In proper calibration? In AWG? Did Google? AVS forum? Are you certified in anything in our industry? Have any Professional experience?

    I vote for dude to leave this forum now and go back to where ever he came. Retract your blanket comments and apologize for your ignorance , then maybe you can stay around and maybe we as a collective could understand your experiment here.
    very well said
    Last edited by Kenneth Swauger; 08-19-2011 at 08:30 AM.

    some cheap free sony speakers
    psw125
    denon 1610
    3.1 channel because i hate cables ran across the living room like that

  30. #30

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    Default Delta plots

    We can summarize all the results by plotting the SPL differences. From all measurements I subtract the baseline AR 12 Gauge measurement. Here are the results:



    Summary: because people tend to be more sensitive to response irregularities (and to peak in the FR more than troughs), the influence of the ACR may in fact be more noticeable than using the demonstrably "inadequate" long run of 16 gauge wire. In fact, the 16 gauge wire, because it leaves the low-frequencies unaltered (the LF impedance is quite high -- about 8 Ohms) while ever-so-slightly attenuating the HF, will result in a "softer" presentation that the 12 gauge AR. or short run of 16 gauge. This may be preferable in an active room.

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