bear with me, and help please!!

[Trypt]

The writing in the following quote is an introduction, since I'm a noob, skip it if not interested.

I say bear with me because this will be a big post, I have this unfortunate (some say fortunate) habit of writing essays on forums, I just get lost.

In any case, first an introduction and a bit of background. If you're not interested in getting to know a new member, just skip the quoted part and go to the bottom where I get into my audio ideas and questions.

I'm a Canadian, immigrated in 1990 from Slovenia, a few months before it became a country, so in fact I immigrated from Yugoslavia, strictly speaking. Born and raised in Maribor, an alpine city in the mountains, but really "grew" up, teenage years and 20s, until now, in Toronto and surrounding areas.

There is no end to my interests and hobbies, audio/music as well as film just happens to be one of them, but it's an equal passion to my love for astrophysics (studying the cosmos), chemicals and their effect on neurology and psychology (especially the illegal kind, my thesis was actually on this subject, and I was the test subject to prove my hypothesis, and it is now a theory, success!) And of course the human condition, history and politics, and all these happen to be what I have degrees in (physics/chem is a double major, and two minors in history and politics).

My real passion is the pursuit of truth, all knowledge (the tiny fraction of a percentage that is possible for any human to gather in a lifetime, but that doesn't bother me) and most importantly, liberty from all kinds of tyranny, whether from bullies, or organized criminals like governments.

I have spent the last 10 years studying, with full interest and major investment of time, the way the world works. I already understood how the physical world works since I was a child, and can tell you anything about the universe, including countless hypotheses on our future in space and any other subject involving the physical world (the universe), so in my late teens I wanted to equally understand politics and economics.

Really, I wish I did not, the price one must pay in order to learn the truth about the workings of the world, the human conditions, the way its run, is very high, it can really drive some people completely insane, but I've always had this ability to not be bothered by things which are truly beyond my control, so I am ok, but I am very careful on who I decide to share all my knowledge on this with, and explain to them the consequences of that knowledge. As you may have guessed, mainly I'm talking about the world class system, the economic system, the idea of democracy and politics in general, and what role the elite and people in power play in global events, even when they appear random or based on catch phrases such as "recession", "inflation", "terrorism", "democracy" etc.

In any case, I just wanted to introduce myself as much as is possible in a few words, now to the audio system!

My first car was a 1991 Trans Am GTA. I have included a diagram of the setup (hxxp://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx359/Salvinorum/Audio/audiodiagramfortommy.jpg), but needless to say, I was, and am, a huge Fosgate fan, and of course I know Boston Acoustics makes great stuff so I had no doubts about getting my fronts from BA. I have since sold it all including the car, and have been looking for good 6.5" components that can take decent power but are of lower then 4ohm impendence, and that was proving difficult. Until I found Polk Audio, and not only is everything a perfect resistance, the reviews are all stunning, and prices reasonable! I'm not sure about the sub, I'll see what you say about that, or even the amp, but the components are a given, I think I'm sold on them.

I own a 2002 Dodge Intrepid R/T, and will for a couple years still, so putting a system in is a must, and when I decide to get my BMW, I will either move the stuff over (the sub/amp certainly) or sell if they won't fit.

In any case, here is what I'm looking at, I love the simplicity of a one amp solution, and the fact everything fits perfectly into my car. After I list it all, what I would love is your opinions on the components, and how they would work together, and whatever questions I have as I continue.

As I list the components, I will include an amazon link rather then polk audio link so that the prices are also seen so you know how much I'm willing to spend if you happen to have an alternative suggestion/idea. I won't go into much detail with every component, but after I will share my plan and why I chose this setup.


AMP: I came accross this amp today while searching around for a 5 channel amp, I don't know what came over me, I always assumed I will go with the tried and true mono sub amp and a 2/4 channel mid/high amp, but I did. And I found this: Polk Audio PA 1100.5 -= hxxp://www.amazon.com/Polk-Audio-Pa1100-5-5-Channel-Amplifier/dp/tech-data/B0016LY6MA/ref=de_a_smtd =-

I've researched many 5 channel amps since, and nothing comes even close to this one as far as my needs and power/price ratio, not to mention its a D class amp all around, wow. It is rated around 75W per the 4 channels into 4ohm, and 125W into 2ohm, and about 200W for the sub channel at 4ohm, but importantly a nice 600W at 1ohm (which is what I run my subs at of course). Now this has always bothered me because most speakers are rated 4ohm so that means that you get only half of the amps potential unless you run two 4ohm speakers on the same channel in parallel, but that gets pricey and you have no control over the individual speakers that way. But as you are about to see with the component set I chose, this is not a problem!


Speakers (two parts, two choices, need major input from you experts here):

COMPONENTS: While I have found 2ohm components from Orion, they are extremely expensive, no doubt amazing, but that is pretty much the extent of my luck. So you can imagine my amazement when I saw Polk components are rated at 2.7ohms, a pretty much perfect rating, not useless like 4ohm but not quite 2ohm so that the amp has some breathing room, amazing. In any case, they are: Polk Audio MM6501 6.5" midrange speakers with a 1" tweater (6.5 are my favorite size, although I also love 5.25" components, but my car fits 6.5", I may add 5.25s on floor panels in the future, but will probably not even think about that once I'm done). hxxp://www.amazon.com/Polk-Audio-AA6514-6-5-Inch-Speaker/dp/B001C3K7I4/ref=pd_cp_e_1

REARS: For some reason, my car has two 6x9s in the rear, not on the doors, but on the back behind the seats under the rear window on top of the trunk. Now, my original thought and plan was to just take them out and leave them out of the system all together. But Polk Audio happens to have the exact ones of high quality, although I'm not sure what purpose they would have. Since my two subs will be right below them in the trunk (I had 4x10" before, I'm leaning towards 2x12" this time just for some difference, but I loved the 4 10s, I hope the 12s kick like that too but just add a bit more depth and rumble when needed). In any case, even if I was to put the two 6x9s into the holes, I would run a filter for midbase only, I would not want any highs to come out of them to ruin my stage. But then this may interfere with the sub frequencies that would be coming about 12 inches underneath. If the speakers were in the rear doors, this would be a given, I would run them mid-base, even tho they are full range speakers, it's a sacrifice I would make.

So, this brings up a problem. If I can't find a use for the two rear channels on the amp, then really I may as well have a 4ohm component set for the front stage and bridge the channels, but in order to find 250W 6.5" components takes time and lots of money. Right now those 6.5s would be getting approx 110W, which is 90% of their rated RMS power, which is absolutely perfect.

Another solution is to get a good 5.25" pair for the floor panels and run those from the rear channels, but I don't have the money for that right now, not even close.

So, should I just leave the two rear channels empty for now? Connect them to the stock 6x9s in the back and just lower the gain by a lot? There is no equivalent 3 channel amp that Polk makes, but I wouldn't want that anyway.

Does any of this make sense?

SUBS: This is the area where I'm not sure if I am going with Polk. If the amp puts out 600W into 1ohm, I want 2 DVC (4ohm per coil) subs in parallel, and I was thinking of the Fosgate 12" 4ohm DVC's, P3 series, they are each rated for 500W RMS, so 600W for the both of them would be nice, even tho like I said, I prefer to run everything at 75% capability, so 750W would be perfect. I don't know much about Polk subs, but it seems two MM1240-DVC would actually be perfect, as they would together handle 850W RMS, which is actually perfect for the above mentioned amp.

I'm bored of typing, I'm sure I missed something, but please lets get this thread going with as much info as you're willing to share so I can make my decision. Remember, I'm new to Polk, so I don't mind ideas outside of Polk, and please share any ideas for my car, if you think I'm making a mistake anywhere.

And lastly, does anyone know the true tested power of the PA 1100.5 at 14.4V in a car? I don't know about Polk, but I know Fosgate rates theirs at 12V, so the power output in the car is usually way higher then what is written on the box.

[MacLeod]

Get the 5 channel cause it is excellent.

Get the MM components for the front but no rears. Run the tweeters off the front amp chanels thru the crossover and the rear channels will run the mids full range. If your head unit has a good 3 way crossover, use it instead of the passive.

Not sure if this answers your question or not since I just skimmed your post cause its way too long for somebody with my attention span to read.

[arun1963]

Fix a budget and figure out what you want from the install. Do you want sound that can be cranked and hear it coming from everywhere, or do you want to hear a decent home 2ch setup, while driving around? The second option will not get as loud as the first. I mention this cause, you feel that the impedance of the speakers and hence the power they get is important. If you're after sq you don't need rears like Mac mentioned.

For the sake of this example let's assume your budget is 1K. Of this I would spend a good 60-65% on the hu and speakers. These are the most important parts of your sound chain. The balance 35% would go towards amps and damping the doors which is a must for both options above.

If the budget is tighter, I would look at getting a good used hu and amp and maybe looking at diy drivers for the speakers. I would still spend in the same ratio and focus on getting the right stuff.

BTW welcome to CP. I too have essayitis at times.

[Trypt]

Ok I decided on the amp, I will get it.

I am after SQ of course, that is why I mentioned not using the rears at all, or with midbass fq only.

That being said, I want to be able to have serious SPL when needed, and I don't see why not with 600W going into two 12" subs.

I had a 50.1 Power Fosgate running 4x10" RF fosgate (bottom of the line) subs, and it absolutely rocked, and that amp pushed maybe 350W into those subs, and the subs were rated at 200W RMS each, so they were getting less then 50% of their recommended RMS power.

The Polk subs I mentioned are rated at 425W each, with dual 4ohm coils, which means they could be wired to 1ohm perfectly, and 600W would be absolutely ideal for them, and they should pound way more then my old fosgate setup which already destroyed most ears when I wanted them to.

Of course the subs are going to be in a sealed box, SQ is the most important.

But what I don't get is why would you have me run the mids and the tweeters on their own channels? At 2.7ohm and 125W RMS rating, the components are perfect to run from one channel each (left and right), with the included crossover.

I would rather keep the rear channels empty for now and perhaps use them in the future to add another component set, a 5.25" one perhaps, on the floor panels or something similar.

However, please enlighten me, what would the advantage be to running the mids off the rear channels, the tweets off the fronts and the sub from the 5th? The amp has good x-overs? Also, the head unit will be good, I haven't decided yet, but it will be more then 2V for sure, and 3RCA so it will be able to control each of the sub/front/rear channels of the amp. I don't know what fits into my car yet, I have to do some research, but I do want one with a nice touch screen.

[MacLeod]

For sound quality, you want the fewest drivers possible. Having rear speakers means youve got the same frequencies hitting your ears at different times because they're at different distances than the fronts. This causes cancellation and blurring of detail.

By running the mids and tweets off independent amp channels you get a lot more flexibility in tuning them which leads to a lot more SQ potential. Running them together means you can't turn one tweeter up without turning the mid up as well. With bi-amping, at the very least you can tune the tweeters output without affecting the mids simply by adjusting the front or rear gains.

[DSkip]

If you are after SQ first like you say you are, then you will/should have as many tuning options available as you can get. Bi-amping like Mac mentioned is one of those tuning options and gives you better control over each individual driver.

Its not a question of power. Look at is as more of having control over that power.

[Trypt]

Indeed.. however, this 5 channel amp we're talking about, how much power will it put into the tweeters if I run them from the front channels? I know the mids are 2.7ohms and will get probably close to 125W which they are rated for, which is great, but what is the resistance of the tweeters, and thus, how much will they end up pulling from the amp?

So, what you're saying so far is to just get the 5 channel amp mentioned earlier, run the tweets from the front channels, run the 6.5" from the rear channels (full range?), and the subs from the sub channel.

Nobody has commented on the subs yet at all. I've mentioned a couple options above, is it ok? Should I go with 10s instead for more SQ? Maybe 1 higher end sub over 2 mid-end ones? In any case, the sub(s) will be getting 600W RMS.

Oh and another thing, since I'll be running the mids and tweets from seperate channels, I won't need the crossover that comes with the component set, so should I be buying seperate mids and tweets or still buy the set I mentioned in the OP?

[DSkip]

You will still need the crossover unless the amp (or head unit) has a crossover that goes up to 5khz. Otherwise, you'll toast those tweets. If you are wanting SQ, then 1 stellar sub will always trump 2 OK subs. If you have the choice, go with a 12". Being a 10 or 12 has no difference in quality of bass, just the frequencies it plays. A 12" will be able to go lower than a 10" would and would be ideal if you are cutting off in the 40-80hz range like you should be.

Just like they argue in home audio, don't get caught up in power numbers. I have SR5250s running off about 45 RMS and an SR104DVC running off about 100 RMS. It does everything I need it to do and leaves me no reason to upgrade to a more powerful amp. My setup is focused completely on SQ and it gets plenty loud. Loud enough that you can't hear the guy sitting next to you.

[eprater1]

buy this amp http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110172 :)

[Trypt]

eprater, that's an awesome amp, but he wants the same price as the brand new Polk 5 channel goes for (the one I'm talking about getting) on ebay, I know it's listed as $700, but I can get it for under $350 brand new, and that Memphis he is asking about the same for, and while it's a bit more powerful, I don't see it making a difference and it is long-time used and with a broken crossover.

[Trypt]

I just noticed that you're the seller. Give me the full price shipping included to postal code L5A 4E6 (Mississauga, ON, CA) and we'll talk. It is an awesome amp there is no question about that.

[Trypt]

I bought the Polk 5 channel. So 600W RMS for the 5th channel, now I need a sub(s).

Don't worry eprater1, I have a guy who is very interested, I just have to show him the details I'll get back to you tomorrow about your Memphis, and I may even keep that and give up the Polk, we'll see.

In any case, should I stick to Polk subs? And what would be better for both SPL (when wanted, rarely) and SQ (always wanted, but with serious base). Would two 12" MM series (MM12240DVC in parallel to 1ohm to take the full 600W rms from the amp, thus getting about 75% of their max rated RMS power (they are 425W each)) be better, or should I go with the high end SR series, and just get one 12" SR124, which is rated at 700W RMS so it will be getting almost 100% of its rated power, but it will be only one sub.

Other companies are also good, I'm open to suggestion, but it must be either 1 or 2 12" subs, in a sealed box (quality!). Thanx for any suggestions.

[arun1963]

I would go with 1 12" SR over 2 12" MM's. Get a DVC and hook it up at 2 ohms. The sub would get about 400 watts, which will be plenty.

[Trypt]

Could you elaborate a bit? I am guessing that with equal power (lets say the Polk will give it 600W RMS exactly for argument sake), the two MMs will pound a bit more, meaning give more SPL (what, about 2-3 db maybe?) but will not sound as clear and deep while doing it? I have no experience with single sub setups at all, I've always ran 2 or 4, and in the 90s single sub setups were unheard of but now they seem to be the way to go, for whatever reason, and I want to learn why.

Any elaboration on that opinion would do. Is it also because the single SR will be getting almost exactly its rated RMS power whereas the other two will be getting 60% (in my experience anything between 40-90% RMS power given to the subs is fine with little difference except of course SPL, and even that is minor, a couple db going from say 300 to 500 watts on a sub rated at 600w). Am I wrong?

The SR Polk sub is a great sub then for SQ and SPL for my application (600W RMS)? Is there another company that I should look at for subs at similar prices, perhaps companies known for subs such as Kicker or JL, JBL etc?

All in all, does everyone agree that for my Polk amp I should spend my budget on 1 quality sub rather then two that cost the same as the one? I will spend the same amount of money whether I get 1 or 2, and also, sealed is the way to go right?

[arun1963]

I've always ran 2 or 4, and in the 90s single sub setups were unheard of but now they seem to be the way to go, for whatever reason, and I want to learn why.

Maybe the cars got smaller, maybe the population is older and space is now at a premium. A lot of groceries / family stuff would fit into the space taken by 3 subs.

It's not that one sub will sound cleaner or dig deeper. The SR is just a better sub than the MM line. The SR will have a flatter FR vs the MM's. The quality and size of the box is more important than the power you give the sub. 400-450 watts to the SR sub should be plenty. Of course 800w will play it louder, keeping everything constant. Depends on what you want.

A sealed box will give you a flatter response, with a tight and accurate bass reproduction. Ported enclosures are typically larger and will have a peak around the 30-45hz mark, depending on box and port size. The ported enclosure will play louder than the sealed one. If you're going for SQ I would suggest the sealed option.