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  1. #1

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    Default Dual LSiC vs Single LSiC with upgraded Xover

    I feel like the weakest link in my setup right now is my center channel, even though it comes from the same series. Its being powered by an outlaw7700 so its getting plenty of power (300watts @ 4ohms). I'm trying to decide If I want to try running dual LSiC centers, or upgrading the xover in the one i have now. What do you guys think?
    HT:
    TV: Samsung UN55C8000 | Player: OPPO BDP-95 | Games: Xbox360 / PS3 | Party Music: Squeezebox Duet
    Mains: LSi15 | Center: LSiC | Surrounds: LSiFX | Sub: SVS 20-39pci
    Pre-Amp: Outlaw 990 | Power-Amp: Outlaw 7700
    Cabinet: Salamander Synergy Twin 30 | Speaker Wire: Lowes 12AG w/ monoprice banana plugs

  2. #2

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    Upgrade the center. I have done a few LSIc's and it really brings the center stage to life.
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
    Ben

  3. #3

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    Do you have a favorite part selection that you could point me to on the Xover, there seem to be a lot of options.
    HT:
    TV: Samsung UN55C8000 | Player: OPPO BDP-95 | Games: Xbox360 / PS3 | Party Music: Squeezebox Duet
    Mains: LSi15 | Center: LSiC | Surrounds: LSiFX | Sub: SVS 20-39pci
    Pre-Amp: Outlaw 990 | Power-Amp: Outlaw 7700
    Cabinet: Salamander Synergy Twin 30 | Speaker Wire: Lowes 12AG w/ monoprice banana plugs

  4. #4

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    Here is the first LSI's mods that I know of that have been done.
    http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71515
    Also there are a few others that have done them. I recommend SonicCaps on the highs and Dayton's on the lows. There are better caps for the lows, but they take up much more room and cost a lot more for what you get out of them.
    You will need these SonicCaps
    2 18uf
    2 12uf
    2 18uf Dayton's
    2 1.5r 12 watt Mill's resistors
    2 1r 12watt Mill's resistors
    There are also 2 260uf caps in there that I don't recommend changing on the C's. The cabinet is too small to accommodate those large expensive caps.
    The LSI's are one of the hardest crossovers to do. Make sure you can do it. If you don't feel up to it I do them for Polkies. Also look up LSI crossover upgrades. McLoki and DarqueKnight have done the LSIc's.
    Have Fun
    Ben
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
    Ben

  5. #5

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    It's possible to go all film and air core. ;) It's a major PITA though!

    http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77046
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche

  6. #6
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    The problem with air core inductors is their higher DCR values depending on the gauge of wire used to wind the inductor. They are either higher or lower. It's hard to exactly match them to the stock iron core inductors. Then you have a level balancing issue between the transducers.
    I thinlk this is one area that isn't really addressed as it should with crossover upgrades.
    I would play it safe and leave the stock inductors in place and upgrade the caps and resistors.

  7. #7

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    If you are going to upgrade the center wouldn't it make total sense to also do the mains and while you are at it balance out the entire system with upgraded crossover mods?

    Just purely my opinion but when I start feeling my system is lacking something , and if I feel my center channel is not cutting it , I get new speakers. Sometimes you like a speaker package due to being new or different , sometimes they are not for you.

    I question these moves as I owned a full 7.1 LSI system and never felt any of the channels lacked any more then others. I did favor the Lsi 15's over the 9's as my mains and moved the Lsi9's as surround back and they did a hell of a job there and I didn't feel they lacked in anyway in that position. The center channel I always felt blended perfectly with the Lsi15's and made a solid smooth transparent front sound stage. They all played nice together.
    I'm gonna suggest maybe looking into calibration , placement , room treatments , a better subwoofer , etc before I would try to fix the crossover.

    Again just my opinion on this as this seems to come up a lot in here.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    The problem with air core inductors is their higher DCR values depending on the gauge of wire used to wind the inductor. They are either higher or lower. It's hard to exactly match them to the stock iron core inductors. Then you have a level balancing issue between the transducers.
    I thinlk this is one area that isn't really addressed as it should with crossover upgrades.
    I would play it safe and leave the stock inductors in place and upgrade the caps and resistors.
    Kim, I had to buy parts from 2 different sources, but was able to source inductors within 5% in inductance and DCR. It is possible to match both when upgrading LSi15 crossover too.

    Quote Originally Posted by mantis View Post
    If you are going to upgrade the center wouldn't it make total sense to also do the mains and while you are at it balance out the entire system with upgraded crossover mods?
    His mains(LSi15) received the same treatment, all film caps and air core inductors. It was only because he was local, that I was able to perform all these upgrades. If I had to ship the speakers or crossovers, I would be concerned about shipping damage or the customer re-installing everything correctly.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaigrith View Post
    I feel like the weakest link in my setup right now is my center channel, even though it comes from the same series. Its being powered by an outlaw7700 so its getting plenty of power (300watts @ 4ohms). I'm trying to decide If I want to try running dual LSiC centers, or upgrading the xover in the one i have now. What do you guys think?
    The upgrade is a night/day difference, and is probably the best gain-vs-cost move you could make. If you're going to do it to the center, I'd look into doing it to your left/right channels as well. Save up the extra $ and do all three at once. I'm about to order parts for all of my LSis, even the FXs. Should be awesome when it's all done.
    - Computer Rig -
    YAΘIN MS-20L, polkaudio RT5

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    Pioneer SC-37, DIY Statements, Samsung 52" LCD

  10. #10

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    Try the center first.
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
    Ben

  11. #11

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    Me or him?
    - Computer Rig -
    YAΘIN MS-20L, polkaudio RT5

    - Main Rig -
    Pioneer SC-37, DIY Statements, Samsung 52" LCD

  12. #12

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    eiether
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
    Ben

  13. #13

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    You can click the link in my sig to see my crossover upgrade for the LSiC. It is not that expensive to do (the cheapest of the LSi Line since there is only 1 of them).

    Personally I was glad I did the 260uf cap, but I did not use sonicaps to do it.

    I did not do inductors so no opinion there. I have not upgraded the crossovers in my 15's yet, but they are the next audio upgrade I will be doing.

    Michael
    Mains.............Polk LSi15 (Cherry)
    Center............Polk LSiC (Crossover upgraded)
    Surrounds.......Polk LSi7 (Gloss Black - wood sides removed and crossovers upgraded)
    Subwoofers.....SVS 25-31 CS+ and PC+ (both 20hz tune)
    Pre\Pro...........NAD T163 (Modded with LM4562 opamps)
    Amplifier.........Cinepro 3k6 (6-channel, 500wpc@4ohms)

  14. #14

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    Have you tried turning up the volume on the center channel? Running the AVR's room correction software? I find it hard to imagine the LSiC not being up to snuff.

    Two Channel Setup:

    Speakers: Wharfedale Opus 2-3
    Integrated Amp: Jolida JD1502
    CD Player: Jolida JD200
    DAC for Computer Music: Peachtree Dac it x
    Turntable: Rega P5 - TT-PSU
    Cartridge: Clearaudio Aurum Beta Wood
    Phono Preamp: Musical Surroundings Phonomena II

    3.2 Home Theater Setup:

    Fronts: Polk LSiM 703s
    Center: Polk LSiM 703
    Subs: SVS PB 12 NSD X 2
    AVR: Yamaha Aventage RX-A2030
    Blu Ray: Sony BDP-S790

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Face View Post
    Kim, I had to buy parts from 2 different sources, but was able to source inductors within 5% in inductance and DCR. It is possible to match both when upgrading LSi15 crossover too.

    His mains(LSi15) received the same treatment, all film caps and air core inductors. It was only because he was local, that I was able to perform all these upgrades. If I had to ship the speakers or crossovers, I would be concerned about shipping damage or the customer re-installing everything correctly.
    I would really like to A-B a pair of Lsi15's before and after the crossover mod's.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by mantis View Post
    I would really like to A-B a pair of Lsi15's before and after the crossover mod's.
    Obviously you haven't heard modded LSI's.
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
    Ben

  17. #17

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    I'm going to order these parts soon and I am a little confused.
    You will need these SonicCaps
    2 18uf
    2 12uf
    2 18uf Dayton's
    2 1.5r 12 watt Mill's resistors
    2 1r 12watt Mill's resistors
    I think I only need 1 18uf sonicap and 1 18uf dayton, not 2 of each. Is this correct?
    Out of curiosity why do you feel that the lows do not need sonicaps but the highs do?
    HT:
    TV: Samsung UN55C8000 | Player: OPPO BDP-95 | Games: Xbox360 / PS3 | Party Music: Squeezebox Duet
    Mains: LSi15 | Center: LSiC | Surrounds: LSiFX | Sub: SVS 20-39pci
    Pre-Amp: Outlaw 990 | Power-Amp: Outlaw 7700
    Cabinet: Salamander Synergy Twin 30 | Speaker Wire: Lowes 12AG w/ monoprice banana plugs

  18. #18

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    this is what I ordered when I did my LSiC...

    PHP Code:
    parts    Location    Price    Manufacturer    Description
                    
    18uf    C1    
    $28.60    SoniCap    Gen1
    12uf    C2    
    $20.45    SoniCap    Gen1
    18uf    C3    
    $28.60    SoniCap    Gen1
    100uf   C4    
    $18.76    Aeon    
    100uf   C4    
    $18.76    Aeon    
    62uf    C4    
    $12.98    Aeon    
                    
    Solder          
    $6.00    Cardas    
    14
    ' Hookup Wire  $5.04    House Brand    18ga - Mil spec
                    
    1.5ohm    R1    $3.85    Mills    12 watt
    1.0ohm    R2    $3.85    Mills    12 watt
                    
        Sub Total  $146.89        
        Discount    $22.03        
        Shipping     $9.95        
        Total      $134.81 
    Mains.............Polk LSi15 (Cherry)
    Center............Polk LSiC (Crossover upgraded)
    Surrounds.......Polk LSi7 (Gloss Black - wood sides removed and crossovers upgraded)
    Subwoofers.....SVS 25-31 CS+ and PC+ (both 20hz tune)
    Pre\Pro...........NAD T163 (Modded with LM4562 opamps)
    Amplifier.........Cinepro 3k6 (6-channel, 500wpc@4ohms)

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by ben62670 View Post
    Obviously you haven't heard modded LSI's.
    Correct sir. If this made a nice improvement and made more sense then buying better speakers , I would be all in. I understand manufactures cut cost here and there to reach a certain price point.

    So my question is what is the improvement? Is the crossover points changed as well ?

    Zaigrith,
    What is making the center the weakest link? It is a perfect match to the lsi 15's. I have Installed and owned both many many times and never one felt as you do. With this crossover upgrade I assume others feel as you do.

    Now to all of you Lsi owners who felt this way , did the crossover upgrades make you love your speakers again? Was it enough to feel there is no more weakest link? Is this all the Lsi's needed to become a better speaker? I ask these questions as I never felt the center channel was a weak link but thought overall the lsi's are a great speaker for the money but where always missing some detail. I also felt if I had to pick a weakest link , it would be the woofer in the Lsi 15's. I remember someone using some car subs for a vast improvement in the 15's. Maybe that and the crossover upgrades would make me want to own them once again.
    I really would like to hear a pair upgraded both ways.
    Last edited by mantis; 03-12-2011 at 06:41 AM.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.

  20. #20

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    Mantis,
    I am one of those that did the sub mod on my 15's and also covered the port tube with Dynamat. It did not make an OMG,WOW difference, but it did make a noticeable difference. The bass did tighten up a bit and does sound more controlled, to my ears, at least! I do agree with the OP in that the LsiC is the weak link in the speaker chain. I experimented with a single Lsi9 and dual Lsi9's as a certer channel and have kept the dual Lsi9's to perform center channel duty.

  21. #21

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    We listened to McLoki's modded LSiC at one of our RAS meetings and compared it to my stock LSiC. There was a very nice improvement in sound dispersion and clarity. I haven't modded my LSiC yet, as my Magnepan 1.6's are the next thing I'm spending money for x-over mods on.
    DKG999
    -----------------------------------------
    HT System: LSi9, LSiCx2, LSiFX, LSi7, SVS 20-39 PC+, B&K 507.s2 AVR, B&K Ref 125.2, Tripplite LCR-2400, Cambridge 650BD, Signal Cable PC/SC, BJC IC, Samsung 55" LED

    Music System: Magnepan 1.6QR, SVS SB12+, ARC pre, Parasound HCA1500 vertically bi-amped, Jolida CDP, Pro-Ject RM5.1SE TT, Pro-Ject TubeBox SE phono pre, SBT, PS Audio DLIII DAC

  22. #22

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    I notice a significant clarity drop when I go from stereo to surround, and I feel like this must be from the center channel not performing as well as the mains. I also often have to keep my volume down and this exaggerates the problem further. I have a decent sub to assist the 15's woofer but it is turned off most of the time so my 15's do handle a lot of the bass. I haven't felt it to lack clarity, but they don't seem powerful enough to let me feel the sound like the woofer does.
    HT:
    TV: Samsung UN55C8000 | Player: OPPO BDP-95 | Games: Xbox360 / PS3 | Party Music: Squeezebox Duet
    Mains: LSi15 | Center: LSiC | Surrounds: LSiFX | Sub: SVS 20-39pci
    Pre-Amp: Outlaw 990 | Power-Amp: Outlaw 7700
    Cabinet: Salamander Synergy Twin 30 | Speaker Wire: Lowes 12AG w/ monoprice banana plugs

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