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Thread: Holy Grail

  1. #91

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    I should have used this image in post #88 as it is the oldest Mullard logo designating the earliest production which are thought to be just slightly better than the newer logo tubes.

    The auction you found is good, and those tubes are built in the same Mithcam UK factory as the mil spec CV4024/M8162. I don't know if the mil spec is manufactured differently, or just selected for better traits after production, but both are great tubes and the gold pins are certainly a benefit.

    The only point is that (this month) I purchased another closely matched quad of CV4024/M8162's for $28 dollars each delivered. The Mullards in the auction you found are not as tightly selected, and $38 each delivered (and he states he has 20 pairs).
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    Last edited by inspiredsports; 04-13-2011 at 01:20 PM.
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    TT CJ Sonographe SG3 Oak/Sumiko LMT/Grado Wood Plat/Sumiko PIB2/The Clamp
    Musical Fidelity A1 CDPro
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    Herbies Ti-9/Vibrapods/MIT Shtgn AC1 IEC's/MIT Shotgun 2 IC's/MIT Shtgn 2 Speaker
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  2. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by audio_alan View Post
    . . . one thing that's for sure, the tube world is a little confusing with so many variants, manufacturers, dates, military grade vs. not, etc., but I'm enjoying the challenge so far! . . .
    A good resource to clear things up (or confuse you more ): Brent Jessee . . .

    http://www.audiotubes.com - homepage

    http://www.audiotubes.com/12at7.htm - 12AT7 in specific
    VTL ST50 w/mods/RCA6L6GC/TlfnknECC801S
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    Musical Fidelity A1 CDPro
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    MF x-DAC V8, HAInfo NG27
    Herbies Ti-9/Vibrapods/MIT Shtgn AC1 IEC's/MIT Shotgun 2 IC's/MIT Shtgn 2 Speaker
    PSAudio Cryo PwrPrt Prem/ExctPwrEP15A
    Wlnt SDA 2B TL/Oak SDA SRS II TL-Sonicaps/Mills/Cardas/Cust SDA ICs/Mortite/Dynamat Extreme/TFLF Rings/FSB-2 Spikes
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  3. #93

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    Those Mullard ECC801S are within specs. Not sure how these particular ones sound, but the price isn't too bad and Mullard makes good tubes. If I had the scratch I'd be tempted to try them.

    Alan,the thing is with tube rolling and anything audio for that matter, it's all subjective. What may sound great to me, might not for someone else. Ya gotta pay to play in this game and it's how we learn.

    Good luck,

    Mike

  4. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by inspiredsports View Post

    ...snip, snip....

    The only point is that (this month) I purchased another closely matched quad of CV4024/M8162's for $28 dollars each delivered. The Mullards in the auction you found are not as tightly selected, and $38 each delivered (and he states he has 20 pairs).
    It sounds like I can do better then, price-wise. I should probably just be patient since I'm still amazed at the increased sound quality I'm getting with the Dared SL-2000a in my setup (not to mention I still have more tubes on the way from other auctions, so there is no rush to buy more right now).

    Buying a pair of SDA-SRS's really took my music listening to another level, and then adding tubes (with the SL-2000a) unleashed even more of their potential. Now the bass sounds incredible, and the imaging and clarity seem to have increased by another notch or two as well. I can only imagine what they're going to sound like when I find the "perfect" tubes. I'd probably laugh if I had to hear my system from a year ago - night and day difference!

    Keiko - Thanks for mentioning your list of favorite tubes as well! It should help to have a few different types to look for, since all of them aren't always available.

    One more thing, this might be a stupid question (and perhaps already discussed), but..... Does the left channel go through the left 12AT7, and the right channel go through the right 12AT7 (or vica versa)? If so, that would probably mean that mixing and matching different tubes in the SL-2000a wouldn't be advised, right? Or, do both L/R signals travel through both tubes and the rectifier, meaning that it would be possible to find a possible synergy with different tubes? (i.e. A mullard, a raytheon, and a whatever rectifier)

  5. #95

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    Actually, I think that's a good technical question, but I'm not sure if the L/R signals pass thru the L/R tubes. Never really thought about it. I would not advise mixing different tube types tho. I'm not a technical guru, but there may be some voltage issues mixing different tube types. I wouldn't do it.

  6. #96

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    One other thing to note is that H9's original post is about (Telefunken) 5965's, a 12AT7/ECC81 variant with a mu factor (gain) of 47. The gain of a standard 12AT7/ECC81's is 60 mu.

    I'm guessing the Dared SL2000A is designed to use 12AT7/ECC81's ?? Stepping down from 60 to 47 would always be OK, but stepping from 47 UP to 60 would cause me to contact Dared just to be sure.

    The other thing to note is that 5965's are almost always long plate tubes, and may in some cases require a tube damper.
    Last edited by inspiredsports; 04-13-2011 at 02:09 PM.
    VTL ST50 w/mods/RCA6L6GC/TlfnknECC801S
    CJPV-5 w/mods
    TT CJ Sonographe SG3 Oak/Sumiko LMT/Grado Wood Plat/Sumiko PIB2/The Clamp
    Musical Fidelity A1 CDPro
    Tuners w/mods Kenwood KT5020/Fisher KM60
    MF x-DAC V8, HAInfo NG27
    Herbies Ti-9/Vibrapods/MIT Shtgn AC1 IEC's/MIT Shotgun 2 IC's/MIT Shtgn 2 Speaker
    PSAudio Cryo PwrPrt Prem/ExctPwrEP15A
    Wlnt SDA 2B TL/Oak SDA SRS II TL-Sonicaps/Mills/Cardas/Cust SDA ICs/Mortite/Dynamat Extreme/TFLF Rings/FSB-2 Spikes
    NAD SS rigs w/mods
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  7. #97

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    Good question on the voltages, etc. Minimal literature came with the SL-2000a, so I'm shooting in the dark a little on this stuff. I have seen other people mention various models of tubes as replacements, so it appears that slight variations are acceptable.... but maybe at a minimum those variations in tube parameters should match between sockets? H9 - Do you have any insights on this subject?

    Well, I couldn't help myself. I had to pick up this rectifier too. It's untested, so I hope it works! It looks to be in great shape though...

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...#ht_500wt_1156

  8. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by audio_alan View Post
    Good question on the voltages, etc. Minimal literature came with the SL-2000a, so I'm shooting in the dark a little on this stuff. I have seen other people mention various models of tubes as replacements, so it appears that slight variations are acceptable.... but maybe at a minimum those variations in tube parameters should match between sockets? H9 - Do you have any insights on this subject?

    Well, I couldn't help myself. I had to pick up this rectifier too. It's untested, so I hope it works! It looks to be in great shape though...

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...#ht_500wt_1156
    I just found specs online. 12AT7's are shipped from the factory.

    Someone would need to look at a schematic to see how power flows to give a technical answer about different variants in the 12AT7 sockets. Guitarists do this with their MONO guitar amps all the time. Stereo probably makes a difference as I'm guessing it's 1 discrete 12AT7 per channel.
    Last edited by inspiredsports; 04-13-2011 at 02:34 PM.
    VTL ST50 w/mods/RCA6L6GC/TlfnknECC801S
    CJPV-5 w/mods
    TT CJ Sonographe SG3 Oak/Sumiko LMT/Grado Wood Plat/Sumiko PIB2/The Clamp
    Musical Fidelity A1 CDPro
    Tuners w/mods Kenwood KT5020/Fisher KM60
    MF x-DAC V8, HAInfo NG27
    Herbies Ti-9/Vibrapods/MIT Shtgn AC1 IEC's/MIT Shotgun 2 IC's/MIT Shtgn 2 Speaker
    PSAudio Cryo PwrPrt Prem/ExctPwrEP15A
    Wlnt SDA 2B TL/Oak SDA SRS II TL-Sonicaps/Mills/Cardas/Cust SDA ICs/Mortite/Dynamat Extreme/TFLF Rings/FSB-2 Spikes
    NAD SS rigs w/mods
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  9. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by audio_alan View Post
    I almost won some 5 star's a couple days ago, but didn't bid high enough. I guess I need to be more agressive on some of these auctions...



    Yeah, I figured the GE's probably wouldn't be top of the line, but also assumed they would be money well spent ($15 after shipping) just to replace the stock tubes and start me into rolling.... while I look for some of the more highly sought after tubes. Not to mention, getting the perfect tube right away might not be as fun as going through a few sets to find "it".

    I have been reading your other posts and will keep an eye out for some reasonably priced (yeah, right!) Tele's or Valvo's. I have an England made Brimar 5Z4G Rectifier on the way, so hopefully that makes some noticable improvements as well. Not sure of the vintage of the Brimar, but it looks old...

    What do you think about a pair of MULLARD ECC81 12AT7's?

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

    You've got the right idea as far tube rolling........make it fun, take your time.

    I am not a big fan of Mullard signal tubes in my particular system. I still think they sound very good, just not 100% my "cup of tea".

    Valvo Hamburg (the older the better) especiallly the 6201's

    Telefunken ECC 81 are excellent, and despite what Greg says good ones can be bought cheaper than say an ECC83. I don't think I paid more than $45/pr shipped for very strong ones.

    Telefunken ECC801S.......another fave, but very pricey. I bought mine so cheap it's embarassing, but it goes to show with perserverance you can find good deals. Mostly the same as the ECC81 they just give a little more everywhere. SOme complain they can sound a little thin on the bass.....never noticed that in my system. Ultra low noise.

    GE 5 Star 6201 3 mica black plate (late 50's) are excellent, but bass can be a little uncontrolled compared to a TFK or Valvo. Soundstage is impressive. One might say a little exaggerated especially on SDA's. Still worth seeking out. I might just sell the back-up pair I have.

    Raytheon 6414 3 mica black plate w/horse shoe getter (late 50's). These tubes are awesome, great midrange, great soundstage. They are long plate by design and some can be microphonic.

    RFT ECC81 - made in Germany a very solid tube that does nothing wrong, last forever and you can find them very inexpensively.

    Telefunken 5965 - my current favorite, very rare and hard to find especially in the US.

    Those are a few off the top of my head.

    You will LOVE the Brimar rectifier.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

  10. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by inspiredsports View Post
    One other thing to note is that H9's original post is about (Telefunken) 5965's, a 12AT7/ECC81 variant with a mu factor (gain) of 47. The gain of a standard 12AT7/ECC81's is 60 mu.

    I'm guessing the Dared SL2000A is designed to use 12AT7/ECC81's ?? Stepping down from 60 to 47 would always be OK, but stepping from 47 UP to 60 would cause me to contact Dared just to be sure.

    The other thing to note is that 5965's are almost always long plate tubes, and may in some cases require a tube damper.
    The TFK 5965's are long plate tubes, no short plate was ever made to my knowledge.

    I've used just about every variant of 12AT7 (ECC81) without any issues. Refer here

    http://www.audiotubes.com/12at7.htm

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

  11. #101

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    I also 2nd the suggestion of RCA blackplates, but they can get pricey even in 12AT7 variety.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

  12. #102

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    Later Mullards were not the same quality as earlier Mullards so watch out what you pay. There was a flood of late 70's early 80's Mullard logo tubes in circulation. Many cases they weren't even made by Mullard.

    Tube codes and the ability to decipher them are very important. It's helps identify what you are actually getting. Philips distributed tubes under all kinds of brands and unless you get the codes you could be buying a Valvo, Siemens, Amperex all exactly the same tube since it came from the same plant at the same time. That's why I always refer to Valvo Hamburg tubes. Those were the only tubes Valvo actually made, the rest were re-labeled Philips tubes. Not that it's bad, just know what you are buying.

    Many later Telefunkens were just re-labeled tubes made in East Germany (RFT) or even Philips tubes. TFK codes are hard to decipher. They don't sound like the classic Tele. Probably good tubes, but again, know what you are buying.

    Here's an example:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/Pair-New-Telefun...item564386435f

    Made by Siemens so still very good tubes (depends on the codes). If the seller hadn't been forthcoming and you didn't know waht to look for you'd buy these thinking they were TFK's and they aren't

    H9
    Last edited by heiney9; 04-13-2011 at 03:11 PM.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

  13. #103

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    Thanks for compiling your favorites into a list as well, H9! I'll add those to my list of ones to watch for. And yeah, I've read about and noticed the name games too. I think the older the tube, the more likely it's really a Mullard, or really a Valvo, etc.

    I'm hoping that 30's/40's Brimar rectifier that I just won a few minutes ago works. Then I can say my stereo dates back to WWII. I think the other Brimar I won from ebay is a newer vintage, so it will be interesting to compare/contrast the two.

  14. #104

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    There were no 30's 5Z4's, they started using them in WWII. Do you have a link? Who told you 30's-40's? Those old ones are very rare. I have 3 that date to WWII and they all have writing on the base and nothing on the glass. They also have square foil getters, later has "D" style getter.

    It will still sound great, most of those I've seen on Ebay are very late 50's but mostly mid 60's. If there is writing on the glass then it's definitely 60's.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

  15. #105

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    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...K%3AMEWAX%3AIT

    And look at what he scored it for. I'm pissed.



  16. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keiko View Post
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...K%3AMEWAX%3AIT

    And look at what he scored it for. I'm pissed.


    Yep, that was me. I hope I didn't step on anyone's toes!

  17. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by audio_alan View Post
    Yep, that was me. I hope I didn't step on anyone's toes!
    Not mine.

    That's a nice tube. I love my Brimar although it's later a production, it's got a permanent home in my Dared.

  18. #108

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    I'd have to see the style getter, probably square w/o foil. It's an older one probably mid 50's based on the color of the writing and base. Definitely not 30's or 40's, but still a great rectifier and a great price............................................. .......












    assuming it works:tongue:

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

  19. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post

    .................................................. ..

    assuming it works:tongue:

    H9
    Yep, that's the million dollar question (well, $10.56 + shipping).....

    Oh well, even if it's not as old as advertised, it still looks like a pretty cool rectifier!

  20. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by audio_alan View Post
    Yep, that's the million dollar question (well, $10.56 + shipping).....

    Oh well, even if it's not as old as advertised, it still looks like a pretty cool rectifier!
    I agree.....you did good. There are so few truly early tubes around. I have a pair of Tung Sol's from 1946 and the Brimar rectifier's from 1949 or 1950 as my oldest tubes. I have lots of mid to late 50's tubes. For me the earlier they are, the better they seem to sound.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

  21. #111

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    I'd bet it's working. Read somewhere these old GZ30's are pretty rugged and can last forever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keiko View Post
    I'd bet it's working. Read somewhere these old GZ30's are pretty rugged and can last forever.
    I'll let you guys know in a couple weeks...

    Hopefully I receive that other Brimar before then so I have a few days or so to play with it before receiving this one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by inspiredsports View Post
    A good resource to clear things up (or confuse you more ): Brent Jessee . . .

    http://www.audiotubes.com - homepage

    http://www.audiotubes.com/12at7.htm - 12AT7 in specific
    Great, thanks for the links! That should be helpful...

  24. #114

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    No tubes, but just got my groovey Star Trek plate today.

    Rare and need 2 more to complete this set.

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...K%3AMEWNX%3AIT

    Carry on....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keiko View Post
    No tubes, but just got my groovey Star Trek plate today.

    Rare and need 2 more to complete this set.

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...K%3AMEWNX%3AIT

    Carry on....
    Atleast when you are homeless you will be the envy of your peeps with those nifty Star Trek plates.............lol :tongue:
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

  26. #116

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    I know, I'm a geek.

  27. #117

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    I wouldn't say that.........I love Star Trek as well, just too many other collections.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    I wouldn't say that.........I love Star Trek as well, just too many other collections.

    H9
    Trust me, bro. I'm a geek and I'm proud of it. Wish I had as many tubes as I do these plates. Gotta killer stein collection of Star Trek / Star Wars too. Been collecting for long time.

    Kinda nice and if worse comes to worse, I know I can flip these things for more than I paid for 'em. Hopefully things won't come to that. A lot are quite rare and I almost stole this last find. I've seen this complete set sell for 600.00 bucks with COAs.

  29. #119

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    Got some Sylvania 5965 Gold Brand/Pins on the way. Probably not as good as your Teles Brock, but if there anything like my GB 6201s, I'll be happy. Scored 'em for only 10.00 each.

  30. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keiko View Post
    Got some Sylvania 5965 Gold Brand/Pins on the way. Probably not as good as your Teles Brock, but if there anything like my GB 6201s, I'll be happy. Scored 'em for only 10.00 each.
    I just installed my recently purchased Sylvania 5965 Gold Pins yesterday. They're still settling in, but they seem to be at least as good as the GE tubes I removed. One thing I noticed is they don't glow nearly as bright as the GE's (not that looks really matter, but just throught I'd mention it).

    I'm really looking forward to getting a better rectifier in there. That might be holding back the 12AT7's from showing their differences and truely shining (or not).

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