All's Well That Ends Well

[arun1963]

Ok, so everything is finally hooked up in the civic and I finally have music on my daily drive. Here is what I got.

HU : P-80rsII I believe this is the same as the p-800, sold State side. Black face plate, Sirius / HD radio ready and copper chassis.

RCA's : Stinger SPI6317

4 Ch amp : Genesis Profile Ultra. 4x100 watts @ 4 ohm. Thats the birth sheet, but I think it punches way above its weight. At least thats the way its sounds.

Mono Amp : Genesis Dual Mono 1x400 watts @ 4 ohms. Doubling of power over the PA 400.1

Sub : Same ole MM 12" in a 1.1 cu ft sealed box.

Mid Bass : The SR-6500. Nothing better around.

Tweets : Scan Speak Illuminators, that I linked in the other thread.

The Honda is a great car for speaker placement. The mids are door mounted, low down and way forward. The measured PLD on the Ford was 14" while on the Honda it's 9". I can't explain how much better that is for coherence. A flat dash allows me to mount the tweets way in the corners and the pods allow me to angle the tweets just right. Both tweets are smack on axis. The Ford dash had crazy angles which made tweet mounting a PITA. I think Mac commented somewhere how the Honda's are great for sq installs. Trust me he knows what he's talking about.

The Civics here come with stock 5x7 in the rear parcel shelf. Got rid of those and that opened up a path for the sub frequencies from the boot. Doubling of power and more sound from the sub flowing into the cabin.......

Equipment sold:

1 x pa 500.4
1 x pa 400.1
1 set of MMC 690
1 set of MMC 6500
1 pair of SR 6500 RR tweets

I sold all that and still paid a few pennies for the upgrade.

So how does all this sound?

[Vital]

Nice!

1. Can we see some pics??
2. Why did you sell all that good stuff???? Don't get it.....

[arun1963]

2 out of 10 cd's that I own are reference grade. I set up the new system at the exact settings as my Ford and then set them for what they measured in the Honda and where it sounded the best. Here they are:

Sub LPF 40hz @ 36db/oct, Mid HPF 40 hz @ 24 db/oct, Mid HPF 4khz @ 24db/oct, Tweet HPF 2 khz @ 24db/oct. I had to re adjust the TA for lesser PLD and tweak the eq a bit. Here is how the eq is set for L/R, remember I sit on the right.....:

20hz - 0/0
31.5hz - 2 / -2
50hz - -2 / -2
80hz - -4/-2
125hz - -5/-2
200hz - -3/-3
315hz - -5 / -2
500hz - 0/0
800hz - -5/-3
1.25khz - -5/-3
2.00 khz- -4/-3
3.15khz - -5/-2
5Khz - -2/-3
8khz - -3/-5
12.5khz - -2/-1
20khz - 0/0

Time alignment set as follows :

Sub : Measured distance = 82" TA distance 85"
Far Mid : Measured distance = 48", TA distance = 69"
Near Mid : Measured distance = 42", TA distance = 61"
Far tweet : Measured distance = 50" TA distance = 71"
Near tweet : measured distance = 45", TA distance = 63"

[arun1963]

Nice!

1. Can we see some pics??
2. Why did you sell all that good stuff???? Don't get it.....

the digital camera is bust, else this post would have pic's. Why did I sell good stuff? Cause i have to minimize the impact of purchases.

[arun1963]

Here is the subjective side of things.

1. Albums used - Roger Waters / Amused to Death, Eagles / Hell Freezes Over, Sarah Mclachlan / The Freedom Sessions, K.D. Lang / Hymns of the 49th Parallel.

While you'll may not agree with the content, the fact is that these albums represent the epitome of good recordings for the cd's that i own.

1. Roger Waters Track 12 - Three Wishes. This is the most emotionally wrenching song that I've ever heard. It is a brilliantly recorded album and the song is about a Jewish mother with two kids living in Nazi Germany during WW 2. The mom does not the family to be arrested by the Nazi's. so she decides the best solution is mass suicide. So she decides to gas the family. Except she is broke and can only buy a 'small' gas bottle. Nutshell the kids die and she survives. The song is from her perspective 30 years down the line. She never got over the guilt, I don't think any parent would. Hear this song, hear the lyrics and if you don't cry ........

2. Eagles - Hell Freezes Over - Track 4 Learn To Be Still This is a reference album. But most folks talk about Hotel California.....however track 4 is a gem. This is a track that will test the accuracy of your mid bass. Hear it know why.

3. Sarah McLachlan - Freedom Sessions : Track 6 and 8. I am a huge Sarah fan and this is one of her best recorded albums. Hear these two songs and you will know what I'm talking about.

The new setup has great coherence. In the Ford with the SR tweets on the dash it sounded like I had great mid bass drivers in the doors with great tweets on the dash. The mid range is what I was always trying to tune in.

With the current set up, I have great mid bass in the doors and a phenomenal midrange on the dash. A mid range that has excellent high end extension..... sorry this is dumbed down version. The highs are not as 'bright' but the whole sound is a lot more coherent. There is a TON more of sub and mid bass. Thanks in part to more power on all mid drivers and the fact that removing the rears allows for a lot more of the sub to flow in.

Imaging is so much sharper on the new set up. The Scans dig lower with greater composure than the RR's. That is a fact. The Genesis amps provide more power all round. Sonic Nirvana.

This is a fairly noobish effort at explaining an upgrade. I will wait for Mac to talk about running the Scans with the SR's......

Open to questions.

[MacLeod]

My first question is how the hell. Did you get all this done so fast? I still haven't finished mine yet!

Second is I'm not crazy about cutting the mids at 4K while running the tweets all the way down to 2K. I'd suggest experimenting around with cutting the mid at 2K and also try them both at 3.2k. That's how I ran them when I used those borrowed Scan made Genesis tweets at 09 finals in my Accord and it worked really well.

[exalted512]

Equipment looks good. Get some pictures up?

Why are your measurements in inches? They actually have measuring tapes in inches in India? Haha.

I agree with what Mac said, but maybe I missed it, but how far apart are your mids and tweeters apart?

I have no tuning experience with those tweeters, but if theyre going down to 2k and your mids/tweets are close together, I'd take the mids down to 3.2k, maybe 2k like Mac was saying, but I like a little more overlap then that unless you have less than 5" between drivers...but thats personal opinion and I have no doubt that psychoacoustics plays a part of that opinion for me.

40Hz also seems a little low for those mids. Mine always seemed to break up at louder levels, so I took mine up to like 50...or if I was really planning on playing it loud, 63Hz (but thats getting away from sq).

I might try it at 40 if I ever was in a competition, but I'd still have the sub at 50Hz either way. With probably a 12dB/octave slope. If I was at 40 Hz, I'd be at a 6dB/octave slope....no way I'd have it at 36!

For daily listening, I'd have the sub at a minimum of 63Hz and the mids at 50Hz, slope being between 6-24, depending on what I liked. I'd start out with 12 on both, then work from there.

While driving, you lose some of your midbass due to road noise, etc -- so I'd definitely compensate that with running the sub higher, but thats me.
-Cody

[arun1963]

My first question is how the hell. Did you get all this done so fast? I still haven't finished mine yet!

There is no way I could diy / install anything. I am the ultimate butter fingered idiot when it comes to this side. The whole of last Sunday and a couple of hours after work yesterday at the installer, is what did the trick.

Second is I'm not crazy about cutting the mids at 4K while running the tweets all the way down to 2K. I'd suggest experimenting around with cutting the mid at 2K and also try them both at 3.2k. That's how I ran them when I used those borrowed Scan made Genesis tweets at 09 finals in my Accord and it worked really well.

I agree with what Mac said, but maybe I missed it, but how far apart are your mids and tweeters apart?

I have no tuning experience with those tweeters, but if theyre going down to 2k and your mids/tweets are close together, I'd take the mids down to 3.2k, maybe 2k like Mac was saying, but I like a little more overlap then that unless you have less than 5" between drivers...but thats personal opinion and I have no doubt that psychoacoustics plays a part of that opinion for me.

It's interesting that both of you'll touch upon the overlap issue. I tried a 2khz split as also the tweet at 2khz mid at 3.15khz. It just seems that the extra overlap of the mid at 4khz seems to make the mid range frequencies warmer and fuller (top end of male / female vocals and harmonics of various instruments). It also gives the perception of a higher stage and helps with imaging.

Cody makes a good point about psycho acoustics. With the overlap, I'm probably focusing too much on actual benefits / perceived benefits in some area while totally ignoring / not hearing a loss in some other area. It wouldn't be the first time this has happened . So, what is the down side of an octave worth of overlap?

Why are your measurements in inches? They actually have measuring tapes in inches in India? Haha.

You stumped me on that one :tongue:. The Pio will let me set TA in inches or cm. The measuring tape has inches on one side and cm on the other. For everything else my brain works on the Metric system. Yet from day 1 I have always set the TA in inches.....go figure.

40Hz also seems a little low for those mids. Mine always seemed to break up at louder levels, so I took mine up to like 50...or if I was really planning on playing it loud, 63Hz (but thats getting away from sq).

I might try it at 40 if I ever was in a competition, but I'd still have the sub at 50Hz either way. With probably a 12dB/octave slope. If I was at 40 Hz, I'd be at a 6dB/octave slope....no way I'd have it at 36!

For daily listening, I'd have the sub at a minimum of 63Hz and the mids at 50Hz, slope being between 6-24, depending on what I liked. I'd start out with 12 on both, then work from there.

While driving, you lose some of your midbass due to road noise, etc -- so I'd definitely compensate that with running the sub higher, but thats me.
-Cody

Two things here. First, the settings are for critical listening. I.E. car parked. Second, in the Ford I had the sub and mids cut at 50hz. Yes I lose a fair bit of the lower end while driving around, but that's something I accept. I would not run my sub on shallow slopes as 60-125hz would then bleed through the sub and these frequencies would be louder from a 12" cone than a 6.5" cone. Big time localisation issues and it would make my mid bass muddy.

On a side note, gave the Civic for servicing today and when I went to pick it up this evening, the workshop manager called me in and said the Honda 3 yrs unlimited mileage warranty, would be null and void if i didn't get rid of the audio gear......I have till next Saturday to decide and inform Honda. It's there on the fine print of the warranty.

Feels like someone up there has a twisted sense of humour . Unless I can think of a way out, I may have to pull everything and reinstall it in the Ford.

[MacLeod]

Id call Honda about that. Putting an aftermarket radio in along with some amps in the trunk shouldnt void any kind of warranty. Thats just idiotic!

[arun1963]

Honda is going by the fuses on the amps. The stock alternator on the Civic is 75 Amps and the fuses on the two Genesis amps add up to 85 Amps. Hence the logic is that a battery being drained of 85 amps would require the alternator to work over time to recharge it, hence affecting the other electricals.

Yes they allow replacement of stock audio, as long as the fuses on the amps don't total more than 40 amps. I going to meet the GM CS on Tuesday, but I'm not holding out much hope. Push comes to shove and I will back off and change the install back to the Ford. I'm not going to risk the Civic's warranty.

Pity though cause the Civic is made for sq installs. Just a great car to reproduce sound.

[MacLeod]

That's a load. I had a 160 amp inline fuse on my Accord and took it into Honda every 6 weeks for oil changes for 3 years and nobody ever said a word. Besides, those are max fuse ratings and youre never gonna draw all that and even if you did it would only be for a second.

[exalted512]

so...when you go to the dealership, remove the radio and put smaller fuses in the amps....
-Cody