Free Shipping on All Orders 1-866-764-1801

Vist our Online Store
+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 29 of 29
  1. #1

    Member Sales Rating: (26)

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    The tube lair in Charlotte, NC
    Posts
    11,323

    Default What makes a Class A amp....a Class A amp?

    Just as the title says. It was recently a typo error that led me to believe [I'm guessing] that a sand amp I bought was a Class A amp. That said, now I'm curious....

    What is the difference between a Class A amplifier and a Class A/B?

    I know there is Google and other sites out there that will teach me. Thing is, I trust this site. There are also apparently different types of Class A.

    What is pure Class A?




    What say you?
    In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

    The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction.

  2. #2

    Member Sales Rating: (58)

    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    6 Underground
    Posts
    25,306

    Default

    High Power Audio Amplifier Construction Manual
    ISBN 0-07-134119-6

    Audio Power Amplifier Design Handbook
    ISBN 0-7506-5636-0

    A must have for the audio bookshelf.

  3. #3

    Member Sales Rating: (0)

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Silicon Valley
    Posts
    6,133

    Default

    H9 beat this issue to death a month or two ago.

  4. #4

    Member Sales Rating: (0)

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    533

    Default

    found this

    Power amplifier classes
    [edit] Angle of flow or conduction angle

    Power amplifier circuits (output stages) are classified as A, B, AB and C for analog designs, and class D and E for switching designs based upon the conduction angle or angle of flow, Θ, of the input signal through the (or each) output amplifying device, that is, the portion of the input signal cycle during which the amplifying device conducts. The image of the conduction angle is derived from amplifying a sinusoidal signal. (If the device is always on, Θ = 360?.) The angle of flow is closely related to the amplifier power efficiency. The various classes are introduced below, followed by more detailed discussion under individual headings later on.

    Class A
    100% of the input signal is used (conduction angle Θ = 360? or 2π); i.e., the active element remains conducting[6] (works in its "linear" range) all of the time. Where efficiency is not a consideration, most small signal linear amplifiers are designed as class A. Class A amplifiers are typically more linear and less complex than other types, but are very inefficient. This type of amplifier is most commonly used in small-signal stages or for low-power applications (such as driving headphones). Subclass A2 is sometimes used to refer to vacuum tube class A stages where the grid is allowed to be driven slightly positive on signal peaks, resulting in slightly more power than normal class A (A1; where the grid is always negative[7]), but incurring more distortion.

    Class B

    50% of the input signal is used (Θ = 180? or π; i.e., the active element works in its linear range half of the time and is more or less turned off for the other half). In most class B, there are two output devices (or sets of output devices), each of which conducts alternately (push?pull) for exactly 180? (or half cycle) of the input signal; selective RF amplifiers can also be implemented using a single active element.

    These amplifiers are subject to crossover distortion if the transition from one active element to the other is not perfect, as when two complementary transistors (i.e., one PNP, one NPN) are connected as two emitter followers with their base and emitter terminals in common, requiring the base voltage to slew across the region where both devices are turned off.[8]

    Class AB
    Here the two active elements conduct more than half of the time as a means to reduce the cross-over distortions of class B amplifiers. In the example of the complementary emitter followers a bias network allows for more or less quiescent current thus providing an operating point somewhere between class A and class B. Sometimes a figure is added (e.g., AB1 or AB2) for vacuum tube stages where the grid voltage is always negative with respect to the cathode (class AB1) or may be slightly positive (hence drawing grid current, adding more distortion, but giving slightly higher output power) on signal peaks (class AB2); another interpretation being higher figures implying a higher quiescent current and therefore more of the properties of class A.[citation needed]

    Class C
    Less than 50% of the input signal is used (conduction angle Θ < 180?). The advantage is potentially high efficiency, but a disadvantage is high distortion.

    Class D

    Main article: Switching amplifier

    These use switching to achieve a very high power efficiency (more than 90% in modern designs). By allowing each output device to be either fully on or off, losses are minimized. The analog output is created by pulse-width modulation; i.e., the active element is switched on for shorter or longer intervals instead of modifying its resistance. There are more complicated switching schemes like sigma-delta modulation, to improve some performance aspects like lower distortions or better efficiency.



    The classes can be most easily understood using the diagrams in each section below. For the sake of illustration, a bipolar junction transistor is shown as the amplifying device, but in practice this could be a MOSFET or vacuum tube device. In an analog amplifier (the most common kind), the signal is applied to the input terminal of the device (base, gate or grid), and this causes a proportional output drive current to flow out of the output terminal. The output drive current comes from the power supply.
    [edit] Class A
    Class A amplifier

    Amplifying devices operating in class A conduct over the whole of the input cycle such that the output signal is an exact scaled-up replica of the input with no clipping. A class A amplifier is distinguished by the output stage being biased into class A (see definition above).
    [edit] Advantages of class A amplifiers

    Class A designs are simpler than other classes; for example class AB and B designs require two devices (push-pull output) to handle both halves of the waveform; class A can use a single device single-ended.
    The amplifying element is biased so the device is always conducting to some extent, normally implying the quiescent (small-signal) collector current (for transistors; drain current for FETs or anode/plate current for vacuum tubes) is close to the most linear portion of its transconductance curve.
    Because the device is never shut off completely there is no "turn on" time, little problem with charge storage, and generally better high frequency performance and feedback loop stability (and usually fewer high-order harmonics).
    The point at which the device comes closest to being cut off is not close to zero signal, so the problem of crossover distortion associated with class AB and B designs is avoided.

    [edit] Disadvantage of class A amplifiers

    They are very inefficient; a theoretical maximum of 50% is obtainable with inductive output coupling and only 25% with capacitive coupling, unless square law output stages are used. In a power amplifier this not only wastes power and limits battery operation, it may place restrictions on the output devices that can be used (for example: ruling out some audio triodes if modern low-efficiency loudspeakers are to be used), and will increase costs. Inefficiency comes not just from the fact that the device is always conducting to some extent (that happens even with class AB, yet its efficiency can be close to that of class B); it is that the standing current is roughly half the maximum output current (although this can be less with square law output stage), together with the problem that a large part of the power supply voltage is developed across the output device at low signal levels (as with classes AB and B, but unlike output stages such as class D). If high output powers are needed from a class A circuit, the power waste (and the accompanying heat) will become significant. For every watt delivered to the load, the amplifier itself will, at best, dissipate another watt. For large powers this means very large and expensive power supplies and heat sinking.

    Class A designs have largely been superseded by the more efficient designs for power amplifiers, though they remain popular with some hobbyists, mostly for their simplicity. Also, many audiophiles believe that class A gives the best sound quality (for their absence of crossover distortion and reduced odd-harmonic and high-order harmonic distortion) which provides a small market for expensive high fidelity class A amps.
    [edit] Single-ended and triode class A amplifiers

    Some aficionados who prefer class A amplifiers also prefer the use of thermionic valve (or "tube") designs instead of transistors, especially in Single-ended triode output configurations for several claimed reasons:

    Single-ended output stages (be they tube or transistor) have an asymmetrical transfer function, meaning that even order harmonics in the created distortion tend not to be canceled (as they are in push-pull output stages); by using tubes OR FETs most of the distortion is from the square law transfer characteristic and so second-order, which some consider to be "warmer" and more pleasant.[9][10]
    For those who prefer low distortion figures, the use of tubes with class A (generating little odd-harmonic distortion, as mentioned above) together with symmetrical circuits (such as push-pull output stages, or balanced low-level stages) results in the cancellation of most of the even distortion harmonics, hence the removal of most of the distortion.
    Though good amplifier design can reduce harmonic distortion patterns to almost nothing, distortion is essential to the sound of electric guitar amplifiers, for example, and is held by recording engineers to offer more flattering microphones and to enhance "clinical-sounding" digital technology.
    Historically, valve amplifiers often used a class A power amplifier simply because valves are large and expensive; many class A designs use only a single device.

    Transistors are much cheaper, and so more elaborate designs that give greater efficiency but use more parts are still cost-effective. A classic application for a pair of class A devices is the long-tailed pair, which is exceptionally linear, and forms the basis of many more complex circuits, including many audio amplifiers and almost all op-amps. Class A amplifiers are often used in output stages of high quality op-amps (although the accuracy of the bias in low cost op-amps such as the 741 may result in class A or class AB or class B, varying from device to device or with temperature). They are sometimes used as medium-power, low-efficiency, and high-cost audio amplifiers. The power consumption is unrelated to the output power. At idle (no input), the power consumption is essentially the same as at high output volume. The result is low efficiency and high heat dissipation.
    [edit] Class B and AB
    polk 10bs--- prodigy hd2 modded Burson Audio opamps
    dcm time windows ---- parasound pre amp
    TDQ-1600 Broadcast Reference Tuner -- yamaha cd s700
    yamaha px-3 Denon dl-110 --- audioquest ic
    carver 1.5t--- bogdan speaker cables
    ps audio 200cx--- ps audio phono pre amp

  5. #5

    Member Sales Rating: (16)

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    In A Van Down By The River
    Posts
    21,237
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

  6. #6

    Member Sales Rating: (0)

    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Galveston
    Posts
    3,211

    Default

    That aught to about cover it
    Home Theater:Samsung8000-55LED,Pioneer SC35, Pioneer DV-79AVi, Sunfire TGA7201, LSi25, LCi RTSc, LC80i
    2chnl system:Melody 101 tube pre, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, W4S Dac, MG Audio Planus2 speaker cables
    Office rig: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures

  7. #7

    Member Sales Rating: (1)

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Descending toward the moon in the CLEM (Chinese Lunar Excursion Module), looking for Chang'e
    Posts
    11,777

    Default

    H9 has got this...the only thing I'd add is the 'price'? lol Try to buy one of these on the cheap? Good Luck!

    cnh

  8. #8

    Member Sales Rating: (0)

    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Galveston
    Posts
    3,211

    Default

    I am looking at Ushers R.1.5 which boasts 40+ watts in class A 150watts in A/B@8 OHM

    for $2500 this is one of the most cost effective amps on the new market boasting class A

    I am hoping this will work well between Cary SPL98 and mini dancer 2 for my 2 chnl system


    http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/3_power_amps_e.html
    Home Theater:Samsung8000-55LED,Pioneer SC35, Pioneer DV-79AVi, Sunfire TGA7201, LSi25, LCi RTSc, LC80i
    2chnl system:Melody 101 tube pre, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, W4S Dac, MG Audio Planus2 speaker cables
    Office rig: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures

  9. #9

    Member Sales Rating: (2)

    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    8,305

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cnh View Post
    H9 has got this...the only thing I'd add is the 'price'? lol Try to buy one of these on the cheap? Good Luck!

    cnh
    Inexpensive (and excellent) Class A amplification is quite achievable if one doesn't mind slinging a little solder.
    all the best,
    mrh

  10. #10

    Member Sales Rating: (16)

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    In A Van Down By The River
    Posts
    21,237

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mhardy6647 View Post
    Inexpensive (and excellent) Class A amplification is quite achievable if one doesn't mind slinging a little solder.
    IMO, that's highly debateable if you are talking something new if you are talking transistors with any kind of power output. But then it depends on how you want to define class A.

    H9

    P.s. you talking about building your own?
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

  11. #11

    Member Sales Rating: (16)

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    In A Van Down By The River
    Posts
    21,237

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by txcoastal1 View Post
    I am looking at Ushers R.1.5 which boasts 40+ watts in class A 150watts in A/B@8 OHM

    for $2500 this is one of the most cost effective amps on the new market boasting class A

    I am hoping this will work well between Cary SPL98 and mini dancer 2 for my 2 chnl system


    http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/3_power_amps_e.html
    Not familiar with Usher amps. Looks to be a Threshold copy or atleast heavily based on a Threshold from days past. Probably a very capable amp. $2500??? There are a lot of great amps in the price range used. If you get it, be sure to post your impressions.

    H9
    Last edited by heiney9; 05-02-2011 at 12:47 PM.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

  12. #12

    Member Sales Rating: (0)

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Canuckistan
    Posts
    3,146

    Default

    Chassis and heatsinks look like complete vintage Thresold knockoffs.

  13. #13

    Member Sales Rating: (2)

    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    8,305

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    IMO, that's highly debateable if you are talking something new if you are talking transistors with any kind of power output. But then it depends on how you want to define class A.

    H9

    P.s. you talking about building your own?
    Not with transistors (or with much power output) - not big fans of either.
    www.passdiy.com will lead one along interesting paths for reasonable investments, though.
    all the best,
    mrh

  14. #14

    Member Sales Rating: (26)

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    The tube lair in Charlotte, NC
    Posts
    11,323

    Default

    Thank you gentlemen for your answers. I apologize if this has been beat to death in the recent past. You have to realize that I only log on to a thread if it interests me. Seeing as how I have not had a Class A amplifier and when I thought I was all of a sudden getting one, I became interested.

    My bad.

    Any additional information is more than welcome and it seems I have a lot to learn when it comes to this question. All in due time. Thank you again. You gentlemen rock!
    In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

    The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction.

  15. #15

    Member Sales Rating: (58)

    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    6 Underground
    Posts
    25,306

    Default

    True Class A or not, it's a nice amplifier Tom. The aesthetics are flashy but not overdone.

  16. #16

    Member Sales Rating: (26)

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    The tube lair in Charlotte, NC
    Posts
    11,323

    Default

    Thanks Mark, I'm unpacking it now.......time for some fun!
    In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

    The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction.

  17. #17

    Member Sales Rating: (9)

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Baltimore
    Posts
    2,487

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dorokusai View Post
    True Class A or not, it's a nice amplifier Tom. The aesthetics are flashy but not overdone.
    How does True Class A compare with Pure Class A?
    Wris****ch--->Crisco

  18. #18

    Member Sales Rating: (0)

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Canuckistan
    Posts
    3,146

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by strider View Post
    How does True Class A compare with Pure Class A?
    James and Brock,its go time boys.

  19. #19

    Member Sales Rating: (0)

    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Galveston
    Posts
    3,211

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FTGV View Post
    James and Brock,its go time boys.
    Get a rope
    Home Theater:Samsung8000-55LED,Pioneer SC35, Pioneer DV-79AVi, Sunfire TGA7201, LSi25, LCi RTSc, LC80i
    2chnl system:Melody 101 tube pre, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, W4S Dac, MG Audio Planus2 speaker cables
    Office rig: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures

  20. #20

    Member Sales Rating: (4)

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    3,326

    Default

    Washington Apple vs. Fiji Apples,

    Which one is Real? :tongue:
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone.

  21. #21

    Member Sales Rating: (0)

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Canuckistan
    Posts
    3,146

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by megasat16 View Post
    Washington Apple vs. Fiji Apples,

    What one is Real? :tongue:
    Niether.:tongue:

  22. #22

    Member Sales Rating: (4)

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    3,326

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FTGV View Post
    Niether.:tongue:
    You love Oranges? :tongue:

    California Oranges vs. Florida Oranges?

    Which one is Real?
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone.

  23. #23

    Member Sales Rating: (0)

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Canuckistan
    Posts
    3,146

    Default

    Florida ,cuz dem single ended.

  24. #24

    Member Sales Rating: (4)

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    3,326

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FTGV View Post
    Florida ,cuz dem single ended.
    Uh...You need to get unstuck from the Florida ones.

    I'll tell ya the real stuff. The wife and I came back from San Fran to LA like 3 weeks ago; she wanted to buy some Garlic at Gilroy in the local produce stand.

    We stopped by at Gilroy junction and bought a few bags of Garlic, and I found these Huge Naval Oranges. $4 bucks for a whole bag (may be like 10lbs or more). I regret I bought only a bag coz they are the sweetest Oranges I ever tasted in my entire life.

    Well, next time it is.
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone.

  25. #25

    Member Sales Rating: (13)

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    The Beautiful Central Oregon Coast
    Posts
    4,131

    Default

    I compared the Music Hall Mambo, which is supposed to be Class A, to my tube integrated a while back. I preferred the tube integrated overall but I really liked that Mambo too.
    ____________________________
    2 channel - Parasound A21 amp, PS Audio PWD MKII w/bridge, modded EE Minimax pre, ML Source speakers, Kimber 4TC, Gabriel Gold Rapture V3/Silnote Morpheus Ref. II IC's, Ps Audio AC5, AC3 and Pangea AC14XL power cords
    HT - Pio. Elite VSX21TXH, LG 60PK550 plasma, Panny DMP-BDT210 BDP, DTV HD receiver, SB Touch, 5 x Polk RC85i in-wall speakers
    Computer - Windows 7/JRiver, M2Tech HiFace 2 w/external battery power, Grant Fidelity TubeDac 11, Fostex PMO.4n monitors

  26. #26

    Member Sales Rating: (26)

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    The tube lair in Charlotte, NC
    Posts
    11,323

    Default

    dragon1952, could you possibly describe the difference? I'm not backing you to a wall and I appreciate the fact that you may back down, given recent activity. That said, I would like to know what your observations were. No holds barred.
    In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

    The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction.

  27. #27

    Member Sales Rating: (2)

    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    8,305

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by megasat16 View Post
    Washington Apple vs. Fiji Apples,

    Which one is Real? :tongue:
    Fiji... or Fuji?
    all the best,
    mrh

  28. #28

    Member Sales Rating: (13)

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    The Beautiful Central Oregon Coast
    Posts
    4,131

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by treitz3 View Post
    dragon1952, could you possibly describe the difference? I'm not backing you to a wall and I appreciate the fact that you may back down, given recent activity. That said, I would like to know what your observations were. No holds barred.
    Man...it was a while ago and I didn't have my current CDP. I think I was using a Music Hall CD25.2, but I'm pretty hooked on the tube sound. I like the smoother top, and more lush mid-range. The Mambo was smoother than a regular class A/B type solid state but it still sounded solid state. Very detailed highs, livelier faster paced, brighter, etc. So like a smoother, higher end solid state sound I guess, but definitely not the 'tube sound'.
    ____________________________
    2 channel - Parasound A21 amp, PS Audio PWD MKII w/bridge, modded EE Minimax pre, ML Source speakers, Kimber 4TC, Gabriel Gold Rapture V3/Silnote Morpheus Ref. II IC's, Ps Audio AC5, AC3 and Pangea AC14XL power cords
    HT - Pio. Elite VSX21TXH, LG 60PK550 plasma, Panny DMP-BDT210 BDP, DTV HD receiver, SB Touch, 5 x Polk RC85i in-wall speakers
    Computer - Windows 7/JRiver, M2Tech HiFace 2 w/external battery power, Grant Fidelity TubeDac 11, Fostex PMO.4n monitors

  29. #29

    Member Sales Rating: (26)

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    The tube lair in Charlotte, NC
    Posts
    11,323

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fastz28
    Some aficionados who prefer class A amplifiers also prefer the use of thermionic valve (or "tube") designs instead of transistors, especially in Single-ended triode output configurations.....
    Nice post BTW, thank you.

    Thank you as well, Dragon1952 for your observations. One of the main things I miss with the new [to me] amp I recently acquired is that I can also tell that it is without a doubt, an SS amplifier. Right now I'm torn between the transparency, precise imaging and a multitude of other aspects that the MF amp gives but while listening it seems that I yearn for that tube sound.

    Don't get me wrong, I have tubes in the rig [pre and CDP] but no longer in the amplification department until I put the Anthems back in. I was thinking to myself today that maybe I should start looking at class A tube amplifiers. Best of both worlds, I would imagine.

    I think I'll start a new thread about that here in just a minute.
    In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

    The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

     

Similar Threads

  1. sound of class d amps vs class ab
    By killerb in forum Car Audio & Electronics
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: 01-05-2012, 11:58 PM
  2. Class AB
    By erniejade in forum 2 Channel Audio
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 02-21-2009, 01:14 PM
  3. Class A CEC Amp 53
    By NotaSuv in forum 2 Channel Audio
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 01-17-2009, 10:14 PM
  4. Class A, Class B amps, etc.?
    By Norm Apter in forum Electronics
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 05-26-2008, 09:34 AM
  5. PDX4.150 Class D Midbass against Soundstream Class A/B Midbass
    By Polkemon in forum Car Audio & Electronics
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 04-10-2008, 08:36 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts