preamp or "no" preamp

[soundfreak1]

Have a friend (true,only one but its a start) who while his pas3 is in the shop is connecting his cd and tuner direct to his amp,( with "incredible results" I've heard of this before but it makes Me wonder why we use preamps other that having to use of phono or tape loops. He claims better or at least equal sound quality! What's going on here? I haven't tried this myself till I get more info, it just made me curious ie "shorter signal path, less ele. Between source and amp ect. Any downsides to this?

[WilliamM2]

I've ran my CD player direct into my amp before, less in the signal path. The downside would be if your source has no volume control (most tuners), or if you have more than one source. Most amps only have one input.

[soundfreak1]

Yea I could that but his and my amp have gain controls, he says they work just fine for volume control. I only have 2 inputs in my pre anyway ( line stage tube pre) how is the sound without your pre inline?

[heiney9]

The gain controls on your amp is functioning as a pre-amp. Most audiophile amps don't have gain controls.......less in the signal path.

[jinjuku]

With the consolidation of media down to one source it is easier than ever to cut out a whole lot of electronics.

I am going to most likely do a battery powered Media PC (not a laptop but a desktop) with the E-MU 1212m PCIe going directly to the amp. It will be able to play my ripped collection, FM/AM, Internet Radio (Pandora etc...).

Gain controls on an amp are NOT meant for volume controls. They are input signal attenuators. You only turn the gain knobs up far enough that the input voltage can drive the amplifier to it's maximum output. You then leave the gain control alone. Read up on gain matching.

You use the volume in your source.

[heiney9]

Volume in a source whether it be a cdp or computer is still considered a pre-amp. It's an extra "stage" and more components in the chain. Plus the attenuators in components are usually very cheap and have extremely poor channel tracking.

I'd take a well designed pre-amp over a computer/soundcard everyday and twice on Sunday.

H9

[jinjuku]

Volume in a source whether it be a cdp or computer is still considered a pre-amp. It's an extra "stage" and more components in the chain. Plus the attenuators in components are usually very cheap and have extremely poor channel tracking.

I'd take a well designed pre-amp over a computer/soundcard everyday and twice on Sunday.

H9

So cards like the Emu 1212m, Lynx, RME can't have properly designed pre-amps?

I'll take a well designed anything over a poorly designed anything. The fact that I get a zero latency bus with a PCIe card vs USB cuts out a whole other set of compromises plus an external pre-amp with all it's electronics. It's that much closer to the source.

So low latency, low jitter, low parts count, closer to the source. No clunky CD transport...

I know in case of the Emu it also has TOSLink, S/Pdif, and AES/EBU out. Extremely flexible solution. Almost any source is going to have what you are talking about. Are you saying that you will feed your pre-amp digitally?

[soundfreak1]

Was just courious how this worked, my pre touts one of the shortest signal paths available ( h-9,I know you have the same one) and I really like what this pre does to my music.

[heiney9]

I don't know about the shortest signal path available, but it is basically a linestage passive. Very short and simple signal path and sounds a helluva lot better than it should given it's price point.

It has been one of the more pleasant surprises in my long audio journey. With the right tubes, it's simply spectacular.

H9

[steveinaz]

Trying my CDP direct into my amp years ago is what convinced me to go passive. I now use a Placette linestage for volume control. Super linear presentation. My CEC, when run analog out, has a single-ended class a output.

You can go passive provided all your sources can drive the amp to full (or near full output); for most amps, that means an output from the source of 1.5-2.0 volts (my Parasound requires 1.5v in to produce full output). The only issue I sometimes have is with some DTV channels with very, very low output--though they still drive my amp to loud enough levels. I've never had a problem with DVD/BluRay or CD inputs.

To verify this, look at the input levels required for your amp (per it's specs). Then ensure all your sources output at least the minimum required to match the amp.

[soundfreak1]

I agree with u on the sl2000a pre! Truly remarkable!! I have to admit when I first saw it I giggled a little. But when I listened to it I was amazed,totaly blown away to be truthful. And the price is stupid good. And when I went to seiman than to telefunkin tubes " holy
Crap" I wish they had one with tape loops and phono, I woulnt hessitate to but one! In fact I'm dying to find someone in my area with one of their amps to listen to!

[heiney9]

They do.

http://www.dared.us/products_mc7p.php

It's a lot more money and whole lot more to re-tube.

I have 2 of the Dared integrated amps and they are superb, just like the pre-amp. I have an MP-5 and VP-16. My VP-16 is the newer model with piano gloss sides and Auricaps.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin.../dared_mp5.htm

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/dared2/vp16.html

http://daredtubeaudio.bravehost.com/VP-16.htm

They aren't going anywhere. In fact I found a seller in the UK that has NIB VP-16's and I'm thinking of another one just to have as a back up. Again, as with all my tube gear, I have gone overboard getting the best tubes available and it makes a HUGE difference.

H9

[soundfreak1]

That pre looks purdy!! What price range on the 7p also did they make any straight amps. In the recent past?
Looks like about 3 to 4 hundo to retube! But like you said its worth it! The diff. They make is astonishing! 1st time in 40 years I'm completely satisfied with the sound I'm hearing.That pre brought my amp ALIVE and the rta 12b's couldn't sound better. Been thinking about moding the 12b's but can't bring myself to touch them. If I ever find an extra pair of xoveres I can afford I might mod them,that way if I don't like them I can revert back easily and not butcher the speakers. "Butcher" maybe too strong a word,( no offense ment) but I like stuff original as poss. But........ Always filling to learn. Those 12's just don't need a lot of improvement in my mind. I think it a matter of synergy with the equip. Each piece just work so nicely together that "the. Sum of the whole out weights the sum of the parts". just though trial and experimenting I hit on this combo and it works. Its a blind pig and the acorn kinda thing I think! LOL

[soundfreak1]

Btw I don't stream thru a computer but direct into the pre with a gateway device- less loss and to artifacts added to the sound. Very clean and dynamic!

[polkfarmboy]

The w4s dac2 has volume control and makes me think if adding a pre amp to this would make the sound degrade ?

[steveinaz]

If your using it in line level mode, no--provided you've got a good preamp to begin with. It really depends on which unit has a better preamp section.

My Benchmark can work as either a preamp, or line level DAC--I use it as the latter, because my Placette is more transparent as a passive linestage.

[FTGV]

I don't know about the shortest signal path available, but it is basically a linestage passive.

If it has a tube(or transistor ,opamp etc.) in the signal path it's not passive.

[steveinaz]

^exactly. It's a linestage, but not a passive linestage. Big difference.

[heiney9]

Yep guys, I ran out of time to edit. I meant line stage and added the word passive since it was on the brain. It's not passive.

H9

[Face]

The w4s dac2 has volume control and makes me think if adding a pre amp to this would make the sound degrade ?

Using their STP-SE as a preamp sounds better than using the DAC-2 to control the volume.

[FTGV]

Wether it be an impedance mismatch thing or something else I have found that using passive attenuators can depending on associated components give the impression of reduced bass slam and dynamic punch.

[soundfreak1]

"NOW FOR SOMETHING TOALLY DIFFRENT" how do you guys put those little quips on the bottom of your threads, can't find where to do it?

[steveinaz]

Edit your signature in your control panel "User CP" above.

[mdaudioguy]

"NOW FOR SOMETHING TOALLY DIFFRENT" how do you guys put those little quips on the bottom of your threads, can't find where to do it?

Quick Links -> Edit Signature

[mdaudioguy]

Edit your signature in your control panel "User CP" above.

Or that! :tongue:

[steveinaz]

Wether it be an impedance mismatch thing or something else I have found that using passive attenuators can depending on associated components give the impression of reduced bass slam and dynamic punch.

Sometimes I think that is a "which came first, the chicken or egg" scenario. It may be that active preamps are adding some slam (due to preamplification), and when the passive is in place, you're hearing the signal as it was originally...but who knows?

When my Benchmark was being used as my preamp, there was a bit more slam--but at the expense of the absolute frequency linearity I get with the Placette; so it's a trade-off. My gut feeling is, that the BM is adding some tonal color.

Not everyone likes the transparent tonal "flavor" for sure.

[soundfreak1]

Thanks for the edit clue, hope that worked.

[newrival]

Within his review of the W4S Dac-2, Srajan Ebaen tests the DAC's perfomance direct into the pre-amp with surprising results. Have a look on page 3 (i believe) of his review for 6moons here: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/wyred4/dac.html and see his comparisons with and without his $10k pre, as well as some interesting insight into the role of the preamplifier as a stereo component.

[mhardy6647]

Haven't used an active preamp for at least two years.
I am just now "experimenting" with a TVC (transformer volume control) - well, or maybe it's an AVC (autoformer volume control)... and I am liking what I am hearing, very much. It is almost certainly gonna stay in the living room hifi.

http://www.intactaudio.com/atten.html

[Ern Dog]

Well, I'll throw in my 2 cents. My Oppo has volume control built in, so I went direct to amp and was blown away with how much cleaner it sounded. It was then that I realized that my other components had surpassed my preamp and that my preamp was actually holding my system back. After lots of research I ended up with a Placette preamp because it is know for it's transparency.

Earlier versions of my rig really benefitted from having my Modwright 9.0 preamp in the mix, so it really depends on the synergy you got going on in your rig.