How much amp for Monitor 70 series II speakers?

[atlanticjay]

At the risk of duplication, I have a question about the power needed to get quality sound from these speakers.

I'm strongly considering buying these as fronts (with CS2 center), and from comments to one of my prior posts, I am pretty sure that my AVR rated for 95wpc won't cut it in 5.1 - definitely not if I go 7.1.

I've been looking lots of places for amps, and cost obviously varies alot with channels and per-channel output.

One person responded to my prior post that he got a noticeable difference when he went to a 200 wpc amp, rather than anything lower that he tried.

2-channel (or more) amps rated in the 100 or 125 wpc area seem plentiful and decently priced (especially used), but I just don't know if these have enough power for these speakers.

For those not aware, the M70s have a power rating of 20 - 275 watts, 8 ohm impedance and 90dB sensitivity.

My room is 21 x 18 x 7.5 and my listening area will be somewhere in the 12 - 14ft range from the speakers. Room is family-roomish, with carpet and couple of sofas (VERY large window on one end with blackout curtains).

Mainly HT usage and mostly mid-level to moderate listening volumes (I have a less than 2 yr old, so cranking it is not an option most of the time).

Will also be running a sub, if that makes a difference - brand/size yet to be determined.

If I amplify the 70's, do I need to amplify the center as well, for better/best results?

Also, if I don't go 70's, will still be going with 60's and the CS2. I know the 60's would probably even benefit from amping, but would it be necessary?

Lots of questions, I know. Thanks in advance for any and all comments.

[Lietuvis91]

HT focus + large space, you fit all the symptoms of being able to truely benefit from large speakers. I would definitely amplify the front 3, fronts and center. No doubt about it. The center channel will see a gain in sound clarity/quality from extra power, no doubt.

As far as power. It's need vs want, factored in with what you can actually afford. It seems to me like the power ratings speaker manufacturers list, like 20-275, are really saying you should feed them 275w, but anything down to 20w will produce sound, with obviously siminished quality. So how much do you need? Well how close do you want to be to getting the most out of these things? I say 200w+, and don't waste time with less...

[Almadacr]

Well let me say that your choice of AVR its .... great you have pre outs , now ... your receiver is capable of driving those speakers , but like almost all AVR`s when the 7 channels driven for sure that it wont keep the same values as announced by the manufacturer . For the sake of it and ease of mind later you can ad a external amp to drive your speakers .

Now like you and me we reside in Canada and literally we are being rip off around here with the retail prices on amps being the best choice internet direct sales and it comes to mind Emotiva , but you can check Cunuckaudiomart for local deals or around Canada .

I had the Pioneer VXS 1125 , and i am waiting for the new Elite 53 to come out , so i sold my 1125 and put it back my old 919 without pre outs and i have no problems driving my 60`s on a 7.2 system

[atlanticjay]

Yes, Almadacr, we certainly do get ripped on prices living in Canada. I have been watching CAM and Audiogon for amps, but living so far east really kills me on shipping, no matter new or used.

Even though the 70's only cost about $140/pr more than the 60's on Newegg.ca, the real extra cost is incrementally higher when you figure that you need to add the amp to the 70's.

I am leaning towards just going with the 60's for now, and watch for a deal on an amp like an Emotiva Xp-3 to come up on CAM or Audiogon. Then I can think about upgrading to the 70's and use the 60's elsewhere - like maybe my upstairs living room where I have a terrible sounding Samsung speaker bar.

[samnor]

There are a lot of threads in this forum about whether you really need 200wpc which you can peruse. Based on what you said, its not really about the watts especially since you mention you're not going to be able to crank up the volume. 125watts of a quality amp is good enough for most mid range speakers. With 90db efficiency you really dont need that much power to make those speakers sing...and you'll rarely if ever be listening at > 75watt level...

my personal experience: I have a pair of wharfedale diamond 9.6 towers that are of similiar efficiency (90db) and I have tried using both an adcom gfa-5400 (125wpc) and a parasound hca 1500 (205w/ch). Granted its not a fair comparison, but the adcom is not a slouch by any means.

You can start off getting a decent 100-125wpc amp (nad, rotel, adcom, b&k, parasound come to mind) and then when upgradeitis hits you, you can move up the chain...

[dorokusai]

You do NOT need 200wpc for the MON70 loudspeaker. As Samnor mentioned above, 125wpc would be wonderful but they're efficient @ 90db so anything from 50wpc and up will allow you to get very loud.

[Joe08867]

What Doro said. I will add one thing. Make sure it is Clean, High Current Power. Ok that;s two things. An Adcom, B&K, Parasound, NAD or if it is for HT mostly Emotiva all make good amplifiers. And if you don't mind used, you can get a lot of bang for your buck.

[dorokusai]

Absolutely.

[Lietuvis91]

my personal experience: I have a pair of wharfedale diamond 9.6 towers that are of similiar efficiency (90db) and I have tried using both an adcom gfa-5400 (125wpc) and a parasound hca 1500 (205w/ch). Granted its not a fair comparison, but the adcom is not a slouch by any means.

I did a similar comparison with my hca1000 125w/ch and hca1500a that you have on my m70s. It's all in the details, but I found the difference significant. It's the difference between HEARING the slap/kick/thud, or FEELING it in any movie! To me that's important if i'm going to waste any time and money putting together a nice HT sound system.

I agree that you do not NEED 200w/ch to run m70s, but if you want to see them really shine, 200w is what it takes to get them there. I would not go back to the hca1000 or anything lower for that matter.

I am of the mind set: do it once, do it right. But it does come down to what you can afford.

[dorokusai]

Keep in mind Lietuvis91 that the HCA1000 is not even built the same way as the HCA1500, so your observations make perfect sense. It's a nice amplifier and can be bridged mono but the HCA1500 is a much better amplifier by a very large margin. The larger HCA is an excellent amplifier and a real bargain on the used market.

[samnor]

Lietuvis91, I totally agree with you that for HT or if you like your music loud, the extra wpc is going to help in reducing the distortion at higher levels and will certainly help you HEAR and FEEL.
But at the volume levels that I think the OP is going to be listening at, I doubt he will be able to FEEL a slap/thud etc.. Anyways, while its nice to get the higher wpc, budget certainly comes into play here. And "do it once, do it right" is probably more akin to the famous last words before upgradeitis kicks in... Lets face it, most people dont get it right the first time due to myriad factors including money, the listening room constraints etc... Unless you drop some serious coin and get some massive krell mono blocks, an average "audiophile" is always going to be looking around. thats my 2cents...

[Lietuvis91]

You all make good points. At lower listening volumes differences are likely to be smaller. Untimately, I think the OP should still go with the M70s, it is a superior speaker to m60s and a better fit for his big room. Get the speaker you want. Just try to score a reciever that puts out good power with all ch driven and has pre outs and you'll be set, for now, until you decide what you want to do next, or what you can afford.

[cfrizz]

I did a similar comparison with my hca1000 125w/ch and hca1500a that you have on my m70s. It's all in the details, but I found the difference significant. It's the difference between HEARING the slap/kick/thud, or FEELING it in any movie! To me that's important if i'm going to waste any time and money putting together a nice HT sound system.

I agree that you do not NEED 200w/ch to run m70s, but if you want to see them really shine, 200w is what it takes to get them there. I would not go back to the hca1000 or anything lower for that matter.

I am of the mind set: do it once, do it right. But it does come down to what you can afford.

I am also of the mind set of do it once and do it right, and the extra power allows that to happen.

I've had a few amps on my RTA-8Ts, and they didn't show me what they were truly capable of until I got the Parasound 1500A. Nor will I ever go back to less power.

Again it all depends on what you want, if you want to experiment with lots of gear, then start low & work your way up. But if you want to ensure that your speakers are operating to their full potential all of the time, then keep checking Audiogon for a good deal on 3-5 channel amps that can be used on any speakers now and in the future so that you can focus on just enjoying your music and movies rather than the continual expensive search for gear.

[Joe08867]

You all make good points. At lower listening volumes differences are likely to be smaller. Untimately, I think the OP should still go with the M70s, it is a superior speaker to m60s and a better fit for his big room. Get the speaker you want. Just try to score a reciever that puts out good power with all ch driven and has pre outs and you'll be set, for now, until you decide what you want to do next, or what you can afford.

Actually from my experience lower volume is were the separate amps shine. And the higher the current the better. They are able to stay crisp and clear with better dynamics than most receivers can produce.

Your best bet would be a receiver that has preouts for future upgraditis.

[samnor]

In our examples, we were comparing two dedicated amps... not a receiver and an amp...

Aside from that, I would tend to agree with you that a 100 wpc receiver (where they usually overinflate their numbers for the most part) will not hold a candle to a dedicated amp (a nad or rotel etc) of even just 80wpc.

[deronb1]

I've had a few amps on my RTA-8Ts, and they didn't show me what they were truly capable of until I got the Parasound 1500A. Nor will I ever go back to less power.

.

How many watts are you putting through your 8Ts?

[Lietuvis91]

Cfrizz:
Ditto!

Joe08867:
I agree with you that an amp makes a difference at all volume levels, no doubt, but I do think it takes a little more critical listening to notice it at lower volumes. Either way, In my mind the difference is night and day overall.

So to the OP: you see the different opinions on what might work for you. Some of us suggest you to do this right off the bat, some correctly note that perfection is NOT a necessity and you can definitely get by with less. This thread captures very well what you can expect with either option that you select, so now you are going to have test and tune to your liking and wallet.

The problem with this hobby is, sometimes you don't figure out what you want, until you try things and realize what you DON"T want.

[Joe08867]

Samnor and Lietuvis91, I would say the same about an amplifier from B&K, Adcom or NAD amplifier vs an amp Onkyo, or Audiosource and many other large manufacturers.

A 100 Watt B&K ST1400 is so much more than a 100 watt Onkyo M282 could ever be. Not that the Onk is bad it just isn't as good.

You are going to have better attack, transient response and overall sound quality even at lower volumes with a better quality amp.

[samnor]

Joe,
I think we're saying the same thing... What we (Lietuvis91 included) were talking about was comparing two dedicated amps of similar build quality but different wpcs. Are you going to notice a massive difference at moderate listening levels... Unless you have an exceptional ear, I would tend to say not...

Personally, I wouldnt even bother comparing a receiver with a dedicated amp. BTW, maybe my terminology confused you in that when I say "amp" I mean a dedicated amp and not a receiver. Separates are the way to go... I thought thats what we were saying. The only question to the OP is whether he needs a very powerful dedicated amp vs a lower wpc dedicated amp.

Samnor and Lietuvis91, I would say the same about an amplifier from B&K, Adcom or NAD amplifier vs an amp Onkyo, or Audiosource and many other large manufacturers.

A 100 Watt B&K ST1400 is so much more than a 100 watt Onkyo M282 could ever be. Not that the Onk is bad it just isn't as good.

You are going to have better attack, transient response and overall sound quality even at lower volumes with a better quality amp.

[Almadacr]

Ok i understand what you guys are saying but i also understand what the OP is saying , living in Canada is a total different ball game , not because the economy is strong , the thing is , we are paying 30 to 40% more than the US even if the CAD dollar is stronger than the American one it comes down with the excuse of market demand . Sometimes we can get some good deals , but most of the time we don`t .

I was checking the Canuck audio for the used market compared with audiogon and its amazing the difference in prices , just forget about shipping .

Locally 5 minutes away from my door i can o the store near me with high end gear and you go with the prices over there .

For now we have the chance to have Newegg in Canada and we can get Polk Monitors as the american counter part do you guys think that we have the same promotions that the american newegg ? No way we are still paying top dollar , the funny thing is ... this monitor speakers come from the US my 60`s came from LA and the CS1 from Boston at least the shipping is the same rate 2.99$

For the Op the 70`s are a real nice set of speakers for the money , now you don`t have a lot of options .

1: Get a new AVR like the Anthem or the Pioneer SC-37 and they will have enough power to drive at louder volumes the 70`s , or use the 70`s for now and later you can buy a EMO XPA-5 , with shipping it will cost you less than to buy a Parasound , Anthem , rotel locally used

[Lietuvis91]

Personal opinion: if I was in OPs situation and had a tight budget, I would forget monitors, keep the receiver, go with an rtia3,1,a6 bookshelf setup which, for now, the current receiver will drive satisfactorily and get a nice sub... DONE!

He will be a step up from monitors, spend less money up front by not having to buy a receiver. Rtia is better for HT anyway and as funds allow get a nice receiver and/or an amp, later add a set of rtia towers to complete a nice 7.1 system.

[cfrizz]

How many watts are you putting through your 8Ts?

I started out 21 years ago with a 50wpc Rotel amp, then went to 110wpc Denon receiver. (I wasn't able to detect any difference) Then I got a 205wpc Parasound 1500A, and HELLO RTA-8Ts!

I added a 200wpc Outlaw Audio monoblock for my center channel, and finally I got my 5 channel 405wpc Sunfire amp for all of my speakers.

I started all of my upgrades in 2004 when I joined this board. Now that I know better, I simply advise newbies to do it in one shot (as far as amps go) rather than piece by piece like I did it, simply because I know better now.

It took me a while to figure out that this equipment is built to last, so that if you make the right choices the first time around, and are not afraid to buy used gear from places like Audiogon, you can get it all done a lot quicker then the 4-5 years it took me to do it.

I don't have all the latest & greatest gear, but then I don't need it at least not right now.

My main priority is good music, Once I learned how beneficial lots of power is I never looked back. My speakers have all the power they need whenever they need them to operate to their full potential and this is the most important factor for me.

My gear list is in my signature from my first post.

It was this forum, that taught me all about "man amps", however, most of them have gone off into tubeland and separate systems, & now try to convert everyone else, but I'm not interested in following the crowd.

I only have room for one system to do both 2 channel and HT and it works just fine for both. If you pick good gear from the get go, you can enjoy both with just one system.

Remember this, it is better to have it and not need it than the other way around. And if you take the time to study the gear you are interested in & be more willing to spend more money up front rather than to keep buy different but the same types of gear over & over again, you will come out ahead of the game, and have a system that you can enjoy for decades.

Good luck on your audio journey

Cathy

[deronb1]

I started out 20 years ago with a 50wpc Rotel amp, then went to 110wpc Denon receiver. (I wasn't able to detect any difference) Then I got a 205wpc Parasound 1500A, and HELLO RTA-8Ts!

:

Thanks for the good info. I am running a Denon AVR now and was thinking of using smaller speakers for HT with it. Then I was going to buy a more powerful 2 ch amp for the 8Ts for music enjoyment. It is nice to know that they come alive with 200wpc.

I was looking at some integrated amps, but mostly in the 100-125wpc range. With your Parasound is that 205wpc into 8 or 6 ohms?

[cfrizz]

205wpc @ 8 ohms.

[Almadacr]

Personal opinion: if I was in OPs situation and had a tight budget, I would forget monitors, keep the receiver, go with an rtia3,1,a6 bookshelf setup which, for now, the current receiver will drive satisfactorily and get a nice sub... DONE!

He will be a step up from monitors, spend less money up front by not having to buy a receiver. Rtia is better for HT anyway and as funds allow get a nice receiver and/or an amp, later add a set of rtia towers to complete a nice 7.1 system.

so you say that we will pay around 500$ pair for A3 as the same price as the monitor 70`s on newegg ???? Yes 449 + taxes are the price of the RTi A3 in Canada

[Lietuvis91]

so you say that we will pay around 500$ pair for A3 as the same price as the monitor 70`s on newegg ???? Yes 449 + taxes are the price of the RTi A3 in Canada

Oh man... i was thinking polk direct on ebay, but i just checked and they dont ship to canada... didnt realize this. Jeez, u guys do have it rough.

[Almadacr]

Oh man... i was thinking polk direct on ebay, but i just checked and they dont ship to canada... didnt realize this. Jeez, u guys do have it rough.

This is a huge problem for us HT enthusiasts the only but only good deal right now with polk speakers are T600 199$ , and RTi 10 for 249$ , this at futureshop ( Canadian brother of Bestbuy ) but if it was my money i would get the RTi 10 compared to the monitors 70 . But of course for that price they are sold out

[51dueller]

Sometimes Visions.ca (western Canada Electronics store) has some decent sales. Don't know how they have the Monitor 60, 70 and PSW505 as I thought they were Newegg only. They currently have the Monitor 60 for $298 pair and Monitor 70 $398.

[atlanticjay]

Well....lots of info here. Thanks everyone for the comments.

The receiver is a done deal - Yamaha RX-A800 - I should have it in my hands tomorrow. It does have pre-outs, and is rated 95wpc as mentioned. As for the speakers, one of the reasons I leaned towards the Monitors is because I can actually get them in the cherry color, which I kind of like - seems we only get black in most speakers here in Canada.

As to prices, as Almadacr has said, it is a travesty here. I could get the M70s, CS2 and M40s on NewEgg US for almost 1/2 of what they cost on NewEgg Canada. And, no, we aren't allowed to shop on Polk Audio Ebay store. Even companies who will sell and ship to Canadians charge an arm and leg for shipping usually - or rather UPS or FedEx do. I have actually been considering getting a US shipping address with a depot in Maine, so I could just drive about 2hrs, cross the border and save myself the brokerage fees - plus maybe actually be able to shop with NewEgg US and similar sites.

My room where this gear will go is still bare studs, and will be so for at least another month or 2 - and I am waiting for NewEgg Canada to have a deep discount sale on speakers - so I have time to further watch the used market for amps and keep investigating.

I also have the mindset of trying, as much as reasonable, to do it right the first time, so I won't have to continuously upgrade. A case in point is the countless hours I have spent obsessing about how much in-wall cable to run (ie. do I pre-wire for 11.1 and bi-wiring/bi-amping, even though I may never use it?) But I am trying to balance this with somewhat of a budget - in order to stay married.

The reality is, I am trying to do as much research as possible to determine a good value-to-performance mix, and then spend what I need to spend. I saved about $350 on my receiver getting it on Ebay as I would have paid for it in Canada (that is even after shipping and duties, etc.), so that gives me some room to spend elsewhere.

I would not at all consider myself to be an audiophile - I just want a system that sounds good and I know will sound good for a while. I don't want to shortcut it like I did by buying the terrible sounding speaker bar that is currently attached to my living room TV.

All that said, I think I have the bug now! I have been thinking about how I might set up systems in my bedroom, my upstairs living room and my den. These will all take time, but boy will it be fun.

[plainoledave]

i ran nad 2100 (50 cont 200 dynamic) 2400 (100 continous 400 dynamic) & 218 (250 continous 275 dynamic) and the 218 drove my monitor 70's the best, hands down. I ran a strict two channel rig.