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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by SDA1C View Post
    That's because he does! Problem is he has about as much diplomatic worth as a set of Bose Accoustamass.
    Well, there lies the problem. Diplomats who never worked in or ran a buisness,met a payroll, making trade agreements that clearly benefit one side.....and that side sure as crap isn't the U.S.A.

    You can't blame Walmart, they are only doing what we let them do. Actually, I don't even blame china. It's not like China came to us and said take this 14 trillion dollars or else. We created the monster, just need the will to fix it is all.
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  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyb View Post
    Well, there lies the problem. Diplomats who never worked in or ran a buisness,met a payroll, making trade agreements that clearly benefit one side.....and that side sure as crap isn't the U.S.A.

    You can't blame Walmart, they are only doing what we let them do. Actually, I don't even blame china. It's not like China came to us and said take this 14 trillion dollars or else. We created the monster, just need the will to fix it is all.
    Yes, but lets not rush to exonerate China from responsibility yet. China's "currency control" violates all those trade agreements. The trade agreements only make sense if both sides benefit, and compete in a leveled playing field. By manipulating their currency to always be low enough so it'll always make more corporate sense to employ Chinese, and import from China, China is also responsible. They keep demonstrating their utter contempt to inernational low and unfortunately I do not see how this changes in the foreseeable future.
    "If the global crisis continues, by the end of the year Only two Banks will be operational, the Blood Bank and the Sperm Bank. Then these 2 banks will merge and it will be called 'The Bloody ****ing Bank'"

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by carpenter View Post
    Yes, but lets not rush to exonerate China from responsibility yet. China's "currency control" violates all those trade agreements. The trade agreements only make sense if both sides benefit, and compete in a leveled playing field. By manipulating their currency to always be low enough so it'll always make more corporate sense to employ Chinese, and import from China, China is also responsible. They keep demonstrating their utter contempt to inernational low and unfortunately I do not see how this changes in the foreseeable future.
    Very true, but if we keep giving them beneficial trade agreements, where's the motivation to re-value their currency ? Right now, they hold all the cards.
    The worthless U.N. should be putting pressure on them to play fair with regards to their currency but I don't see that happening until the wuan is included in a basket of currency that excludes the dollar.

  4. #34

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    What is happening to us is what has happened in the past with other countries via the WTO, IMF, GATTS, and FTA's.
    More subtle, to be sure, but .... the same thing, IMO.

    Only 2 responses to what's coming:

    "Gentlemen, prepare to defend yourselves"

    or

    "Prepare to be assimilated".


    The USA has become a nation of Ferenghi, IMO: "What's in it for me short term !!", so it looks like it'll be a losing battle.
    A case of we weren't out fought, we were out bought, out thought, and sold out.

    I mean that in a positive way.
    MrBigBlueLight
    Usually right, but sometimes not entirely factually correct.
    Shifting to Plan B

  5. #35

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    [QUOTE=mrbigbluelight;A case of we weren't out fought, we were out bought, out thought, and sold out.

    [/QUOTE]

    Amen to that statement.

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyb View Post
    The worthless U.N. should be putting pressure on them to play fair with regards to their currency but I don't see that happening until the wuan is included in a basket of currency that excludes the dollar.
    The only player that has the ability to force China to level the playing field is the US. But we need leverage over them. And what leverage do we really have when our government goes trillions more into debt each year and we use China to loan us back all the money we give them for their cheap goods...

  7. #37

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    We are the largest consumer on the planet. If that isn't leverage I surely don't know what is!?

    What we need is a bit of self friggin discipline as a nation and we could squeeze any other country for anything.

    Our buying power is what makes us still the most feared nation. Its the baboons on charge that seem to want to give that away.

    We still are THE PEOPLE for gods sake. It's about time we act like it and stop blindly eating the spoonfed bullshi+ from the morons running this show!



    1C
    Last edited by SDA1C; 07-23-2011 at 05:33 PM.

  8. #38

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    Nations don't fear us because we buy their stuff, they line up to sell us as much as they can. Unless you want to restrict our imports and control corporations the way a communist country does, you can't really force Americans to stop shopping at Walmart.

    What other countries like China would fear is if Apple and other US companies were free to open up as many retail stores in any city they wanted to and sell huge amounts of product so we could get our dollars back into our own country. That's how you solve the problem. But you can't do that when the US government is more concerned with running up our government deficit into the trillions of dollars than in giving "evil big business" every advantage they need to outcompete and outsell foreign companies.

  9. #39

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    I must disagree. If we were to actually STOP buying from china they would be begging us for forgiveness in 6 mos.

    We are a fearsome buying power. We may not be feared due to other countries knowing our leaders are to busy staying in or out of the National Enquirer or thinking about what 7500$ suit they will wear to an A list dinner on the pocketbook of its taxpayers to actually give a damn but believe me when its ball to bones other world markets know if we shunned them they would be in deep kimchee over night

    I would welcome an example of a market that would remain stable if we (the US consumer) were to boycot.

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by SDA1C View Post
    I must disagree. If we were to actually STOP buying from china they would be begging us for forgiveness in 6 mos.
    Short of a complete ban on Chinese imports that would cripple companies like walmart and target (and apple too), how do you propose to do this and still keep any pretense of supporting "free markets"?

  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by cheddar View Post
    And then there's our addiction to walmart and target... A large part of every dollar we spend on the cheap goods from stores like these goes to the Chinese who in turn "lend" the money back to us to finance our national debt.
    Addiction? Many shop there because it's the only place they can afford to shop. With stagnant wages for decades, that haven't kept up with the cost of living, what choice do they have?

  12. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by WilliamM2 View Post
    Addiction? Many shop there because it's the only place they can afford to shop. With stagnant wages for decades, that haven't kept up with the cost of living, what choice do they have?
    Completely agree, which is why I think we're long past the point where we can "boycott" Chinese products. I only meant to say that a big part of this whole picture is that average Americans buy up cheap Chinese products by the handful. Not that many people don't have to out of economic necessity these days.
    Last edited by cheddar; 07-23-2011 at 06:50 PM.

  13. #43

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    Free market and free trade are two different things man.

    I don't agree with free trade. Never have. I feel its up to the supplier to decide if the buying market is strong enough compensate for the import/export tariffs. And its up to the importer to set tariffs equal to those they are trading with. With that % being based on a number of factors including but not limited to current market values and availability of goods from other countries that may have less to sell and by necessity have higher import cost due to the need to sell to larger markets.

    There wouldn't be this problem if our market wasn't stifled by our own restrictions that don't apply to other countries. It was stated earlier that the issue at hand is that we have to pay to export to China but they don't have to pay to import here.

    No offense but did you miss that part?

  14. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by SDA1C View Post
    I must disagree. If we were to actually STOP buying from china they would be begging us for forgiveness in 6 mos.

    We are a fearsome buying power. We may not be feared due to other countries knowing our leaders are to busy staying in or out of the National Enquirer or thinking about what 7500$ suit they will wear to an A list dinner on the pocketbook of its taxpayers to actually give a damn but believe me when its ball to bones other world markets know if we shunned them they would be in deep kimchee over night

    I would welcome an example of a market that would remain stable if we (the US consumer) were to boycot.
    Powerful because we are debt ridden consumers? Surely you jest.
    All they really have to do is dump all their greenbacks on the open market
    The dollar collapses. They are left standing as the #1 power in the world,
    with all the factories. The advantage of having money and a trade surplus
    is you are in the driver's seat. There are other markets out there besides us.
    They could handle a boycott a lot better than we could. The Chinese
    government is still old school communist. Make no mistake, they aren't our
    friends.
    "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson

  15. #45

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    Boycott is most definitely a move we can still use. Sorry ...you might have to pay 15 bucks for a shirt instead of 5 for the next couple of years but that pain will be quickly dwarfed by the fact you had to keep your money in your country insted of shipping it over seas .

    Would abolishing NAFTA be a much better option most definitely but not likely due to the fact that lawmakers need to justify their jobs and the amount of face lost by such a large initiative being repealed is just not an option to "them" at any cost even if its the financial demise of this great nation.

    Nobody plays for free friend. The way things are now, the fastest growing nation in the world is getting a free ride on us. Outwardly breaking the rules while doing so and having no one even asking questions. In your face tax and tariff evasion and still we just plod along letting them get away with it.

  16. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by SDA1C View Post
    Free market and free trade are two different things man.

    I don't agree with free trade. Never have. I feel its up to the supplier to decide if the buying market is strong enough compensate for the import/export tariffs. And its up to the importer to set tariffs equal to those they are trading with. With that % being based on a number of factors including but not limited to current market values and availability of goods from other countries that may have less to sell and by necessity have higher import cost due to the need to sell to larger markets.

    There wouldn't be this problem if our market wasn't stifled by our own restrictions that don't apply to other countries. It was stated earlier that the issue at hand is that we have to pay to export to China but they don't have to pay to import here.

    No offense but did you miss that part?
    I was responding to your sweeping statement here:

    Quote Originally Posted by SDA1C View Post
    I would welcome an example of a market that would remain stable if we (the US consumer) were to boycot.
    You seem to not understand that a simple boycott or trade war of any kind that attempts to shut off Chinese imports and make them cry uncle in 6 mo. just doesn't make much sense when our most successful companies like Apple depend on Chinese manufacturing and companies like GM make cars with more foreign workers and content than some cars sold by Toyota etc. Like I said, we're way past simple boycotts at this point.

    The only real solution is to give our own American companies every advantage we can and remove the restrictions so they can outcompete and outsell foreign companies earning our dollars back. Then it doesn't matter where the iPad is made, for example, as long as we can sell boatloads of them to the Chinese. Apple still employs plenty of people designing, selling, and supporting their products in the US even if they aren't the ones sweating over circuit boards. Walmart and Target too.
    Last edited by cheddar; 07-23-2011 at 07:15 PM.

  17. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by sucks2beme View Post
    Powerful because we are debt ridden consumers? Surely you jest.
    All they really have to do is dump all their greenbacks on the open market
    The dollar collapses. They are left standing as the #1 power in the world,
    with all the factories. The advantage of having money and a trade surplus
    is you are in the driver's seat. There are other markets out there besides us.
    They could handle a boycott a lot better than we could. The Chinese
    government is still old school communist. Make no mistake, they aren't our
    friends.
    I figured this was coming sooner or later.

    We are no more debt ridden towards China than they are obligated to pay our import tariffs. Simply put. "You no paya the tariff we no paya the debt"

    You speak of them handling a boycott better than us. If it was a direct boycott..yes I believe you are correct. But like you say they aren't our friends and all fair right. How about we crash a few of their critical goods markets like Taiwan or Korea. Or god forbid we dump India and the middle east on their arrogant asses and stop sending them food. Where does China get their fuel now that nobody can feed the the sand rich countries that produce ALL the fuel china consumes.

    The fact is we the good ol' US of A is one of the only top producing countries that can sustain its self if we simply close the doors. China most certainly cannot survive if we crush their suppliers by no longer feeding or protecting them.

  18. #48

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    The only real solution is to give our own American companies every advantage we can and remove the restrictions so they can outcompete and outsell foreign companies earning our dollars back. Then it doesn't matter where the iPad is made, for example, as long as we can sell boatloads of them to the Chinese. Apple still employs plenty of people designing, selling, and supporting their products in the US even if they aren't the ones sweating over circuit boards. Walmart and Target too.[/QUOTE]

    That's exactly what I'm getting at. The only reason China is making a mockery of us is because we allow it. BY bureaucracy and bad business on our part. They will take advantage as long as we let them.

    There is also another debate I've looked at recently. It's the question of how long will it be before china is out of room for its grossly growing population. With 100K less sq miles and approximately 1 billion more people than we have it wont be long.

    Disregard that last. sorry for the thread jack
    Last edited by SDA1C; 07-23-2011 at 07:26 PM.

  19. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by SDA1C View Post
    China most certainly cannot survive if we crush their suppliers by no longer feeding or protecting them.
    China is Walmart's supplier of manufactured goods. So the company you just crushed was Walmart. China is Apple's supplier of manufactured goods. So the company you just crushed was Apple. You don't seem to understand that US owned and operated companies that employ many thousands of US workers each depend on China to supply their goods. Many of the companies that will not survive will be our own.

  20. #50

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    Why do you suppose they are their suppliers?

    If China can build and ship the products cheaper because they have no export cost to the US then there is a serious issue. This is the exact reason to put the foot down on the evasion techniques of the Chinese imports. I am completely aware or the ramifications of some of the companies but it seems to be as far as this debate goes China has other source and consumer chains but we do not?

    Do you think it will stop with the US if they did bankrupt us? My side view is telling me to mention how odd it is that other countries that are playing by the tax and tariff rules and paying their fare aren't more proactively involved with reeling china back in out of the clouds.

  21. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by SDA1C View Post
    Why do you suppose they are their suppliers?

    If China can build and ship the products cheaper because they have no export cost to the US then there is a serious issue. This is the exact reason to put the foot down on the evasion techniques of the Chinese imports. I am completely aware or the ramifications of some of the companies but it seems to be as far as this debate goes China has other source and consumer chains but we do not?

    Do you think it will stop with the US if they did bankrupt us? My side view is telling me to mention how odd it is that other countries that are playing by the tax and tariff rules and paying their fare aren't more proactively involved with reeling china back in out of the clouds.
    You focus on tax and tariff when the primary reason they make our goods is because their labor costs are extremely low. This won't change whatever you do with tax and tariffs unless you make imports so insanely expensive that our inflation would go through the roof while we basically cede the entire world market outside the US to foreign companies willing to use Chinese labor. Products like the Apple iPad would then be overpriced and not competitive in the world market.

    The simple world that responds positively to your solutions of closing off the US to foreign imports in an all out trade war no longer exists if it ever did.

  22. #52

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    The simple world that responds positively to your solutions of closing off the US to foreign imports in an all out trade war no longer exists if it ever did.

    Simple world eh?....

  23. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by SDA1C View Post
    I figured this was coming sooner or later.

    We are no more debt ridden towards China than they are obligated to pay our import tariffs. Simply put. "You no paya the tariff we no paya the debt"

    You speak of them handling a boycott better than us. If it was a direct boycott..yes I believe you are correct. But like you say they aren't our friends and all fair right. How about we crash a few of their critical goods markets like Taiwan or Korea. Or god forbid we dump India and the middle east on their arrogant asses and stop sending them food. Where does China get their fuel now that nobody can feed the the sand rich countries that produce ALL the fuel china consumes.

    The fact is we the good ol' US of A is one of the only top producing countries that can sustain its self if we simply close the doors. China most certainly cannot survive if we crush their suppliers by no longer feeding or protecting them.
    News flash. We don't make stuff anymore. The ramp up to start making
    stuff takes time. And skilled people. I used to do industrial automation
    before it fell from favor. The current crop of youth don't have the skillsets
    to do it. And the people who do are old. Take a quick look around the
    rust belt, and the people and places are no longer there.
    Most of my current employer's products are made in Asia. They don't have anybody left who would have a clue how to build the stuff.
    A lot heavy maintenance for airlines is done in China.
    Like it or not, we need them and many other Asian countries.
    Where do you think Polk speakers come from?
    "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson

  24. #54

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    Where do you think Polk speakers come from?

    Mine came from Baltimore.

  25. #55

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    Interesting comments on this page, some I agree to,some not so much. In any event, the general opinion seems to be something is f$#ked up in the way we deal with china, yet not a one of our elected officials see's a problem. That alone is a problem. Maybe it's time to have actual buisness men running the show instead of politicians and eggheads.

  26. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by SDA1C View Post
    Where do you think Polk speakers come from?

    Mine came from Baltimore.
    So do one pair of mine, but they are 22 years old. The next pairs I bought came from Mexico, and the last pair, and all current models come fron China. Polk has no manufacturing facilities here anymore.

  27. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyb View Post
    not a one of our elected officials see's a problem.
    They won't, as long as our government's runaway spending depends on it. Our government right now is arguing over increasing the debt over a trillion dollars just to get them through the next election cycle. And the only thing they disagree on is what to PROMISE to cut some time in the COMING years and how much to raise taxes NOW. When you "need" to borrow money you don't have, the last person you want to drive out of business is your banker.

    Our government is broke, we are in the middle of a recession where the few very successful companies like Apple are completely dependent on Chinese labor to stay in business, and our current political climate embraces new debt while attacking "big business" and individual success as something that needs to be taxed, EPA'd, and regulated to redistribute the wealth to fund public spending. And the huge entitlements are destined for a cliff because the baby boomers are retiring.

    IMHO, until the US gets its own house in order, it can't possibly hope to fight the Chinese to a level playing field as distracted and divided as we are within our own borders.
    Last edited by cheddar; 07-24-2011 at 12:41 PM.

  28. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by cheddar View Post
    They won't, as long as our government's runaway spending depends on it. Our government right now is arguing over increasing the debt over a trillion dollars just to get them through the next election cycle. And the only thing they disagree on is what to PROMISE to cut some time in the COMING years and how much to raise taxes NOW. When you "need" to borrow money you don't have, the last person you want to drive out of business is your banker.

    Our government is broke, we are in the middle of a recession where the few very successful companies like Apple are completely dependent on Chinese labor to stay in business, and our current political climate embraces new debt while attacking "big business" and individual success as something that needs to be taxed, EPA'd, and regulated to redistribute the wealth to fund public spending. And the huge entitlements are destined for a cliff because the baby boomers are retiring.

    IMHO, until the US gets its own house in order, it can't possibly hope to fight the Chinese to a level playing field as distracted and divided as we are within our own borders.
    To get our own house in order, there's some bitter pills to swallow, on both sides, and ala Greece, no politician wants that, so kick the can down the road I fear is the solution that will be presented. Thats why you need buisness people who frankly won't pander to the whims of every crying organization that wants hand outs. Simply taxing more,taking more money out of the private sector to support runaway spending is not a plan.
    Regardless, I think there's a bigger worldwide crunch comming, just too much debt out there globally.

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    Pretty good spammer, eh? Reported, nonetheless.
    Last edited by Kenneth Swauger; 06-19-2013 at 07:32 AM.

  30. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by sucks2beme View Post
    Big picture- we are the consumers, They are the producers.
    Yup. If no one purchased it, they wouldn't make it.

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