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  1. #91

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    Well, I'm thinking it might help as maybe you guys will identify with some of the things I'm observing--

    Source: Squeezebox Touch/CIA Power Supply
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  2. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by nspindel View Post
    I'd advise that you go into your player settings, and under Audio, set Volume Control to "Output level is fixed at 100%"

    I would also advise that you use wired ethernet between your Touch and your router.
    I did the 100% volume selection already.

    Running "wired" is a non-starter. If that's a condition of good sound, the Touch will have to go.

    Source: Squeezebox Touch/CIA Power Supply
    DAC: Benchmark DAC/PRE
    Linestage: Placette RVC Passive
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  3. #93

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    I have found absolutely no need to run wired. Now a poor performing or old wireless router can cause some issues, I have only noticed it with my ROKU player, not ever with the SQB. Any modern wireless router should be fine unless you are on the fringe of of it's range.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

  4. #94

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    From all the research I've done, it's a condition for getting the Touch to sound as good as it possibly can. That doesn't necessarily mean that you can't be pleased with how it sounds over wifi, but from the standpoint of eeking out every bit of sq possible, it's a recommended best practice.

    Definitely a non-starter? I went and strung up my whole house with wired ethernet several years ago, so I'm spoiled. But I've got about 30 ethernet devices in my home, including hi-def video streaming.

    There's really no way for you to get a wire from your stereo to where your router is?
    Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance.

  5. #95

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    In fact I want to put my music server computer down in the lower-level and run wireless USB to my wireless router and then wireless to the SQB. Right now my 2nd computer is tethered via Ethernet to my wireless router. It's older and the fan noise in my office is annoying so having it in the semi-finished basement would be a plus. I am still experimenting with running it USB wireless to my router.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

  6. #96

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    Ok, here's some initial impressions. Keep in mind this is a new unit with only 5 hours on it. Wireless/flac, into my DAC with a coaxial cable (DH Labs D-75).

    The format I use goes like this; As I'm listening I have a notepad, I write down quick "words" that describe something I'm hearing. I later attach my full thought to why I used that "word." Straight from my notes (in order)---and the meanings:

    Toslink: The sound reminds me of running toslink. bass is firm and deep, treble somewhat "rounded" black background.

    Missing link?: Touch has an analog-like character to it's sound. Not at all harsh. A "full bodied" sound character that reminds me of vinyl.

    Rythm/pace: excellent. great flow of the music.

    Who's the hero?: This comment comes from me thinking, is the excellent delineation/detail of subtleties a result of music on a hard drive--or the result of something the Touch is doing. I suspect the former.

    Veil: Slightly heavier mid bass, a bit of a veiled upper mid range. Treble is real nice, albeit also slightly veiled. Mid-range seems to be set back in the speaker in presenation, and somewhat "muddy" on complex music.

    Keep in mind all comparisons would be made in relation to my CEC/DAC combo.

    Any of these observations ringing true with any of you guys?
    Last edited by steveinaz; 11-18-2011 at 10:15 AM.

    Source: Squeezebox Touch/CIA Power Supply
    DAC: Benchmark DAC/PRE
    Linestage: Placette RVC Passive
    Power Amp: Parasound HCA-1500A
    Speakers: Harbeth Compact 7ES-3 Monitor
    Subwoofer: SVS PB12-NSD

  7. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    I have found absolutely no need to run wired. Now a poor performing or old wireless router can cause some issues, I have only noticed it with my ROKU player, not ever with the SQB. Any modern wireless router should be fine unless you are on the fringe of of it's range.

    H9
    It's not about the networking aspect. It's about eliminating the use of the wifi radio inside the Touch, as well as the power it consumes.
    Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance.

  8. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by nspindel View Post
    From all the research I've done, it's a condition for getting the Touch to sound as good as it possibly can. That doesn't necessarily mean that you can't be pleased with how it sounds over wifi, but from the standpoint of eeking out every bit of sq possible, it's a recommended best practice.

    Definitely a non-starter? I went and strung up my whole house with wired ethernet several years ago, so I'm spoiled. But I've got about 30 ethernet devices in my home, including hi-def video streaming.

    There's really no way for you to get a wire from your stereo to where your router is?
    Honestly I've tried it both ways and I hear no difference. And running it wired, for me, defeats part of the purpose. If it were detriment to sound quality for me I'd certainly consider running it wired, but I have seen nothing in print or best of all heard nothing detrimental so I'm not going to bother with it.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

  9. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by steveinaz View Post
    Any of these observations ringing true with any of you guys?
    In all honesty, I can't answer that. Observations like these assume you are comparing to something else, and noting the differences. I haven't had a cd player in my stereo in about 8 years. I was using HTPC for a while, and then jumped to Squeezebox before SlimDevices was even bought by Logitech. I really don't have any basis of comparison.
    Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance.

  10. #100

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    In my previous setup there was just a slight difference between wireless and wired with my SBT. IMHO wired produced just a bit more dynamic sound. I would opt for wired if possible, but don't believe it's a show-stopper to use wireless. I think you have to do a mod to shut off the wireless radio in the SBT.
    DKG999
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  11. #101

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    The one area I noticed the most improvement was the things you listed under "Veil". Many of these things improved with the addition of the Welborne Labs supply. I'd say the muddiness, veiled midrange and treble improved markedly with the PS upgrade, bass extension as well. Before the PS upgrade the bass sort of seemed to fall off a shelf. After the PS upgrade the bass was large wave that seemed to roll off more naturally, rather than abruptly being cut short. I haven't used a cdp in about 5 years so I can't say about what or what did not improve when I switched. I can say if the SQB II wasn't up to it back then, I would never have stayed with it.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

  12. #102

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    Now to address the "dual personality" comment;

    The Touch/HDD combo is STELLAR at retrieving detail--small, tiny, subtle details that I notice right away, and liked very much. There's an up/down side to music that is "full-bodied" the up: it's very satisfying in a visceral manner. The down: It can come off as veiled/rolled off, muddy at times. I can understand the appeal of "Hard Drive" based music. I think it can sound better than an optical drive--at least I believe the potential is there, if the transport can deliver.

    The "Ah-ha" moment:

    Some of the things Bev said, as to why she felt the Touch was inferior to the CD player were "scary" close to my exact thoughts. Take it for what it's worth.
    Last edited by steveinaz; 11-18-2011 at 10:30 AM.

    Source: Squeezebox Touch/CIA Power Supply
    DAC: Benchmark DAC/PRE
    Linestage: Placette RVC Passive
    Power Amp: Parasound HCA-1500A
    Speakers: Harbeth Compact 7ES-3 Monitor
    Subwoofer: SVS PB12-NSD

  13. #103

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    Your notes Steve are very close to my own when comparing to a decent redbook cdp. Also, I am in the same boat listening to my cdp I know all the subtle changes. Still working on it though so a final thought is yet to come on digital downloads verse a good cdp. It is however close, and the convenience factor is worth giving up a tad in SQ. Still I want it better for critical listening, and if changing dacs, cables, formats, is what I have to do, I will, eventually.

    Don't know about the SB radio, but I enjoy the radio on my Sonos, from just about every country on the planet. I wouldn't get rid of it if radio is something you listen to even slightly.

  14. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    Before the PS upgrade the bass sort of seemed to fall off a shelf. After the PS upgrade the bass was large wave that seemed to roll off more naturally, rather than abruptly being cut short.
    H9
    Exactly, a very "toslink" sounding bass. It comes off as very tight/flat, but you're not quite sure if it's "accuracy" or simply "lack of" bass extension. This tonal signature didn't bother me much, as the room was still energized during rolling bass notes--very cool.

    Source: Squeezebox Touch/CIA Power Supply
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    Linestage: Placette RVC Passive
    Power Amp: Parasound HCA-1500A
    Speakers: Harbeth Compact 7ES-3 Monitor
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  15. #105

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    Having said all that, let me say this: The Touch is an excellent device when considering the conveneince factor---I'm being pretty damn picky with it, and maybe expecting too much; but it is LEAPS and BOUNDS beyond anything else such as XM, Sirius, Internet radio (played via other means), IPOD docks (yuk) etc, etc. It's entirely in a different league.
    Last edited by steveinaz; 11-18-2011 at 10:38 AM.

    Source: Squeezebox Touch/CIA Power Supply
    DAC: Benchmark DAC/PRE
    Linestage: Placette RVC Passive
    Power Amp: Parasound HCA-1500A
    Speakers: Harbeth Compact 7ES-3 Monitor
    Subwoofer: SVS PB12-NSD

  16. #106

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    Your description of the "full-bodied" details, a lot of that goes away with the Welborne PS. Somewhere I started a thread about the Welborne PS when I added or maybe it was the Bolder Modded ELPAC (essentially the same thing and parts, etc).

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

  17. #107

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    Use it as is until the Elves finish the Welborne and then see if some of the "down side" isn't alleviated. It is one mod I can't stress enough and will make a noticeable improvement based on the level of your gear you should notice it right away, like I did.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

  18. #108

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    And of course, remember that the Welborne will benefit from running a good power cord. I use a Signal Magic Digital with mine.
    Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance.

  19. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by nspindel View Post
    And of course, remember that the Welborne will benefit from running a good power cord. I use a Signal Magic Digital with mine.
    I use an MIT Z cord, so yes I agree 100%
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

  20. #110

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    Also guys, keep in mind I'm NOT looking for convenience--per se, other than the element of having all my music available at the touch of a button (pun intended). I'm not looking to "network" my house with this stuff, and I'm not fearing the demise of the silver disc, so preparing by going all software with my media. I'm looking to replace a very good transport (I gain more respect for it everyday); so compromises, even teeny-tiny ones, won't get past these ears. IOW, I'm not cutting the Touch an ounce of slack, nor will I make any excuses for it or my observations. That should actually speak well of this device. Furthermore, I'll go thru a ton of inconvenience, for just a little bit better sound---so you understand my priorities.

    The listening continues, I AM NOT giving up the ship yet.
    Last edited by steveinaz; 11-18-2011 at 10:58 AM.

    Source: Squeezebox Touch/CIA Power Supply
    DAC: Benchmark DAC/PRE
    Linestage: Placette RVC Passive
    Power Amp: Parasound HCA-1500A
    Speakers: Harbeth Compact 7ES-3 Monitor
    Subwoofer: SVS PB12-NSD

  21. #111

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    Steve - you must network your house and be assimilated
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  22. #112

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    I wasn't looking to "network" my house either, but having a wireless radio up stairs which is then portable to take out on the deck (battery pack option) has proven to be off the charts convenient. I have come to hate spinning up those little silver discs anymore. Again I am pretty uncompromising in fidelity, perhaps willing to give up just a tiny ounce of SQ for convenience, but honestly I don't think I am and in the grand scheme, if I was, it's so miniscule as not to really matter.

    I also know you understand that different isn't necessarily bad or wrong. It's just different from your norm. The question then becomes can you live with the differences. I have these issues with tubes and I/C's and in the end most of the differences I came to love. In fact one of the reasons I like rolling tubes so much is variety of subtle sound changes you can make and still enjoy different sounds. I have found no other device in audio that subtley changes the soundscape as well as a different tube while still making listening 100% enjoyable at each change.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

  23. #113

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    Brock, you sprang for the battery pack, eh? I have't brought myself to drop the coin for it.

    Using it outdoors rocks though. I have speakers outside on one end of my deck that are connected to my whole-house amp with my SB3. I've also brought the Boom outside and placed it on the other side of the deck and sync'ed the Boom and the SB3, works perfectly. I had a party one time where I had a bunch of people outside, and I had the Boom/SB3 combo sync'ed together, and was controlling it from iPeng on my iPhone. Blew people away with that setup, let me tell you...
    Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance.

  24. #114

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    Exactly Brock, the Touch does nothing "wrong" and does alot of things very well, but so far it's tonal character is a little different from what I'm used to. It's like the chicken and egg thing, which source is being more accurate? I don't know, because I wasn't at the recording studio when they cut the record. But I do know what appeals to me, and that is the REAL bitch about opinions on equipment---our own expectations, and of course system synergy. I'm just passing along what I hear, in relation to what was my source, so apply a grain of salt.

    Source: Squeezebox Touch/CIA Power Supply
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    Linestage: Placette RVC Passive
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    Subwoofer: SVS PB12-NSD

  25. #115

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    Tonight I'm going to configure the server to decode the flac, and see what differences that might bring. I'll also A/B it with the CEC transport, to make sure my ears aren't just on the "fritz" or something. I want to be as fair as possible to the unit. Again, Bev's comments were very "telling" as I usually blame my lame ass hearing when I "think" I detect tonal changes.

    Here's the connection scheme:

    SQB Touch-->1mtr DH Labs D-75-->Benchmark DAC-->.5mtr Kimber Hero-->Placette Passive-->.5mtr Kimber Hero-->Parasound HCA-1500-->Kimber 8TC-->Carbon 7's.

    Benchmark is in "line-out" DAC mode. This is identical to the CEC's connection scheme.
    Last edited by steveinaz; 11-18-2011 at 11:30 AM.

    Source: Squeezebox Touch/CIA Power Supply
    DAC: Benchmark DAC/PRE
    Linestage: Placette RVC Passive
    Power Amp: Parasound HCA-1500A
    Speakers: Harbeth Compact 7ES-3 Monitor
    Subwoofer: SVS PB12-NSD

  26. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by steveinaz View Post
    Tonight I'm going to configure the server to decode the flac, and see what differences that might bring. I'll also A/B it with the CEC transport, to make sure my ears aren't just on the "fritz" or something. I want to be as fair as possible to the unit. Again, Bev's comments were very "telling" as I usually blame my lame ass hearing when I "think" I detect tonal changes.
    If I'm not mistaken, I think you need to stop/start the service in order for those changes to take effect. Can't remember 100% though.
    Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance.

  27. #117

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    I'll do a re-start just to be on the safe side.

    Do any of you guys have a DVD/BluRay/CD player also connected where you can A/B to see if we have any observations in common?
    Last edited by steveinaz; 11-18-2011 at 11:37 AM.

    Source: Squeezebox Touch/CIA Power Supply
    DAC: Benchmark DAC/PRE
    Linestage: Placette RVC Passive
    Power Amp: Parasound HCA-1500A
    Speakers: Harbeth Compact 7ES-3 Monitor
    Subwoofer: SVS PB12-NSD

  28. #118

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    Nope!
    Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance.

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    You still have a lot of evaluating and listening to do. Thanks for the first impressions and don't give up until you get a linear power supply.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

  30. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by steveinaz View Post
    I'll do a re-start just to be on the safe side.

    Do any of you guys have a DVD/BluRay/CD player also connected where you can A/B to see if we have any observations in common?
    My DVDp player is hooked to my dac as well. I can certainly try to do some comparo's. It won't be very timely however, since I am so dang busy at work. But I will try to set aside some time in the next couple weeks to do a comparison. I did this before years ago by queuing up both sources and A/Bing.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

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