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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by neilprague View Post
    Thanks, DK. I can't find the peak current figures offhand though apparently peak wattage for the P10 is 1750W and 900W for the amp. I can see your reasoning here, though I've checked the load level when playing the end of Mahler 8 at a volume which could get me evicted from the neighbourhood, and the load never gets above 43 or possibly 44%. Most the time the clicks occur when I'm playing a Mozart concerto pretty quietly.
    The load meter does not react fast enough to register musical transients, which can demand large amounts of current and which last only thousandths of a second. Such transients can occur very frequently in music, particularly if the recording is very dynamic.

    You really need to find out the peak current capacity of your amp and the European version P10. For example, my Parasound Halo JC 1 monoblock amps are capable of 135 amps peak current. This is almost double the 70 amp capacity of the P10. Some amplifiers, like the JC 1, simply can't be run off the P10. I have two Adcom GFA-5500 amps running off a single P10 in my home theater system and it handles them fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by neilprague View Post
    I very much appreciate the trouble you've taken and I feel rather bad that your efforts may well be in vain. It is good to know that there are people out there who are good-hearted enough to give up their time to help with these things. If you're interested I'll let you know what I decide to do about the P10, but I'm sure you've had more than enough of me already.
    It's no bother, really. I would like to know what you find out about your P10. It would be helpful information. You never know when someone else will experience the same issue(s). I hope this is quickly resolved for you.
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
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  2. #32

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    I'll try to chase these figures down. They're not given in the specs in the instruction manuals, and as the amp's old it may take a while, assuming I can find the information at all. What you suggest would certainly explain what I've been experiencing, and if this is the case it's a pity that PS Audio don't (as far as I know) emphasise or even mention peak current capacity as an important factor when choosing a regenerator. I reasonably assumed I'd have no problems as the power consumption of my entire system is less than half of the P10's maximum output and it never occurred to me that there might be other factors involved.

    I'm not one to throw the baby out with the bathwater but obviously I'm better off without the P10 if it can't cope with my power amp. I bought it specifically because I wanted a unit that would accommodate my entire system and if I really can't use my power amp with it, then I guess I'll have to accept that.

    Anyway, thanks again for your time and keep up the good work!

    Neil

  3. #33

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    If it turns out that your amp's peak current spec is well within the peak current capacity of the P10, I suggest having the amp checked to make sure it is operating within spec. I recall you mentioning that you have an older tube amp.

    Good luck with everything.
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
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  4. #34

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    Update: I owe you that after the time you've spent replying to me. I've solved the P10 clicking problem at last.

    That's because I've taken up my dealer's offer and decided to ditch the P10.

    I'll admit to being something of a grumpy old bugger. I have zero tolerance for nuisance noise and I'll be the first to complain about antisocial construction work or a neighbour's barking dog. At least those noises haven't cost me 4000 pounds. I do rather resent it when I have introduced something into my system to improve the sound, and I end up needing an extra dose of blood pressure pills as the item I've introduced makes obnoxious noises that get me seriously angry.

    I have had my power amp for 18 years and yes, that is old. So maybe you're right, that there is some way the amp falls outside the specs of the P10. But, the power amp has been one of the most reliable and enjoyable things in my life for a long time, and given a choice between 18 years of excellent service and a new item that's basically given me nothing but trouble, I know which one has to go.

    I have spent the last few days listening intently to my system without the P10 and yes, it is noticeable that the sound does seem to be better at some times than others, as it was before I bought the P10. But that's a small price to pay for removing an intrusive noise that was completely ruining my listening enjoyment.

    The last thing I want to do is to come over as aggressive to you, DK. You're obviously a decent guy and you've done nothing other than to try to help. I'm certainly not having a go at you - it's not your fault that PS Audio, well-meaning and nice people though they are, aren't yet quite up there with the big boys like Audio Research or Martin Logan. PS need to admit that there is a design fault with one of their flagship products - I'm not the only one to experience this - and do something about it.

    I'd seriously recommend that anyone thinking of buying one of these gets, if possible, a good long demo period. The P10 may well work superbly in your system and if so, great. But keep an ear out for clicks from the unit and if you get them, stay away.

    Lest I give the impression that I set all this up to write a "shill" review, I'd like to dispel that impression. I have no vested interest and certainly am not recommending any alternative product. As far as I know, PS Audio lead the (rather narrow, at present) field in mains regenerators. I am simply stating that as things stand the P10 is, in my opinion, not quite satisfactory.

    All the best

    Neil

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by neilprague View Post
    PS need to admit that there is a design fault with one of their flagship products
    How did you determine that it's a design fault?

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drenis View Post
    How did you determine that it's a design fault?
    In all other respects the unit works fine and does what it's supposed to. I have been told by the manufacturer that the clicking noise the P10 makes is the internal mechanism responding to mains distortion or change in voltage or some other factor it doesn't like. Fair enough - it's got a job to do and it's doing it. The problem is that it carries out its task noisily to the point that it is an irritant. Had the unit been designed so that the the internal mechanism operates quietly, there would be no problem. That's why I call it a design fault.

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by neilprague View Post
    In all other respects the unit works fine and does what it's supposed to. I have been told by the manufacturer that the clicking noise the P10 makes is the internal mechanism responding to mains distortion or change in voltage or some other factor it doesn't like. Fair enough - it's got a job to do and it's doing it. The problem is that it carries out its task noisily to the point that it is an irritant. Had the unit been designed so that the the internal mechanism operates quietly, there would be no problem. That's why I call it a design fault.
    But you have no proof that the protection circuit simply failed (for what, could be a few reasons) or may have been a single unit with a bad protection circuit installed or something else... Such as dirty power fluctuating outside of safe boundaries for the unit to operate.

    You need to investigate whether or not your have a power issue, a faulty unit or if it acts as a result of some sort of failure cause by...? You're jumping to conclusions. Not only that, but I have done my fair share of reading with this brand. It's not cheap crap. Look into it more.

  8. #38

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    While i could never afford one. I do understand Neils point. For that kind of money, it should operate dead quiet considering what its used for. Also, he never implied it was cheap crap.

  9. #39

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    Thank you Chumlie, your reply states exactly the point I'm making. I'll just add that I have been trying to get a resolution to this since May, and that has included fairly extensive correspondence with the PS Audio techs. Six months on, I am nowhere nearer to solving the problem. I'm sorry, but I have simply had enough and given up. Life's too short.

    I apologise if I have trodden on any toes here. That was not my intention, and if my posts have seemed hostile or provocative it is just a result of my frustration. The P10 obviously works well for some people - that's great. It doesn't for me, so let's agree to differ and move on.

    Neil

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drenis View Post
    You need to investigate whether or not your have a power issue, a faulty unit or if it acts as a result of some sort of failure cause by...? You're jumping to conclusions. Not only that, but I have done my fair share of reading with this brand. It's not cheap crap. Look into it more.
    Quote Originally Posted by chumlie View Post
    While i could never afford one. I do understand Neils point. For that kind of money, it should operate dead quiet considering what its used for. Also, he never implied it was cheap crap.
    Chumlie, this is somewhat like saying that, for the money you pay for a 400 series Lexus, the ride should be perfectly smooth and quiet. However, the ride won't be perfectly smooth and quiet if you are riding on a rutted gravel road. Such a road exceeds the design parameters of the Lexus. No amount of "resolution" from Lexus can solve the issue of a noisy, bumpy ride due to poor road conditions.

    Quote Originally Posted by neilprague View Post
    Thank you Chumlie, your reply states exactly the point I'm making. I'll just add that I have been trying to get a resolution to this since May, and that has included fairly extensive correspondence with the PS Audio techs. Six months on, I am nowhere nearer to solving the problem. I'm sorry, but I have simply had enough and given up. Life's too short.

    I apologise if I have trodden on any toes here. That was not my intention, and if my posts have seemed hostile or provocative it is just a result of my frustration. The P10 obviously works well for some people - that's great. It doesn't for me, so let's agree to differ and move on.
    Neil, I assure you no toes were stepped on and I did not infer hostility from your comments. We were just offering suggestions to remedy your issue.

    Drenis makes a good point. In fairness to PS Audio, they cannot anticipate every situation that might occur everywhere in the world with every type of power amplifier. I specifically mentioned that the P10 cannot properly power one of my JC 1 monoblocks and that the P10 promptly shuts down if I connect two of them. This is not a design flaw. The JC 1's simply require more peak current than the P10 can provide. Indeed, Parasound explicitly told me that I would need a commercial grade regenerator to supply the peak current demands of the JC 1. On the PS Audio forums, there is feedback from other P10 owners about other power amps not working with the P10.

    As I suggested previously, the peak current demands of Neil's amp and the peak current capability of the European P10 is essential information. Without knowing this, we are "shooting in the dark".

    From what Neil described, the protection circuitry only activates when music is playing and the regenerator never disengages. This indicates to me that there is some interaction between your power amp and the P10 that the P10 does not like. There may also be power line issues. This also indicates to me that the problem is not serious enough for the protection circuitry to fully activate and disengage the regenerator and require the P10 to be reset.

    Since Neil was unwilling, or unable, to investigate other avenues for contributing causes, I agree that the best solution in his case was to return the P10.
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  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post


    Drenis makes a good point. In fairness to PS Audio, they cannot anticipate every situation that might occur everywhere in the world with every type of power amplifier.

    This......along with any other manufacturer.

  12. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    I have two Adcom GFA-5500 amps running off a single P10 in my home theater system and it handles them fine.
    I misspoke here...I actually have threee Adcom GFA-5500 power amps (350 wpc into 4 ohms) running off a single P10 in my home theater system (power amps for center, front and surround channels), in addition to a Blu-ray player, analog preamp, digital preamp/processor, tuner and CD player. A P5 handles the plasma television and Tivo.
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  13. #43

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    Thanks for the info. This is very interesting because I'm in the process searching for clean power for my new hifi system with an Audio Research VSi60 integrated tube amplifier. How does the P5/P10 compare to online/double conversion UPS backups that generate a clean sign wave at the output? I'm specifically thinking of the Eaton EX1500, which is about 1/4th the price of a P10 but with the same power output. Thanks. -Stuart

  14. #44

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    I also found this extremely interesting. The fact that a guy in Prague is having problems w/ a unit and DK and others are here to try to help him out is fantastic. DK and PS audio calls these devices AC regenerators, are they still under the more common name of power conditioners like Panamax,Monster, and Belkins?1 other point and I guess it's great buisness sense is to make models compatible w/ voltages of other countries.Most use 230v and the only other gear I personally ever saw to do this was Bose. When installing their Acoutimass Lifestyle 30s/or 50s they had a switch to convert from 110 v to 230 and a transformer to match.I just use a Samson 9outlet surge strip w/a large on/off lit rocker switch w/ a an amount joule protection that escapes me now and I know it really is not a conditioner at all.
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  15. #45

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    LW, power strips do nothing but offer some spike protection, little at that too. Power conditioners do more to clean up the signal and remove line noise while offering a greater line surge or spike protection. Power regenerators do what most conditioners do and keep the line voltage constant so you don't have dips. Some may even store that power. Different brands do different things in their own ways, but lower level power conditioners from mass marketed box stores are usually all the same.....all the same technology.

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    I have one of the higher end Panamax's and it works great, but I have been looking hard at the PS Audio's and Furman's, more on the PS's then the others..
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  17. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by leftwinger57 View Post
    DK and PS audio calls these devices AC regenerators, are they still under the more common name of power conditioners like Panamax,Monster, and Belkins?
    An AC regenerator is not a conditioner. Conditioners take power from the wall and filter it to remove noise. A regenerator takes power from the wall, converts it to DC, then regenerates a new sine wave with much lower noise and distortion and with a more stable voltage level.

    An analogy would be the difference between adding conditioner to a head full of damaged hair or cutting all the damaged hair off and growing a new healthy head of hair.
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
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