Why so much SVS bashing...

**Grimster74** · 10-06-2003 09:16 AM

I figured I'd post on all the SVS bashing going on the last couple of days. My whole thought process on this whole situation is this, it seems for the most part, a majority of the people posting these threads have not seen let alone even heard a SVS sub, so why does everyone keep getting so pissed off about the whole thing. Think about this folks, the people on this forum, Kberg, faster100, HBombToo, Dr. Spec. and myself (I may have missed a couple people, these are the one's that stick out) can honestly say SVS KICKS ASS. Take a look over at the AVS forum, do you guys see anyone saying, "I wish I'd never bought this ****ty SVS sub" HELL NO, most of them say the same damn thing I said, "Best damn $1200 bucks I spent", and some have bought 2 of them. Hell, I'd was thinking about ordering another PB2+ and then I relized, I havn't even come close to the full potential of what I can do with just one PB2+ subwoofer.

Granted, I don't have $20,000 tied up in my H/T like some of the people on this forum, and one day I might, but for $8200+/-, neighbors 150 yards away know every time I'm watching a movie. So, for the people that have never seen or heard a SVS, like the Doc said one time before, anytime anyone of you are in the Fredericksburg, Virginia area, look me up, I'm always open to pissing the neighbors off.

And as for Redhouse, granted, I know he claims his post was a joke, but that **** was just not funny. My invitation is especially open to you to stop but me crib. I PROMISE, when you leave my house, you WILL go home with your tail tucked between your legs knowing you have been DEFEATED. Nothing against you Redhouse, hell for all I know you may have already heard a SVS sub, but have you heard one in a room with great acoustics and everything dialed in properly. Once again, its an open invitation for everyone to stop by, the liquor cabinet is always full as for the frig. down stairs.

Here is the link to the AVS forum:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forum...hp?forumid=89,

with 87,753 views, and over 1500 replies, show me one reply that says they dislike they're SVS, if so, they're propally yanking someones crank. So, "Don't knock it, till you've tried it"

I'm out of here.

**faster100** · 10-06-2003 09:31 AM

Very well said, I noticed the bash fest lately as well,, To each his own what ya like. But that doesnt make it bad cause we like it.

Like the Rti150's.. get a bad rap. Try em and see.. again to each his own,

Great post!

**HBombToo** · 10-06-2003 10:55 AM

Ya know... when I first bought my dual SVS system it was for a room that was more than 6000 ft^3 and the I was never so happy. Then I moved the family and the new theater is about 2200 ft^3 and corner loaded and let me tell you that if you need a good foot massage, hang out on the second floor:D

The system I have purchased is more than I could have hoped for. I am satisfied with my purchase and there is no way anyone can convince me otherwise. If an individual does not agree that SVS manufactures world class subs that is also fine with me. I like what I like and appreciate my hobby for what it is... "A Hobby" No stress nor mess!

HBomb

**Dr. Spec** · 10-06-2003 01:39 PM

You may have noticed I refused to post to the "other" thread, and with good reason. It has been moved to the Hall Of Shame, as I expected.

Like I said before, SVS is the new kid on the block (4 years running isn't exactly a new company anymore, though), the owners are giving raves reviews, and the product is generating all sorts of excitement. For those that jump on the bandwagon by purchasing an SVS, all this can only be viewed as a huge positive.

For those that already own a sub - particularly if it was quite expensive and has excellent reviews - all the SVS hype typically generates quite understandable feelings of sub envy, purchase regret, and purchase justification. This phenomenon manifests itself in the form of posts and threads like "SVS Ain't All That", "My Sub Kills SVS", "SVS Can't Possibly Compete With Brand X", ad nauseum.

There is nothing magical or mystical about the SVS design. They are 4th order vented subwoofers that are tuned much deeper than typical commerical offerings and employ extremely high quality woofers, build components, and electronics. The devil is in the details, though - as the designer (Tom V) spends a huge amount of R&D to ensure the FR is near ruler flat in ground plane testing, and also that the drivers display extremely low THD and IMD and handle huge amounts of power with great thermal, motor strength, and excursion characteristics.

So you have a sub that plays flatter, cleaner, louder, and lower than the typical competition. Then you sell it for a modest profit with no mark-up or middle man at a price that makes big OEMs turn over in their graves. And you back it up with the best CS in the industry.

That's the SVS business ethic. A great product, a great price, and unbeatable CS. THAT'S why people are buying SVS in droves.

Doc

**kberg** · 10-07-2003 02:08 PM

Here's my take...

- Did I feel the need to upgrade my $250 100w Infinity BU2 sub purchased who knows how many years ago? Yes

- Did I listen to 15 subs (or more) before deciding to get an SVS? No, not a one, partly due to the fact that I think it's pointless to perform this task anywhere but in my own home, which would of course require a purchase beforehand.

- Did I ever hear of SVS before joining this forum? No

- Did I trust the countless positive reviews and comments of Polk forum members that just purchased an SVS sub, or had one (or more) for quite some time? Yes

- Did I take a cost-effective/apples to apples approach in looking into what SVS had to offer compared to comments I heard from others regarding other excellent subs out there? Absolutely

- Did my decision to buy an SVS partly due to the fact that they have an excellent return policy, if not completely satisfied? Yep

- Did my decision to buy an SVS partly due to the fact that they have unmatched PRE-PURCHASE customer service? Yes

- Did I do backflips after receiving, hooking up and testing out my 20-39 PC+? You bet!

- Will I highly recommend SVS to others interested in upgrading their sub? I think that's a no-brainer at this point!

KB

**Grimster74** · 10-07-2003 02:52 PM

See, this is a prime example of what I am talking about. You see, there are no negative comments about SVS's in this thread, or any other SVS threads. Need we say more.

**dcarlson** · 10-07-2003 03:25 PM

Well...., if you believe the hype. You have to believe a backlash will occur. I'm not a sub guy, but backlashes occur. Subs, Speakers, cables, components, you name it. Someone will always crap on something.

Are you happy with your purchase? I'm guessing yes, so who cares what others say. :)

There's obviously a lot SVS support here and if I ever venture down the road of higher end of subs, I'll give SVS serious consideration. Most people will likely see through unsubstantiated bashing.

**gidrah** · 10-07-2003 03:40 PM

I'm pretty sure that most bashing is in jest, the rest are from idjits that don't like them just for the sake of being a noncomformist.

**dorokusai** · 10-07-2003 04:26 PM

Does anyone know if Porn sounds better with an SVS??

I was sold on SVS ages ago, due simply to the forum.

**Dr. Spec** · 10-07-2003 05:31 PM

Originally posted by dorokusai
Does anyone know if Porn sounds better with an SVS??

Yeah, the money shots really shake the room - it's amazing.

**danielyu** · 10-08-2003 02:08 PM

I totally agree with kberg. I just received my 20-39PC+, and I couldn't be happier. There was bass that I've never heard before from the same soundtracks I'm used to listening. The sub goes low and loud, yet very clear. The quality of the sub is excellent, really high quality material, very well built. I was expecting good sound quality, but I didn't really expect such a high quality material used for $825. <----- if these read like the numerous reviews of SVS you've read, you are right, and they are true. As a new SVS owner, I can honestly say all the positive reviews are true.

I bought the SVS entirely based on the reviews and price. I listened to other subs in the under $1000 range, and they aren't that good. I didn't care to listen to the over $1000 subs because I don't want to pay that much. Would a $2000 sub sound better than my SVS? Probably, but do I care? NO because it's over my budget. The key is to buy the best within your budget, and I think I made the right choice.

btw, when i first read the positive reviews from ppl like Dr. Spec and others, I thought they either work for SVS or buddies with them. But I took a chance because of the return policy, and I couldn't be happier. Now do I sound like a SVS sales rep? well, maybe I should get a cut on all future SVS sales =D

**Dr. Spec** · 10-09-2003 06:18 AM

Originally posted by danielyu

There was bass that I've never heard before from the same soundtracks I'm used to listening.

The sub goes low and loud, yet very clear.

The quality of the sub is excellent, really high quality material, very well built.

As a new SVS owner, I can honestly say all the positive reviews are true.

.....I took a chance because of the return policy, and I couldn't be happier.

C'mon - we all KNOW you work for SVS. No one could be THAT happy with their subwoofer to start acting like an unpaid salesman, now could they? ;)

Glad you are loving it!! I love that model; owned it for over a year and still hear it regularly at my friend's house.

**Rotarydude** · 10-24-2003 04:22 PM

I have 20-39PC+ for a while now. I must admit, mine doesn't do what everyone's does. Mine doesn't knock down pictures from the wall, or shake things off the table. So I'm a little disappointed in that sense.

I'm running my 20-39PC+ hot, about +4 from 85db on Avia. Still can't get my house to fall apart. So I don't know what to do! the room isn't that big, 16'x18'x9' It does open up to the dinning room and kitchen, which extends maybe another 40' or so.

So what you guys think? Wrong size?

I'm just not very happy with it compared to all the ones that say their house is "falling" apart. I want mine to work just the same.

**gatemplin** · 10-24-2003 05:36 PM

First, try moving the sub around. Placement is very important as you probably already know. How big are the openings to the other rooms and how large are they?

**Rotarydude** · 10-25-2003 12:34 AM

it's about 6-7" away from the a corner of the wall...and area that opens is about 14' wide...and it opens up pretty good.

**gatemplin** · 10-25-2003 09:15 AM

Well that could be the problem. See if you can stick it in the corner although I am guessing you know that. maybe calculate the cubic footage of the rooms and give svs that info. They can tell you if the pc+ is sufficient for that size.

**Dr. Spec** · 10-25-2003 12:40 PM

Originally posted by Rotarydude

I'm running my 20-39PC+ hot, about +4 from 85db on Avia.

In addition to placement (key), Avia tends to result in weak sub calibration (don't ask unless you really want to know).

Most people find that 7-8 hot for Avia works best for HT applications. Try it and see what happends.

**Rotarydude** · 10-25-2003 06:15 PM

I use +4 because of the Ratshack +3 thru +4 variation. I am not aware of deviation from Avia. Maybe you direct me, I am also on the avsforum.

**Dr. Spec** · 10-25-2003 07:38 PM

The RS meter reads about 2 dB low on the sub rumble tone.

Avia is a true DD disc. As such it relies on the BM circuit of your AVR to direct bass to the sub.

If you have bass capable mains and are using an 80 Hz xo, the mains will see a substantial portion of the sub rumble tone, since the typical filter rate is 12 dB/octave.

When using Avia, power off your sub on the rumble tone and see how much the main (or selected surround channel) is contributing to the total SPL measurement. It is often in the 78-82 dB range if you are using 85 dB as the calibration standard.

This surround channel contribution often results in a weaker sub calibration than if you were using discrete AVR tones which do not rely on the BM circuit. Many users end around +7 or +8 (as read on the meter C-weighted slow) with Avia before they are happy.

**Rotarydude** · 10-26-2003 01:42 AM

Oh all this time I thought the ratshack was off by +3 or +4 on the meter. Okay.

And I understand what you are saying about my main speaker sub. Because every sub woofer playing it adds around +3db to the overall SPL output.

What I will do tomorrow is disconnect my two main speaker's sub. And calibrate the SVS individually to about 89-92db SPL.

Originally when I calibrated my system. I had calibrated all my speaker to 85db including the main subs, while the SVS is turned off. Than I would go back and re do the sub calibration again, but with the SVS turned on.

Would I get a very "boomy" effect if I wanted to calibrate each sub (left main, right main, and LFE) individually? Since I do have the LSi25 with the built in amp on each main speaker.

Let me know what you think.

**Dr. Spec** · 10-26-2003 06:21 AM

This complicates matters; hadn't realized you have powered mains LSi25.

I imagine your BM circuit is set to the following?

L/R mains = Large
Sub = On/Yes
All other channels = Small
High pass XO on any channels set to Small = 80Hz
SVS Filter Switch = Disable

And I understand what you are saying about my main speaker sub. Because every sub woofer playing it adds around +3db to the overall SPL output.

This is not exactly what I was saying. When you run the sub test tone for Avia, you must pick a channel and it plays the sub tone through that channel using the BM of the AVR.

The subwoofer rumble tone has stuff in the 40-80 Hz region. If the channel is set to Small (normally recommended), then the surround speakers will still see "some" of the subwoofer rumble tone if the XO is set to 80 Hz, and the subwoofer will also see "some" of the rumble tone.

If you selected L or R mains and they are set to large, you shouldn't hear anything from the SVS when you run the rumble tone for the L/R channel (confirm this please). You need to pick center or side surround to calibrate the SVS with Avia.

Anyway, I would calibrate the powered sub in the LSi separately with Avia exactly as you have done - leave the powered sub connected to the top end and run the white noise tone and then the rumble tone for L and R channels and adjust the sub accordingly, probably flat or 2 dB hot at the most. Finish LSi25 sub level adjustment by ear on a variety of music.

So back to the SVS. Pick any channel set to Small and run the sub calibration tone and try 90-92 dB on the meter as a start. Set the meter to the 90 scale on C-weighted slow to minimize jouncing.

Finally, the SVS variable phase control will need to be adjusted such that it does not compete with the full range LSi25. You may very well be running the SVS out of phase with the 25's and getting room cancellation and nulls. This is a known problem running full range towers and a sub in a HT environment.

Once you have everything calibrated and in phase, the combination of the 25's on full range and the SVS handling low passed bass and the LFE channel should be very impressive providing you have picked the best location for the sub.

**Rotarydude** · 10-26-2003 05:22 PM

Okay, I did some what of a different re-calibration...because I notice something in Avia.

Regardless if my BM is set to Small/Large on the main fronts, during the audio test I still get BASS!

So what I did this time around was to set the front main to 87 (because of the ratshack meter), than disconnect my main, and than recalibrate the SVS. Immediately I notice that the meter was all ready reading 83db ish. Turned the SVS gain about another 1/8 turn clockwise got it around 88.

I guess what was happening was that if I leave my front main connect, the OVERALL db with SVS and Front combine gave 88db.

To concurr with the new setting, I played SW: CW, chapter 3 where the flight of the star ship, hits 114db+ so did the explosion.

It has gotten louder, and I'm "okay" happy. Stuff are starting to rattle, but nothing is coming off the wall. I don't know if the SVS can really take a 92db setting....

**Dr. Spec** · 10-26-2003 06:49 PM

114 dB on the RS meter at 25 Hz (about where the flyover and explosion takes place) is actually about 119 dB true SPL considering the C-weighting and the meter inaccuracies at that frequency.

If you are hitting 114 on the meter at the seat (again, about 119 actual), you can't expect much more from a single PC+.

It is only a single 12" driver (albeit a very strong driver) and has limits.

If you are "that" bass hungry, pony up with cylinders or get a PB2+.

**glemay** · 10-26-2003 06:51 PM

Just wondering, but where do I get an Avia disc or something similar? I live in Canada.

**gatemplin** · 10-26-2003 07:58 PM

You can get them from www.amazon.com

**Rotarydude** · 10-26-2003 11:51 PM

After the new calibration, I went ahead and map the SPL from 100-20hz using the AutoSound CD with the sine waves. Any suggestions I can get a flatter responds? This is with the SVS + the 2 main LSi25. This graph is used so that I set the 30hz frequency to 80db, than use the test tone to map out the rest of the frequencies.

The Blue line represent the reading directly from the RatShack Meter, the red line represent the actual corrected SPL level.

**Dr. Spec** · 10-27-2003 06:09 AM

Originally posted by Rotarydude

Regardless if my BM is set to Small/Large on the main fronts, during the audio test I still get BASS!

But from which speaker? If you set the mains to large and run the Avia test tone on the L or R main, you should get no sound from the SVS.

Anyway, that is not a bad looking curve, but you have your share of peaks and nulls A Behringer Feedback Destroyer will work wonders here as a $120 parametric EQ. They are tough to use at first, but there is a website linked over at HTF that explains how to easily set one up and use it.

Remember, a flat curve will not sound the best to your ears. A "house curve" will, i.e. one that slightly rises as the frequency drops to compensate for your ear's lack of sensitivity at the lowest frequencies. There is also a house curve expert over at HTF always willing to help.

**Rotarydude** · 10-27-2003 10:19 AM

Okay let me explain what happened with the speakers. In the LSi25 manual, there is a "recommended" setup for daisy-chaining the LSi25 sub portion as LFE channel. I have been doing that. LFE output from receiver to R-Sub than out to L-Sub, than to the SVS.

I have since changed that prior to a new calibration. Talked to some people on IRC.

Anyhoo, the only dip that I need to cure is really at 60hz-50hz. If I can raise that, and tame 100hz a little lower I should have a pretty good rising frequency. Most of the freq is within 3-4db of each other. Which is pretty good, but when you have 6-7db that makes a different that one can hear.

Which HT forum are you referring to? AVS?

**Dr. Spec** · 10-27-2003 11:29 AM

Oh, I see. You were using the LSi25's as actual subwoofers for the LFE channel.

I thought you were simply using them as full range speakers that just happened to have a powered woofer.

I have since changed that prior to a new calibration. Talked to some people on IRC.

But now you're not doing that anymore? Sorry for the confusion on my end.

If you are still using that method, you have three sources of identical bass signal in the same room at different locations. This alone could be causing the peaks and nulls you are experiencing.

While it can be done, the more sources of identical low bass in the room, the harder it becomes to obtain a flat in-room response.

The amount of bass signal actually present in the L/R main channels varies greatly from DVD to DVD. Some have literally no bass at all, and use the LFE channel exclusively. Some have tons of bass in the surround channels, like U-571 DTS for example.

If you are using the LSi-25 bottom half as a powered sub for LFE, then setting that channel to Large is a mistake. The top half needs to be set to Small and run like an LSi9.

I'm not sure what you are doing at this point with respect to the LSi25 subs, but if it were me, I'd leave the sub connected to the top half and simply run it as a full range speaker on Large.

The SVS will then handle all low passed bass from the other surround channels set to Small, and the LFE channel. You might get less total bass in this config, but it also might give a different looking room curve.

HTF = Home Theater Forum. www.hometheaterforum.com

In the Speakers and Subwoofers section, there are a bunch of BFD experts, there is a website and download to get you started with the BFD, and there is a room curve expert (Wayne P can't spell his last name to save my life, sorry) always willing to help.

Sorry if I am confused at this point on how you are running the 25's and what this curve actually represents in terms of reflecting what set-up you were running when you obtained it.

**Rotarydude** · 10-27-2003 07:00 PM

The mapping of the graph is taken after I have change all the lower portion of the LSi25 to a "full" range setup. So I am running the Lsi25 currently as full range, and SVS as the .1

I have taken a look at the Behringer, its quite nice. I am certainly consider this as my last alternative on fixing my peaks. I'm going to move the sub toward the wall, and than away from the wall and see if I can change the respond.

I'm also going to see if the 80hz peak is because of the combination of the 3 subs...so maybe I can fiddle with the x-over on the LSi a bit more.

Will report later

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