AVR or Integrated Amplifier for bookshelf speaker

[pyrocyborg]

Hi again!

I know it's an eternal debate, now that AVR are cheap enough. There may be a lot of threads about this on the Internet, but everywhere I see a lot of conflicting information, and no real blind test for this kind of situation. However, there is one thing I quite don't understand in that matter: Why do integrated amps cost more than AVR? I know manufacturers may cheap out on certain components in the AVR so you can get a lot for less, but is it also because integrated amps are less in demand (thus, affecting it's overall price)?

FIY, I currently own an entry level 2 years old Yamaha AVR with two Polk RTi6 I got for 200 CAD here new (pretty much better than the 450 or so CAD MSRP, even if they are discontinued). I know my speakers aren't that great, but I want to change my AVR for something specialized in 2 ch, because even if I like to listen to some movies in bluray, I don't even have or want a 5.1 system. I mostly listen to music... However, I know that to play my bluray or my music collection on my PC in FLAC, I will have to buy an external DAC which isn't given anyway.

In your opinion, what is the best for a certain price to drive bookshelf speaker and have quality sound over "quantity"? Lets say we have a budget of 600 bucks. Will an AVR be able to compete with an integrated amplifier at this price range, if you exclude the cost of an external DAC? Or would it be better to put that money into speakers, get something better and keep my AVR?

Thanks everyone!

[cnh]

The more you cram into a small AVR box the worse it gets. To much noise in the system. Integrated amps concentrate on "sound" quality by focusing on a good pre-amp and amp section. They're not trying to "do" everything which is what an AVR tries, i.e., surround, video processing, AM/FM, internet streaming, LFE management, etc.

Also 50 or 60 watts x 2 on a NAD or C.A. integrated is a lot more juice for two channel than the so-called 90-100 watt multi-channel Yamaha. These integrateds have more "head" room, so they can literally double their power for short bursts and have no problem driving 4 ohm loads which would fry most AVRs!

So the simple answer is, yes, integrateds are generally better. And in your case a 600 dollar NAD or Cambridge Audio Integated will put a 600 Yamaha AVR to shame! Mid level Yammies tend to be "bright" and "forward" like Rti-6s. So matching your speakers to a more powerful, more detailed and/or warmer integrated will bring something out of those speakers you haven't heard yet. Especially for music.

If you're into music first. Give the Rti-6s a chance with a good integrated of 50 or more watts per channel. I recommend NAD or the Cambridge Audio Azur series. Try to listen to both to see which sound you prefer!

cnh

[pyrocyborg]

Thanks! I was looking for a CA Azur 550A or 350A, but was also looking at NAD. However, NAD are about 100-150$ more here, but I guess I could wait up until something is in sale to make my decision... CA are supposed to be a tad bright when compared to NAD from what I see. I like something forward, to be able to hear a lot of sounds... but I also like to relax and do something else as I have tinnitus and bright sounds can be anoying.

For what I can hear now, my Yamaha + Polk RTI combo is way too bright. I had RTi4 before, but sold them to my mother, and those RTi6 are lighter on the treble... but it's still bright. I don't listen at very high lvl (around 60 dB), sometimes more... but there is a lack thereoff with my current system in almost every aspect of the sound.

So, I should keep my RTI6 and get an integrated amp as even if I get new speakers, they will be limited by my low-end yammy? I know some people say those RTI6, when properly driven, can be very good for their price. If I can keep them for a few years, and change them for something better later, it would be great!

[Syndil]

You might also consider separates at that price range. If it's a 2-channel system, should be quite doable.

[cnh]

That sounds like a good plan.

BTW. I own a set of RTi-A3s (the new version of your speakers) and a set of LSi-7s. While I like the A3s fine. For "music", as you can see below, the LSi-7s do the duty on a NAD integrated. That's a wonderful match. The A3s also sound better on the NAD, but the 7s are something more!

So yeah, give your speakers a chance, get a new amp. And consider something higher level eventually. But listen to a number of speakers first!

cnh

[tonyb]

Taking everything into consideration, a pair of LSI9's and a nice integrated should yield significant improvements and take care of any bright sound.

[cnh]

You could also go separates, that's true. If you go used.

Let me give an example there. I run another system upstairs:

Cambridge Soundworks Model Six speakers $100
Adcom GFA-545 amp (100 watts x 2 @ 8 ohms--almost twice that into 4 ohms). ($165 Used)
Nakamichi-CA-5 pre-amp ($205 Used)

This system 470 dollars worth rivals the LSi-7 set up below. The sound is different but clean, dynamic, very detailed and pleasing!

tonyb's suggestion would also solve your present dilemma. The LSi-9s have more bottom end than, and you need a good "amp" in any case!

Happy hunting!

cnh

[EndersShadow]

chn: does the CA-5 have a remote? I forget which one of those has the remote as I dont think they all do...

[cnh]

No remote. I think that may be the next model up. This is a "passive" pre...no tone controls. But very nice!!


cnh

[pyrocyborg]

Oh! Great, thanks everyone! I'm a little "backward" when it comes to used stuff... I know we can find outrageous deals, but I like to have some kind of warranty, maybe it makes me a sissy... :S

Also, I don't think I'll be able to change everything at the same time... I'm a student, and it would just make my payments harder to make :P

[markmarc]

Definitely go with a quality integrated amp, both the NAD and Cambridge offer quality power/sound in their price range. Either one will do fine with the RTi6's. Though down the line you might want to add a small subwoofer to give the setup some bottom end grunt.
AudioAdvisor.com has some good deals on closeout Cambridge models right now and they also carry NAD products IF you don't have a local dealer.

[cubdog]

Even a 2 channel reciever will be much better than an AVR. There are still some nice ones available new or used.

cubdog

[pyrocyborg]

Thanks! So a 2 channel integrated amp it will be. I'll need a DAC, but I was about to get one anyway! Thanks everyone!

[DeadFeat1]

Give the Marantz PM 5004 or 5006 a look. I have the 5004 pushing a pair of RTiA1 speakers and enjoy the combination. Have fun looking...

[pyrocyborg]

Thanks Dead! I tried to find the Marantz PM 5004 and I had to give a deposit first to try it... because my only Marantz reseller don't carry it in stock. Also, the guy told me that at 35W per channel, it would only be good for background music and would lack any kind of punch. May I ask your what are the dimensions of your room, and if you find the volume level interresting?

I don't listen to any loud level (can't stand more than 90 dB if I'm in the same room) and I would suggest that my normal level is between 60 and 70 dB. I might go to 80 dB sometimes, but I never do it for more than a few minutes.

At another shop, I'm seen they sell Rotel and Cambridge Audio, and the less expensive Rotel is at 699$... I asked the guy what he tought of Cambridge Audio, and he said without thinking that it lacks everything (I was looking at a 470$ model, the Azur 550A which seems great on paper). Well, maybe he do like rock and bassy music over all, that's why he told me that. Nonetheless, I'll give CA a shot, as those are the less expensive between those three brands. I didn't find any NAD here, the store where it was sold went bankrupt. I'll look up later.

I listened to a B&W/Rotel combo, it was great... but hell, at 2500$, it should be... lol

Anyway, I mostly listen to 70 to 90's rock, a lot of jazz, and sometime metal... but it's so harsh right now that I don't even think about it. With my yammy/polk combo, heavy rock and metal lacks any punch, or definition.... it sounds "muddy" and "harsh"... well, metalic and without subtance.

So what do you think of the Cambridge Audio and Polk RTI combo? Is it on the bright side, or is it mostly neutral with good definition and good bass overall? I know my ears will be the judge, but if some people find this combo irritating, I sure will. I can't stand my Yamaha except for HT which it does a really really great job for it's price.

[Lietuvis91]

For what it's worth here is my experience:

Started with m70s and an onkyo 608 avr. This made sense at the time since it was all in one box that had all the features I needed. I thought it sounded ok for what it was. Then got a yamaha E492 pre-and a parasound hca1000a and was really stunned with the improvement in sound. Recently i brough the amp in for service and hooked the m70s back to the 608... and I hate it. No power, no clarity, just sounds like crap compared to what I had before.

Point is: if you can squeeze an integrated amp or a pre + amp combo into your budget, then that is definitely the way to go. And the guys up there are right, NAD makes great stuff, in fact the audio shop closest to my house ONLY stocks NAD stuff, as they think that at that price nothing can beat it.

[DeadFeat1]

[QUOTE=pyrocyborg;1710638]Thanks Dead! I tried to find the Marantz PM 5004 and I had to give a deposit first to try it... because my only Marantz reseller don't carry it in stock. Also, the guy told me that at 35W per channel, it would only be good for background music and would lack any kind of punch. May I ask your what are the dimensions of your room, and if you find the volume level interresting?

I don't listen to any loud level (can't stand more than 90 dB if I'm in the same room) and I would suggest that my normal level is between 60 and 70 dB. I might go to 80 dB sometimes, but I never do it for more than a few minutes.

I have a room that is 12x13 with 7 foot plus ceiling opening to a 5 ft wide by 12 foot hallway. I usually listen at moderate levels, but have pushed it to the point that is uncomfortably loud. So, no I don't agree with the salesman. I usually listen at your levels and absolutely recommend the Marantz. I'm not one of the big watt guys around here for 2 channel. I prefer a great amp with high headroom. Stereophile gave it a very good review. Check it out...

[PrazVT]

I'd second the NAD suggestion - I'm running LSi9s w/ a c375bee integrated, which is a bit more expensive. But the NAD c326 and 356 (and previous versions of those 3) could be possibilities as well. NAD tends to rate their amps conservatively and list separate dynamic power. I've been happy with mine.

[pyrocyborg]

Thanks for your inputs about NAD. I know it's a great brand, and might be smoother to the ears when compared to Cambridge Audio... However, as far as I know, NAD is pricier here (around 600$ for the C326bee) which makes no sense as to my knowledge, it's headquarter are located in Canada. There again, it might depend on the retailer itself more than NAD.

I guess I'll have to test those three (CA, NAD and Marantz), and maybe more will add to this list later on.

If this way, I can keep my RTI6 for a few years then upgrade, it would be great as I'm sure they can play great... at least, I hope! I mean, every other speaker sells for way more than 200$ here, so I think it's fine for the money, if I can get a better amp!

[cnh]

Don't rule out something nice "used" in speakers for 150-250! You Canadians have some nice resources for that up there. I assume you're familiar with

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/

Good stuff and good prices. Never used that since I'm on this side but it's been a useful 'research' tool. Check it out!

And good luck!

cnh

[pyrocyborg]

Thanks cnh, but the canuck audio mart is mostly for Ontario... I live in the Quebec province, and there is like 6 to 7 ltime less stuff in there (this is probably because of pseudo-political issues that drive most people in Quebec to neglect most english canadian websites... we speak french by the way).. Anyways, I might take a look from time to time, just in case.

While looking for amplifiers, I came up upon a thread about the HK 3490 receiver. Supposedly, it offers a lot for the money in that range. My guess is it will offer vastly superior performances over my Yammy AVR, but I can't find anything clear about it's performance when compared to, let's say, an integrated amp and an external DAC that cost way more (e.g. 500 amp and 300$ DAC).

[EndersShadow]

Thanks cnh, but the canuck audio mart is mostly for Ontario... I live in the Quebec province, and there is like 6 to 7 ltime less stuff in there (this is probably because of pseudo-political issues that drive most people in Quebec to neglect most english canadian websites... we speak french by the way).. Anyways, I might take a look from time to time, just in case.

While looking for amplifiers, I came up upon a thread about the HK 3490 receiver. Supposedly, it offers a lot for the money in that range.

For its price the HK 3490 hits WAAAY above the belt, however a NAD or Cambridge Audio integrated are just as good.

I can't find anything clear about it's performance when compared to, let's say, an integrated amp and an external DAC that cost way more (e.g. 500 amp and 300$ DAC).

Using the cost of your compnents as an example going with an external DAC and amp would be the better route there.

HOWEVER it is all dependent upon what sources you have and what connections you need. A DAC with Coaxial/Optical is going to cost more than one with just RCA's.

[DeadFeat1]

I really like NAD products and have listened to many over the years. Although I have not auditioned this particular item, I have read some very good reviews about the NAD C316 BEE...it might meet your needs.

[pyrocyborg]

If I can get a NAD 326 on sale when the time comes, I'll get this (it's on sale right now @ my NAD dealer for 460$)... Otherwise, at 600$ (full price), I don't know... Here, the Cambridge Audio Azur 550A is like 475 $, so I don't know if the NAD worth the extra cash. I think the NAD sound might be a great way to tame the RTI6 "brightness" while offering hours and hours of effortless listening pleasure... but the CA seems more involving from what I can read. Don't know what it looks like after a few hours of listening.

Anyway, thanks everyone for your input. I know now that integrated amp is the way to go (or at least, a good stereo receiver, as the HK 3490 stands it's own) and I'll take the time to test every amp in my budget, if I can bring them home at least.

[Lietuvis91]

Sounds like a good approach, good luck in your search