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  1. #1

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    Default New amp with minimal improvement

    Well I have been powering my speakers just off the receiver and recently decided to get a separate amp to help power them.
    I have a onkyo HT-RC 370 receiver
    Rti 12(fronts) Csi a6 (center) and Fx 4 (surr) and the amp is a Emotiva xpa 5

    I have the fronts setup running ch 1 and 2 to the tops and ch 3 and 4 running to the woofers. Ch 5 running center speaker.
    Thing is I can't really tell much of an improvement . Did I just waste $1100 or is there something I'm missing here.

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    Did you say improvement or difference?

    That's a rather important distinction. If you didn't hear an improvement I am not surprised. If you didn't get any more power or volume I would say something is amiss.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stilly74 View Post
    Well I have been powering my speakers just off the receiver and recently decided to get a separate amp to help power them.
    I have a onkyo HT-RC 370 receiver
    Rti 12(fronts) Csi a6 (center) and Fx 4 (surr) and the amp is a Emotiva xpa 5

    I have the fronts setup running ch 1 and 2 to the tops and ch 3 and 4 running to the woofers. Ch 5 running center speaker.
    Thing is I can't really tell much of an improvement . Did I just waste $1100 or is there something I'm missing here.
    What were you expecting as far as improvements and changes? What didn't you like about your old set-up that you wanted to change. The Emo isn't the greatest choice, but you should hear a difference, positive or negative. Are you sure all your AVR settings are correct, etc.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

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    As far as I can tell, sound quality shouldn't be affected, except that as there is more power, it should be cleaner and less prone to distorsion. Having a better DAC could help, but considering that the your AVR is a good one (650-700$ range if I am not mistaken), it should already include something of value there.

    I just did something similar, I replaced my Yamaha entry level AVR with a NAD 326 integrated amp with a V-DAC. I guess most of the differences comes from the V-DAC in kind of "sound differences", but the sound is somehow better, cleaner on passages that were congested before while using the integrated amp (I guess). However, on most tracks, there is only minimal differences.

    What I can see is that I have a hell lot more power... way too much.
    Speakers: Polk Audio LSi7
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    SQ shouldn't be affected? I have to disagree on that one. By that I hear you saying different amps don't sound different? Adding an amp (especially a generic one) will most definitely affect SQ. Good Or Bad depends on what you were using before.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SDA1C View Post
    SQ shouldn't be affected? I have to disagree on that one. By that I hear you saying different amps don't sound different? Adding an amp (especially a generic one) will most definitely affect SQ. Good Or Bad depends on what you were using before.
    Well, for now I can't do any critical listening... my volume is either loud or mute... having kind of a problem here. However, I poorly explained myself. The SQ gains or differences aren't in kind of "qualitative" ways (it isn't warmer, brighter, or darker, or whatever... as amps add no real flavour so it doesn't actually sound different): it's cleaner, somehow more detailed so sure, it's noticeably better.

    But is it a night and day difference? No... Speakers will do that, in case you have the recommended power for them. I understand now why some people keep on teling that sound flavour comes from the speakers and DAC, not the amp.

    I bought a NAD as it was considered a "warm" amp, but as far as I can hear, this isn't exactly the case as it sounds exactly the same (if you qualify it on the bright/warm continuum) than my cheap "considered bright yamaha AVR". However as it is a better amp, there is better specs, much cleaner power, which could IMO help in detailling and giving more clean, precise bass (instead of muddy sounding one).
    Last edited by pyrocyborg; 02-03-2012 at 09:39 AM.
    Speakers: Polk Audio LSi7
    Integrated amplifier: NAD C326BEE
    Source : HTPC Using JRiver Media Center
    DAC: Musical Fidelity V-DAC
    Phono Source : Kenwood KD-3070
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyrocyborg View Post
    As far as I can tell, sound quality shouldn't be affected, except that as there is more power, it should be cleaner and less prone to distorsion. Having a better DAC could help, but considering that the your AVR is a good one (650-700$ range if I am not mistaken), it should already include something of value there.

    I just did something similar, I replaced my Yamaha entry level AVR with a NAD 326 integrated amp with a V-DAC. I guess most of the differences comes from the V-DAC in kind of "sound differences", but the sound is somehow better, cleaner on passages that were congested before while using the integrated amp (I guess). However, on most tracks, there is only minimal differences.

    What I can see is that I have a hell lot more power... way too much.
    Every piece of gear in the chain has it's own sound.........so I'll have to say you are wrong about not being any difference is sound. It's not just a matter of the ability to play a little louder. Also, you can never have too many watts, no such thing unless you have super effecient horns or something like that.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    Every piece of gear in the chain has it's own sound.........so I'll have to say you are wrong about not being any difference is sound. It's not just a matter of the ability to play a little louder. Also, you can never have too many watts, no such thing unless you have super effecient horns or something like that.

    H9
    Even at that ...having too many and using too many are two entirely different things.
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  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by pyrocyborg View Post

    I bought a NAD as it was considered a "warm" amp, but as far as I can hear, this isn't exactly the case as it sounds exactly the same than my cheap yamaha AVR. Better amp = better specs, cleaner power, which could IMO help in detailling and giving more clean, precise bass (instead of muddy sounding one) and in case of tubes amps, yeah, the tube sound.
    From experience I can 100% tell you it's not the NAD. It's something else in the chain that is causing you issues, plus if the NAD is brand new, it needs sometime to break in a bit. But what you have described so far in other threads, even broken in it's not going to change much. You now need to work on isolating the problem. If both amps sound about the same the issue is elsewhere in your system.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

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  10. #10

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    Agreed! There is something else screwy. What with the volume knob??
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    Ditch the bi-amping and see if that helps.
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    re-run calibration setup...?
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    There is a difference in how loud it goes for sure. But I don't know , maybe I was expecting more. I find that the bottom end comes alive a lot sooner . Meaning you do not have to turn it up as loud as before to start feeling deep bass. Just thought that going from 90 watts to 200watts would have made a more dramatic effect on the speakers.
    Will try changing the biamping and see if there is any change but I don't think there will be.

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    Agree, take the bi-amp thing away, put the metal jumpers back in and use one amp.

    An amplifier does pretty much what your describing. Better clearity, more dynamics, it's not going to magically transform the speakers into something they are not.

    Incidently, how did you have all this hooked up ? Did you have Y connectors splitting the signal ?

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    When I first connected my Parasound 2250 amp to my (now sold) Rti10s I felt the same way. However, my wife has a better ear and noticed the difference immediately and was able to point it out to me. With the amp there was a precision or realism that allowed instruments to sound like instruments, not just notes. Listening to Tori Amos I could hear the timbre of her piano. In other recordings I could hear flaws or sounds that I never noticed. You might not care about such details, but I suspect if you listen carefully you will hear them. Having said that, I do believe I have reached my personal diminishing returns for amps, at least given my ability to hear subtle differences and nuances. If I am to spend money now it will be on speakers. The differences there are much more dramatic IMHO.
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    No y connectors . Just straight single RCA's from receiver to amp

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    In my opinion, sometimes, no matter how good or bad the amp is, it will only put out as good of sound as the premp signal sends. SO in my opinion, if you have a good solid amp but, the pre is ok but not great, your not going to hear all the detail or sound that you would want out of any amp. About the only difference you might hear is a litle louder, or a little more bass or a little clearer highs depending on the speakers and the "synergy" of the system.

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    I don't think it is the receiver. I think the OP expected something miraculous and got OK instead.

    Have you rerun the setup with the XPA in the mix? Or are you still using the old or factory settings?

    Biamping isn't hurting but it probably isn't doing to much to help either. You only have 1 front left preout and 1 front right preout on your receiver. So you must be using a y splitter to get the signal across the two channels of the amp, or you have it hooked up in a weird way.

    What you should expect. More dynamic ability, less distortion, easier to drive at lower volumes, cleaner tighter bass. So far you are hearing most of this from what i can read from your posts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stilly74 View Post
    No y connectors . Just straight single RCA's from receiver to amp
    I had the same question as Joe08867... How are you running signal to separate amp channels for woofer/tweeter if you're not using Y connectors to split the output from the receiver?

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    The receiver has 7 preouts. There is a setting in the receiver to use the surround backs as biamping the front highs. So the wiring is setup as follows
    Have ch 1 on amp wired to center
    Have ch 2 and 3 wired to front speakers woofers left and right
    Have ch 4 and 5 wired to front speakers highs left and right
    So basically have 200 watts running to highs and 200 watts running to lows in each speaker

    And for an update I have found the problem . Front speakers were set to 80 htz instead of full band . Now I can tell a big difference. Love the new sound that comes out of these speakers.
    Next purchase Lsi m 707's

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    And for an update I have found the problem . Front speakers were set to 80 htz instead of full band . Now I can tell a big difference.
    You would have heard that difference with just the AVR too.
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    Before running the amp the fronts were set to full band. Not sure why but after amp was hooked up they were set to 80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stilly74 View Post
    Next purchase Lsi m 707's
    And what will you power the 707's with?

    Hopefully not the Emotiva spa 5?
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    That amp will run the 707's just fine.
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    ^ I Agree^ Or the Emo isnt supposed to run the new LSIM's? New technology or something?
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    The bass is going to be the biggest difference. I doesn't take too much to power the tops, but getting the lowend to jive with the tops is huge in and of itself. I had to get over 200wpc to make it work for my 12s as well. Don't run in bi-amped and see what you think.
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    The emotive xpa 5 will run the 707's just fine. I have spoke with Polk about this already. The 707's can be run at 4 or 8 ohms. The amp will push 300 watts per/ch at 4 ohms. It never surprises me when someone needs to chim in cause they think you have to have a
    Adcom or sunfire amp cause they cost much more--- there for they must be much better. Maybe they do sound a little better but what ever. I'm not running a theater room here for the general public. There is always something bigger and better.

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    The emotive xpa 5 will run the 707's just fine.
    Sure it will run them, but so will a JVC receiver. It's about the sound......it's always about the sound.

    The 707's can be run at 4 or 8 ohms.
    Huh?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stilly74 View Post
    It never surprises me when someone needs to chim in cause they think you have to have a
    Adcom or sunfire amp cause they cost much more--- there for they must be much better. Maybe they do sound a little better but what ever. I'm not running a theater room here for the general public. There is always something bigger and better.
    That's because they are better. As you point out, there is always something better. Emo is great starter gear, but as your listening skills improve, the upgrade bug will bite you too. I am looking towards Mcintosh for my next move.
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    Come on John, you've surpased the McIntosh level as soon as you fire up your self made beauties!!

    Unless your just talking about a pre-amp.

    I talked to a young man and he and his father researched alot and bought Emotiva amps also. One hates Bob Carver for some reason but that's fine. We all learn and live. I know Emo is growing considerably per their low cost per figures output or what-ever. Bob Carver did the same thing years ago with lower cost per figures output and low noise and all that.

    When I hear smart people do research and buy Emotiva and are pleased, I'm glad for them. Maybe one day I'll get an Emotiva piece and compare it to what I've heard over the years and judge for myself.

    I still remember the Tube amp a friend used to power gigantic speakers while he played along on his keyboards and Lesley powered speaker. I don't know about quality from the tube amp since we rocked out to kansas and such but I know their power and might get one one day just to play with if the price is low enough. Flea amps and the little guys are getting cheaper every day and the used market is too.

    God I love audio, and I hate eletrical problems!!!!! I've just spent 100.00 on old equipment to try and get them to work only to find out they don't make the nessesary part anymore and the cost of another would run more than it's resale value. Strike two. Let's see what happens on my third atempt at getting a vintage subwoofer to quit humming. Again I hope it's less than 100.0 total.
    Quote Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post
    That's because they are better. As you point out, there is always something better. Emo is great starter gear, but as your listening skills improve, the upgrade bug will bite you too. I am looking towards Mcintosh for my next move.
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