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  1. #31

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    To my ears, loud CDs such as Metallica's Death Magnetic or Lady Gaga - Born This Way are simply painful to listen to. I have a volume knob that goes from -60 to +18, why record a CD where I can only go from -60 to -24 and then everything above that sounds bad? Makes no sense.

  2. #32

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    Her music could be recorded and mastered better than anything else on earth and I still wouldn't listen...

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by grimmace19 View Post
    Her music could be recorded and mastered better than anything else on earth and I still wouldn't listen...
    Really??? I love her but agree with above statements on mastering. The vinyl is much better..

  4. #34

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    Interesting reading this, When I first seen you talking about having to turn your receiver up to in the + range I was certain of a few things 1. Your deaf. 2. You have a weak crappy receiver. 3 Your speakers are terribly inefficient.

    But the Denon isn't a weak crappy receiver and I have no idea of what your speakers are, certainly some recordings are much louder than others, for instance I was listening to Alison Krauss earlier then switched to Sade-Solider Of Love and I had to turn down the volume quickly easily a 10db difference or more.

    One of the tricks salesmen will use to sell cheaply built receivers is just that, have efficient speakers hooked up and a couple of really loud CD's on hand then point out that hey at a 1/4 volume its powerful enough to blow you out of the room, of course once you get it home and hook it up to your 84 db speakers it doesnt do as well



    REGARDS SNOW
    Well, I just pulled off the impossible by doing a double-blind comparison all by myself, purely by virtue of the fact that I completely and stupidly forgot what I did last. I guess that getting old does have its advantages after all :D

  5. #35

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    Well, good news. It's not the receiver. Here is a video of my Onkyo doing the same thing - can't turn the volume up to 0dB without it basically sounding like noise. Here it is at -32dB with Adele - Set Fire to the Rain and the sound is already very loud.



    With my classical recordings I can go up to 0dB and over without hearing distortion.

  6. #36

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    This may be a dumb observation. But this is nothing new with the level of some recorded CD's. I turn it up or down depending on CD. So.....where exactly is the beef? Just tonight going from Sting's 'Ten Summoners Tales' to Rush 'Moving Pictures'. Had to back off the volume.
    --Gary--

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by halo71 View Post
    This may be a dumb observation. But this is nothing new with the level of some recorded CD's. I turn it up or down depending on CD. So.....where exactly is the beef? Just tonight going from Sting's 'Ten Summoners Tales' to Rush 'Moving Pictures'. Had to back off the volume.
    My issue is with the distortion. If you look at the first video I posted, I have the Denon turned up to 0dB on a classical piece and it's sounding great at that level. Nothing's wrong with the system, no blown tweeters, and the sound is really engaging to my ears. Pop in Adele, keep the volume at the same level, and you will go deaf within a short period of time...

    Now in the second video I tried this with my Onkyo receiver. I can turn the volume up to the +dB range on a classical recording, no problem, but keep the volume set at +4 with Adele and ouch!! Painful to the ears.

  8. #38

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    Please forgive me for asking. But you are just now discovering this? And never noticed a difference in different CD recordings?
    --Gary--

  9. #39

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    A roughly 30dB difference? No, I've had CDs that were louder and quieter than others, but some of these modern recordings are so loud and filled with clipping it's starting to get ridiculous.

    I have outdoor speakers in the backyard - if I had 4 classical CDs in the changer and one modern "pop" album, when the CD switched over you would hear it 5-6 houses away. Easily.

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by halo71 View Post
    But this is nothing new with the level of some recorded CD's. I turn it up or down depending on CD. So.....where exactly is the beef?
    I did some reading and apparently it's not just the level. In the following link, http://www.cutestudio.net/data/produ...ping/index.php, the author writes:

    "As the sound level increases, so does the clipping, and therefore so do the odd order harmonic distortion products, dancing around the mid and high frequencies as a mass of shifting harmonic distortion that increases steeply with volume."

    "The swirling odd-harmonic noise is objectionable to the human ear. This turns a reasonable Hi-Fi format into a dynamic HF noise generator and the effect can only be one thing - people turn down the volume and switch off."

    I mentioned in the first post that I noticed a lot of swirling and HF noise, in the recording.

  11. #41

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    I will agree that "21" does suffer from the evils of dynamic compression, you can hear the crunchy top end on some of the tracks. But, I believe part of the problem is that so much of it was recorded in a house that in no way can handle her vocal instrument. Compared to "19", the recording does sound better.

    A good read on the recording process for this album: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep1...es/it-0911.htm

    I've listened to "21" many times now on my main rig rotating between the Verity Audio Finns and Maggie 1.6qr with custom Skiing Ninja x-overs. It's not great, but nor is it unlistenable by any measure.

    Hopefully, in the not too distant future we will be able to purchase a MoFi copy of "21" in its true glory.
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  12. #42

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    Wow is all I can add this tread.... I'm behind the 8 ball on this one, I wished to pick this CD up and now I'm afraid I'm not going to like this CD!

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  13. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by disneyjoe7 View Post
    Wow is all I can add this tread.... I'm behind the 8 ball on this one, I wished to pick this CD up and now I'm afraid I'm not going to like this CD!
    I think you will enjoy it, sure the dynamics are a bit much at times but the music itself is worth having, no doubt one of the top 10 voices in the last few years.

    Here is a link that gives you an idea of what the CD sounds like, simply click on the arrow next to each song to listen to them.

    http://www.bing.com/music/songs/sear...33&FORM=DTPMUO



    REGARDS SNOW
    Well, I just pulled off the impossible by doing a double-blind comparison all by myself, purely by virtue of the fact that I completely and stupidly forgot what I did last. I guess that getting old does have its advantages after all :D

  14. #44

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    There's nothing wrong with your equipment. It's compression. All the peaks have been chopped off due to everything being boosted to satisfy the "louder is better" crowd. I'd bet that cd doesn't have 8dB of dynamic range.

    For those of you not familiar with this "technique" go to youtube and search "loudness wars." You'll see how distorted and compressed some of you music is.
    Last edited by steveinaz; 02-21-2012 at 07:23 AM.

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  15. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by steveinaz View Post
    There's nothing wrong with your equipment. It's compression. All the peaks have been chopped off due to everything being boosted to satisfy the "louder is better" crowd. I'd bet that cd doesn't have 8dB of dynamic range.
    Thanks. I guess there's nothing I can do except turn the music down, even at -32 it's too loud. And for those saying I would damage my gear, you guys are right - if I play one of my usual classical recordings at +4 and then switch to Adele I'd definitely be clipping my system and destroying a tweeter or more. Gotta remember to turn down the volume before switching over.

    Otherwise, boom --> empty wallet --> replace tweeters.

  16. #46

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    Luckily for me, 75% of my CD's were bought in the early/mid 80's, before they started jacking everything up to satisfy the boom-box crowd. Now, before I buy any CD---I research it first. I'm still in the process of going back and finding better "masters" of some of my collection. I'm also getting rid of all "greatest hits" compilations and buying the seperate albums.

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  17. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by steveinaz View Post
    Luckily for me, 75% of my CD's were bought in the early/mid 80's, before they started jacking everything up to satisfy the boom-box crowd. Now, before I buy any CD---I research it first. I'm still in the process of going back and finding better "masters" of some of my collection. I'm also getting rid of all "greatest hits" compilations and buying the seperate albums.
    I find sometimes, the remasters actually sound worse than the original recordings. For example, one day my father brought home "ABBA's Greatest Hits" and it was noisy and distorted. Had the same problem as the Adele recording, couldn't turn it up to 0dB. Some of U2's remasters also sound noticeably louder and have more clipping distortion than the original recordings.

    Fortunately, 90% of my music collection is not pop/rock/hip-hop, for example you can still buy good Jazz recordings that can be turned up and not get listener fatigue. Lots of my Classical CDs from the 80s also sound really good.

  18. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by steveinaz View Post
    There's nothing wrong with your equipment. It's compression. All the peaks have been chopped off due to everything being boosted to satisfy the "louder is better" crowd. I'd bet that cd doesn't have 8dB of dynamic range.

    For those of you not familiar with this "technique" go to youtube and search "loudness wars." You'll see how distorted and compressed some of you music is.
    Absolutely......but also, playing that compressed crap at Higher SPL's.....not good.

    Question for you cd rippers. When you guys rip a cd, do you rip the whole thing, every song, first and then take out what you don't want....or....do you take out the songs you don't want before ripping the cd ? Does it make a difference in the quality of the outcome ? Just curious is all.

  19. #49

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    Yep; because many so-called "remasters" are nothing more than re-recordings with jacked-up levels. I don't buy any remasters without researching them first. Now, the LATEST ABBA remasters are suppose to be very well done.

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  20. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyb View Post
    Question for you cd rippers. When you guys rip a cd, do you rip the whole thing, every song, first and then take out what you don't want....or....do you take out the songs you don't want before ripping the cd ? Does it make a difference in the quality of the outcome ? Just curious is all.
    I rip the entire CD, I don't see how it would have any effect on SQ using either method you describe for removing unwanted songs.

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  21. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyb View Post
    Absolutely......but also, playing that compressed crap at Higher SPL's.....not good.
    Absolutely right. The AVR-5800 is rated at 170W/ch in stereo mode, magazines have rated it at around 146W/ch, so figure it produces about 128W/ch in 2 channel mode. For every doubling of the wattage you increase the SPL by 3dB, so I have approximately a 21dB gain before I hit clipping.

    Problem is, I have found that there is more than a 21dB difference between the Adele recording vs. my classical recordings. More like around a 30dB difference in the level.

    My speakers have around a 90dB sensitivity. At +4 with a crappy, compressed recording I'd be in the 110-120dB range. Yeah, expect some tweeters and woofers to fry at that level.

    Not good.

  22. #52

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    At a setting of 0 I have already determined that my in-room SPL's are around 77dB with one of my typical recordings.

    I get roughly the same in-room SPL at -30 with a loud, compressed recording.

    So for all reading this thread, BE CAREFUL with the volume knob on a dangerous recording like this one. I can clip my system without even getting to 0 on this one!!

  23. #53

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    Just got "21" this past weekend. Her voice does sound a bit strident on some passages, more the first 2-3 tracks than the later ones. She's hitting the notes, but it sounds to me like she's over driving the mic, or the recording levels are turned up too high. The compression is pretty bad too.

    Aside from the recording quality, the music is very good! I'd say it's one of those CD's that you have to try to listen past the limitations to the music.
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  24. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by drumminman View Post
    I'd say it's one of those CD's that you have to try to listen past the limitations to the music.
    If I have to try that hard, it isn't worth it. Just my .02

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    I say play 21 on some tubes and you wont notice anything wrong with the recording

  26. #56

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    You'd need tubes the size of a nuclear reactor to fix this mess. Tubes do nothing for severe compression. Her voice sounds good, it's the band/music that is pushd into the stratosphere. Much the same as Daughtry's first album; clear vocals...then NOISE,. What a shame for such an excellent effort.

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  27. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by drumminman View Post
    Aside from the recording quality, the music is very good! I'd say it's one of those CD's that you have to try to listen past the limitations to the music.
    How can you listen past the limitations of the music if it is fatiguing to listen to?

  28. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by steveinaz View Post
    You'd need tubes the size of a nuclear reactor to fix this mess. Tubes do nothing for severe compression. Her voice sounds good, it's the band/music that is pushd into the stratosphere. Much the same as Daughtry's first album; clear vocals...then NOISE,. What a shame for such an excellent effort.
    I'm glad that I'm not the only one that feels this way.

    See here:

    http://therealkfish.com/2011/03/10/a...to-rick-rubin/

  29. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by polkfarmboy View Post
    I say play 21 on some tubes and you wont notice anything wrong with the recording
    More like a band-aid to try and fix the problem.

  30. #60

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    A most of pop music is like this. The industry is all about compression.
    I heard David Lee Roth commenting about how modern Country has gotten
    and talked of compression like it was a good thing! Even Norah Jones' last album
    was was too hot with the levels. It really ruined it for me.
    "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson

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