SVS PB12-NSD (new version) arrived...

[steveinaz]

Of course fedex didn't show until 3:40pm, meaning I wasted a leave day--but no biggy.

Initial impressions are very positive. I'm just tweaking by ear right now, as my spl meter hasn't arrived yet, but I think I'm darn close. I'm integrating this sub into a 2 channel (no bass management) system, supplementing a pair of Harbeth 7ES-3 monitors (down 3dB @ 46Hz). I'm running the Harbeths full range, using only the low pass filter on the sub. The signal is run preamp level from the preamp loop on my amp. The sub flanks the left speaker, corner placement, about 18" from the backwall, and 8" from the side wall, angled slightly to match the speaker toe-in. The floor is concrete slab with carpet, and the sub is sitting on a 24" x 24" tile, on top of the carpet. Overall room is 18ftW x 36ftD x 8-12ft vaulted ceiling. The listening arear is 18ft x 16ft approx, and is part of a great room.

The PB12-NSD doesn't have all the crossover freq's marked (on the knob) on the new amp, but using Audioholics measurements from their review, I started at the 9 o'clock position on the crossover--which represents about a 50Hz XO. I started with the level at 10 o'clock. Phase was left on 0 degrees. I ended up bringing the XO down one "click" on the knob, and level has worked its way down to 2 clicks below the 9 o'clock position. I believe if I haven't "pegged it" I'm darn close, at least by ear. The sub is integrating very well, and is fast---and sounds GREAT. Just gives the illusion that the Harbeths are bigger, deeper speakers, disappearing completely, sonically. No bloat, over-hang or plumminess to the bass.

I thought my passive pre might create an issue with lack of output and 8 feet of IC to travel through, but it works just fine. BTW, the Blue Jeans LC1 analog cables are VERY nice---first time I ever tried them. Very good build quality, and thick yet very flexible. I wanted something nice, but not crazy expensive--the 8ft pair was $49.

So far, so good....

[SolidSqual]

Hey, do you have the sub spiked? My PB10 sounded way better with spikes from Herbie. Good luck!

[tonyb]

Great Steve, glad it's working it's magic for ya. One question....do you notice any localization with the low end ? Does it draw attention to itself at higher volumes ? Ok....thats 2 questions,my bad.

See Brock, didn't have to hound Steve for a quicky review....yuk ...yuk.

[steveinaz]

Hey, do you have the sub spiked? My PB10 sounded way better with spikes from Herbie. Good luck!

No, it's on it's own "composite" type spikes, on a clay tile. Not having any issues with muddy bass.

[steveinaz]

Great Steve, glad it's working it's magic for ya. One question....do you notice any localization with the low end ? Does it draw attention to itself at higher volumes ? Ok....thats 2 questions,my bad.

It was initially "heavy" in bass because the starting level (10 o'clock) was too high--but that's to be expected. No issues so far, but I've got a bunch more music to try on it yet. It's going much eaiser than my first attempt 7 years ago. The solidity and tightness of this sub is very impressive. I think it's going to be plenty of sub. The level is set pretty low because I just want to augment the bass for the Harbeth's---IOW my priority is 100% music production; even though the current conservative settings made Avatar quite fun last night.

The "new" version PB12-NSD w/sledgehammer amp (STA-400D DSP) has both it's ups and downs. While I love the click settings between adjustments, for easily repeatble settings--SVS only marks 30Hz and 150Hz position on the tick marks on the XO knob. When doing the "math" to try to figure out what each tick mark represents, it comes out to like 18.2 Hz per increment?? Goofy. Luckily Audioholic's had tested the low pass knob positions, so I was able to get a starting point. BTW, they said the knob was very accurate.

See below measurements by setting. I started at the 9 o'clock setting (orange trace):

[thsmith]

Congrats Steve ! I like SVS products, have had 0 problems with my PB13 and like Polk they have great CS.

[steveinaz]

Side note: The "new" PB12-NSD also features what used to be called the "PCi" woofer. The new dsp amp is rated at 400watts, and all settings are digital rather than analog. There are no speaker level inputs. The sub weighs about 66lbs. The SVS subs that use the STA-400D amp do NOT have the digital read-out. Only the higher level subs feature that.

[steveinaz]

This is my 2nd SVS, had a 25-31PC+ about 7 years ago. I'm having better success this time around integrating with my 2-channel.

[heiney9]

Sounds like it might work out, congrats.

H9

[steveinaz]

After hours more listening, different music, I brought level down one more click; now she just disappears. I'll be getting my SPL meter in a couple days, and I'll run some test tones. Curious to see I close I got by "ear." It's blended real nice right now, in fact when you turn it off, there's not an immediate change--the depth of bass just goes away, which tells me I'm close. It's amazing the depth/width of soundstage cues you get when integrating a sub.

[leroyjr1]

Have you tried any movies?

[heiney9]

IOW my priority is 100% music production; even though the current conservative settings made Avatar quite fun last night.

Have you tried any movies?

........

[leroyjr1]

^^^^^ thanks Steve for the quick response...

[steveinaz]

It's definitely bringing lots of depth and additional bass; moreso than with music, but that's largely due to the fact that most music doesn't have a lot of audio information much below 40Hz...where movies have tons of lower bass in most cases. We watched "Rise of the Planet of the Apes" on BluRay this weekend, the sound track was wicked. It definitely enhances the movie fun factor.

I have been using about 40 different tracks to tweak the sound. The "trick" is to not confuse contrived bass with real bass. Sometimes it's hard to resist the urge to "energize" all of the bass---but that's where a lot of people go wrong (I believe) when trying to integrate in a 2-channel system. 2-channel is quite a challenge because you don't want to mess up the midrange/treble/upper bass that your mains provide (at least I don't), you just want those last 2 octaves covered without smearing your sound, or mucking up your upper bass (usually a crossover setting issue). I have found by playing particular parts of tracks that have good bass energy, I turn the level down until I just lose that energized "feel", then I bring level up 1 notch. In other words, you don't want to enhance the bass---you just want to hear it at realistic levels that are on par with the levels of the rest of the track.

If you "think" you're hearing your sub---you likely are, drop your level 1 notch and try again.

[Conradicles]

It's amazing the depth/width of soundstage cues you get when integrating a sub.

No kidding! Sounds like you got it dialed in...Congrats.

[steveinaz]

When you think about it---if your goal is to simply fill-in missing low range, you won't need much level adjustment. You should not be hearing enhanced upper bass...what you will hear is deeper/longer decay in upper bass. That's where the magic lives.

A big mistake we probably all make, is comparing what we think the low bass should sound like---based on some tower speaker we owned. This approach has flaws; how do you know what you were hearing out of the other speakers was accurate low bass? Towers typically are ported--and most ported speakers have resonances that while satisfying, aren't the most "true-to-life" bass in the world. The low bass should be "felt" not heard. When listening to bass tracks, try to remember this---you're not looking for (or leveling for) resonances, you're listening for "feel" and a realness to the bass energy. If bass drums sound excessively "rubbery" "plummy" you've got too much level--and while the effect might be cool for awhile, it will mess with the synergy you have with your mains. Much like you tire from bright tweeters, you'll tire from the overly-enhanced bass.

[SolidSqual]

It's amazing the depth/width of soundstage cues you get when integrating a sub.

This is actually a pretty profound statement about bass. People will tell you that the music lives in the midrange, but like you, I've learned a good bass system adds definition and space across the soundstage. I suppose the best saying is "everything matters."

[steveinaz]

Absolutely, it's almost like switching from "mono" to "stereo" when you get it right---but in a sense of depth. Frampton Comes Alive really highlighted this.

I think THE biggest mistake people make is buying a sub to add "punch." BIG mistake. This is a character your mains need to posses, not your sub, IMO. This is likely where comments of subs not being "musical" come from.

[Dr. Spec]

Hi Steve -

Thanks for this feedback; your comments are bang-on. A subwoofer should sound like an extension of the speakers and not draw undue attention to itself or impart its own sonic signature to the music. The biggest compliment I can pay to any well-integrated sub is that the listener forgets he is listening to a subwoofer and is just hearing the bass.

Your dial-in process is perfect - 2 channel rigs in particular should always be done by ear for both level and low pass. What your hearing perceives as the 'correct' level and low pass settings may not be exactly reflected by any subsequent in-room acoustic measurements. So while I am a big proponent of measurements, don't get into a situation where the tail starts wagging the dog and you are letting the FR measurements drive any level/low pass changes. Trust your ears for the final settings.

[steveinaz]

Hey Doc-

It's kind of funny---I think I'm gonna leave the new SPL meter in the drawer, for the exact reason you pointed out! Don't mess with success OR why mess up a good situation with facts. LOL

7 years ago when I was bothering you to death with my 25-31PC+, I figured out that I was after the wrong "things." This is partially why I couldn't get that steup to work. I was hoping to change some characteristics of my mains, and in the process couldn't get things dialed in correctly. Bad motive. The room I have now is excellent for bass (at least my ears tell me so), and I was absolutely NOT wanting to change the tonal character of my Harbeths = success.

[Dr. Spec]

Hey Doc-

It's kind of funny---I think I'm gonna leave the new SPL meter in the drawer, for the exact reason you pointed out! Don't mess with success OR why mess up a good situation with facts. LOL

Usually we joke about 'don't let the facts get in the way of your opinion'. But in this case it really does apply. Your ears are the final judge, so trust them!

[steveinaz]

Exactly---my curves in my early "failed" attempt were wonderful---the sound, not so much.

I gotta tell you, I'm really impressed with the PB12-NSD. I was a little worried about integrating one of SVS cheaper subs with Harbeth monitors, but I am 100% satisfied with the performance of this sub. There's nothing "entry level" about it.

[SolidSqual]

That's very cool news.

[steveinaz]

I was really leaning towards the PB12-PLUS, but 1) It was HUGE, 2) I was still trigger-shy from my first attempt and didn't want to invest too much $ and then have difficulty unloading it.

[SolidSqual]

I like little subs with great capabilities. That's why I'm a fan of the Paradigm and Gallo subs. I'll have to checkout the SVS subs when I move into my new place.

[steveinaz]

After tons more listening, re-checking, etc; I have moved level up 2 clicks, 1 click up from the 9 o'clock position. Was a bit too bass shy where I had it. It may need 1 more click up---but I'll listen some more tonight and verify. With my signal coming from a passive pre, I thought I'd need to have level pretty high, but that's not the case.

I'll do some sweeps later, but mainly to verify my crossover point is clean.

[steveinaz]

A small sample of bass lines I've been using to tweak level:

Donald Fagen - Morph the cat
George Michael - Hard Day
Head East - Never Been any Reason
Sara Mclachlan - Train Wreck
Lenny Kravitz - American Woman
Steely Dan - 2 against Nature
Queensryche - Silent Lucidity
*Lifescapes - Smooth Jazz (numerous cuts)
*Lifescapes - Mexico (numerous)
*Lifescapes - Sante Fe (numerous)
David Benoit - Every step of the way (track 1, and Rebach)
Rush - YYZ
Eagles - How long
Telarc - Sampler I Pipe Organ music (can't recall the title, track 5)
TLC - No Scrubs/My Life
Billy Joel - Innocent Man
Blackstone Cherry - (First Album can't recall the title)
Altar Bridge - One day remains (numerous)
Nickleback - (the album with "Photograph" tracks 1 and 2)
Grover Washington - Winelight (numerous)

...any many, many more.

*Lifescapes are CD's sold at Target that are DDD, 24bit dirived recordings--very well recorded/engineered.

[ken brydson]

herlifebal reported. What's with all these "polite" spammers these days .....

[steveinaz]

Thank for your posting.....LOL

[steveinaz]

Got her dialed in. Another disc I used extensively was Blue Man Group.