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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by mantis View Post
    Ok , what are they are you talking about? When you strip the conductor with lets say a 16g wire stripper , the internal conductors are left with Polyurethane Insulation left over? I don't get it? If this is true then it would be true internally of the conductor from beginning to end.
    Signal travels on the outside of the conductor , we all know that , so how is it when you strip the insulation off , it's still on the end?

    The Cardas 15.5 gauge wire I used has an outer jacket of Teflon. The wire consists of 48 strands of copper. Each strand is coated with polyurethane.

    Quote Originally Posted by mantis View Post
    I ask this as I have built thousands of cables over the years and never had this issue. My other question here is these cables you purchased didn't come in a 2 conductor form? They are single conductors? Most speaker wires shield themselves with each conductor inside the Dielectric with a twisted pair design. This shields itself from EMI and RF while traveling a given distance.

    From the looks of your pic's , it looks to me like you purchased single 15.5 conductors. I don't see the benefit of this unless your running single runs to things. I would use a 2 conductor pair inside a jacket of some kind even inside a speaker cabinet. I would find that to be where some benefits would be found. Did Cardas suggest using said conductors?
    Cardas chassis (hookup) wire is single conductor wire which is used for electronics projects. It is not designed specifically for wiring speakers, although that is one of its recommended uses. I had to make cable pairs and bind them together with cable ties. The stock wiring uses single conductor 16 gauge wires with different colot jackets (black, white, blue, green) which are bound together into two-wire configurations with cable ties.


    Quote Originally Posted by mantis View Post
    I thought using the stainless steel brush is for removing the Litz coating. From Cardas your suppose to use soldered connections to Burn off the Litz coating. I'm on the fence with this entire technology. I'd like to learn more about Cardas , we carry it and have reps that I can have long conversations about these technologies and learn more.
    I terminate Cardas in the field all the time, we use Crosslink which is very nice wire. I never soldered any of my connections , I always use Pressure termination Banana or Spade connections. I have some Crosslink at the store right now I want to bring home and test the hell out of. But I'm starting to wonder if I have been doing my customers an injustice by not burning the ends. I'm gonna put in a call to our rep.
    To get ALL of the polyurethane coating off, you must use hot solder to burn it off.
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
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  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schurkey View Post
    Unless I'm misled by some trick of scale, I bet an $11-or-less GM Weatherpack removal tool would work perfectly to dig the pins back out of the terminal blocks.
    If you have one of the Weatherpack contact extration tools, would you measure the inside and outside diameter of the end? Thanks. The inside diameter of the AMP block tubes is ~4 mm. The outside diameter of the AMP socket contacts is ~2.5 mm. The inside diameter of the AMP extration tool is 2.74 mm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schurkey View Post
    Just to nit-pick...The rearmost "fingers" of the pin terminal (in the GM world, anyway) are intended to grip the wire's insulation or a special silicone seal that keeps moisture (weather) out of the connector assembly.
    This is true outside of GM also.
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
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  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schurkey View Post
    I've got z-e-r-o experience with the AMP connectors and pins.

    On the other hand, I've build a zillion GM Weatherpack wire harnesses.

    Looks to me like the AMP pins are merely GM Weatherpack pins--or a close copy--that are then installed into a proprietary plastic block.

    Unless I'm misled by some trick of scale, I bet an $11-or-less GM Weatherpack removal tool would work perfectly to dig the pins back out of the terminal blocks.

    Close as the nearest auto parts house--NAPA, CarQuest, etc. NAPA p/n NW 725153
    http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Ca...153_0312357064


    or
    http://www.amazon.com/Delphi-Packard.../dp/B000IIY56E

    Essentially the same tool is available on eBay for ~$5 with free shipping. Search for "Weatherpack Tool"

    In the same vein, one of the many styles of GM Weatherpack crimp tools would serve to make the special "W-crimp" around the bare wire that those connectors appreciate


    Just to nit-pick...

    The rearmost "fingers" of the pin terminal (in the GM world, anyway) are intended to grip the wire's insulation or a special silicone seal that keeps moisture (weather) out of the connector assembly. (the silicone seal would not be applicable when installing the wire into the AMP plastic connector block, I'm sure) Those rearmost fingers are not intended to grip the bare wire. Electrical contact with the wire is made with the smaller crimpable section just forward of the larger "fingers". This supports the wire better, reducing stress on the metal conductors.

    They sell a tool for removing these pins from the connector on McMaster Carr.. A little pricey but worth it IMO!!

  4. #34

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    Default R-4602

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    This is the one I own and it is the best!! I don't remember what McMaster Carr's number is. I can look for it later..

  5. #35

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    McMaster Carr # is 7867K32

  6. #36

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    Weatherpack pins and seals--I'm assuming that the AMP pins are essentially identical. Both the pins and the seals are specific to a wire gauge range. The seals have small, medium, or large holes for the wire to go through. The arrows point out the visible difference in the pins--three small fingers for small wire, two medium fingers for larger wire.



    Arrow showing "W-crimp", with rear fingers not yet crimped around the silicone seal. I'd think that crimping them directly to the insulation would require clipping the fingers shorter with a side-cutter or somesuch before squeezing them around the insulation. In the Weatherpack world, the longer fingers are needed to go around the neck of the silicone seal.


    With the rear fingers holding the insulation, bending stress is removed from the actual wire conductor at the terminal interface, improving fatigue resistance.
    Last edited by Schurkey; 12-14-2012 at 11:37 PM.

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    If you have one of the Weatherpack contact extration tools, would you measure the inside and outside diameter of the end? Thanks. The inside diameter of the AMP block tubes is ~4 mm. The outside diameter of the AMP socket contacts is ~2.5 mm. The inside diameter of the AMP extration tool is 2.74 mm.
    Missed this...I will measure my tool this weekend.


    And also get the dimensions you requested, too. :)

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schurkey View Post
    Missed this...I will measure my tool this weekend.


    And also get the dimensions you requested, too. :)
    Thanks. I found the spec sheet, with dimensions, for the AMP contact removal tool on the Mouser.com website. Mouser also sells the Weatherpack tool, but the link to its spec sheet goes to the Delphi website and I could not find a document that had the dimensions of the Weatherpack tool.
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
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  9. #39

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    ....

  10. #40

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    To get ALL of the polyurethane coating off, you must use hot solder to burn it off.
    If you are going to try and use Cardas wire, I have found the best method is to dip the stripped ends in a solder pot. It works perfectly.
    I smell ass, burning ass, glowing cherry red spanked ass.

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  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by amulford View Post
    If you are going to try and use Cardas wire, I have found the best method is to dip the stripped ends in a solder pot. It works perfectly.
    Yes, that is the method recommended by Cardas.
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
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  12. #42

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    OK, how would it work dipping your wire in the solder pot? I assume it would need solder melted in the pot and by dipping the wire you are melting off the jacket and tinning the wire at the same time ?
    Speakers: SDA-1C (most all the goodies)
    Preamp: Joule Electra LA-150 MKII SE
    Amp: Wright WPA 50-50 EAT KT88s
    Analog: Marantz TT-15S1 MBS Glider SL| Wright WPP100C Amperex BB 6er5 and 7316 & WPM-100 SUT
    Digital: Mac mini 2.3GHz dual-core i5 8g RAM 1.5 TB HDD Music Server Amarra (memory play) - USB - W4S DAC 2
    Cables: Mits S3 IC and Spk cables| PS Audio PCs

    Ofc: Wright WLA12 preamp: Anthem Amp 1: Pio Elite DV-79AVI: Airport Express: CAL Sigma II DAC: PA LS90 sonicaps and mills

  13. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by thsmith View Post
    OK, how would it work dipping your wire in the solder pot? I assume it would need solder melted in the pot and by dipping the wire you are melting off the jacket and tinning the wire at the same time ?

    Yep but you still want to scrape off the coating as much as you can..

  14. #44

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    Sonic Improvements

    After a rough start, everything turned out well. All of the original wire in my SDA SRS 1.2TL's has been replaced with Cardas 15.5 AWG copper Litz wire. I realized the following benefits over the stock wire:

    1. Heavier stereophonic images.
    2. More depth.
    3. Heavier, more detailed, more articulate bass.
    4. More overall clarity and instrumental detail. I hear vocal and instrumental details I didn't hear before.
    5. More tactile sensation.

    Cost

    This modification was very inexpensive, as far as high end modifications go, but was very time consuming. It was more than worth it though. The cost for wire and connectors was $287. Fifty hours of labor was required.

    Polyurethane Insulation Removal

    The Cardas 15.5 AWG chassis wire I used consists of 48 strands of high purity polished copper. Each strand is coated with polyurethane varnish. The wire bundle is jacketed in Teflon insulation.

    The best way of removing the polyurethane varnish from the individual wire strands is stripping off the Teflon outer jacket, fanning out the individual strands and dipping them into a solder pot. This will burn off the polyurethane and dilute the burned residue it so that it does not recontaminate the wire. I would still recommend grinding or scraping off the polyurethane prior to dipping in the solder pot.

    The second best way of removing the polyurethane varnish from the individual wire strands is to fan them out and scour them with a Dremel carbon steel wire brush and then burn off the residual polyurethane missed with solder. A small amount of burned polyurethane will bubble up, but this will be much smaller than the amount that would bubble up if the wires had not been previously scrubbed. My 40 watt soldering wand did not work well on this wire. The low heat (100 watt) setting on my Weller soldering gun did not work well either. I had to use the 140 watt setting.

    The third best way is to use a soldering gun only (with no prior scraping or grinding). The solder used was Cardas Quad-Eutectic.

    Since grinding or scraping off the polyurethane coating are popular methods, I thought it would be of benefit to post resistance measurements between the stock wire, Cardas wire with brushed ends and Cardas wire with brushed and soldered ends.



    Discussion of Results

    Prior internal wire replacements on SDA's (SDA 1B and SDA CRS+) did not yield any audible differences. In those cases the 16 gauge stock wire was replaced with 10 gauge Monster Cable. I was expecting little, if any, sonic improvement with this modification. Based on the improvements in stereophony and holography brought by this modification, I am interested in trying better quality internal wiring, such as AudioQuest's GO-4 speaker cable...but I'll have to find a good deal on it!
    Last edited by DarqueKnight; 12-16-2012 at 05:08 PM.
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
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  15. #45

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    DK -

    Is there any preference between going with the Cardas Internal Wiring versus the Neotech OCC Copper and OCC Silver wiring? Would you make any distinction between solid wiring versus stranded wire?

    I am sure a good deal can be offered when Sonic Craft offers a 20% discount.

    Thanks for your research in this matter. I can safely say for all of us that we all appreciate the time you took in doing this!!!
    Statistics show that 98% of us will die at some point in our lifetime.

    The other 2% will work for WalMart.

  16. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    Sonic Improvements

    After a rough start, everything turned out well. All of the original wire in my SDA SRS 1.2TL's has been replaced with Cardas 15.5 AWG copper Litz wire. I realized the following benefits over the stock wire:

    1. Heavier stereophonic images.
    2. More depth.
    3. Heavier, more detailed, more articulate bass.
    4. More overall clarity and instrumental detail. I hear vocal and instrumental details I didn't hear before.
    5. More tactile sensation.

    Cost

    This modification was very inexpensive, as far as high end modifications go, but was very time consuming. It was more than worth it though. The cost for wire and connectors was $287. Fifty hours of labor was required.

    Polyurethane Insulation Removal

    The Cardas 15.5 AWG chassis wire I used consists of 48 strands of high purity polished copper. Each strand is coated with polyurethane varnish. The wire bundle is jacketed in Teflon insulation.

    The best way of removing the polyurethane varnish from the individual wire strands is stripping off the Teflon outer jacket, fanning out the individual strands and dipping them into a solder pot. This will burn off the polyurethane and dilute the burned residue it so that it does not recontaminate the wire. I would still recommend grinding or scraping off the polyurethane prior to dipping in the solder pot.

    The second best way of removing the polyurethane varnish from the individual wire strands is to fan them out and scour them with a Dremel carbon steel wire brush and then burn off the residual polyurethane missed with solder. A small amount of burned polyurethane will bubble up, but this will be much smaller than the amount that would bubble up if the wires had not been previously scrubbed. My 40 watt soldering wand did not work well on this wire. The low heat (100 watt) setting on my Weller soldering gun did not work well either. I had to use the 140 watt setting.

    The third best way is to use a soldering gun only (with no prior scraping or grinding). The solder used was Cardas Quad-Eutectic.

    Since grinding or scraping off the polyurethane coating are popular methods, I thought it would be of benefit to post resistance measurements between the stock wire, Cardas wire with brushed ends and Cardas wire with brushed and soldered ends.



    Discussion of Results

    Prior internal wire replacements on SDA's (SDA 1B and SDA CRS+) did not yield any audible differences. In those cases the 16 gauge stock wire was replaced with 10 gauge Monster Cable. I was expecting little, if any, sonic improvement with this modification. Based on the improvements in stereophony and holography brought by this modification, I am interested in trying better quality internal wiring, such as AudioQuest's GO-4 speaker cable...but I'll have to find a good deal on it!
    I can't speak for your wallet and if it's worth the sound benefits but IMO I have found so far dollar to dollar Audioquest outperforms Cardas in all areas. I'm gearing up for a pretty long weekend shootout between Cardas and Audioquest to see if my statement holds true over a few different products or if Cardas will outperform the Audioquest versions. Not to take anything away from Cardas as they seem to really pay attention to details when building there cables. I however have yet to become a huge fan and I have been Installing Cardas for over 4 years now along side of Audioquest. I just don't see or hear the benefits from there cables over others in the price class. I also feel Kimber Kable outperforms them as Kimber Kable is probably one of the finest cables on the market.

    I'm actually gonna order some Go-4's for external use. I have yet to try that cable.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.

  17. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by PolkMaster1 View Post
    DK -

    Is there any preference between going with the Cardas Internal Wiring versus the Neotech OCC Copper and OCC Silver wiring? Would you make any distinction between solid wiring versus stranded wire?

    I am sure a good deal can be offered when Sonic Craft offers a 20% discount.

    Thanks for your research in this matter. I can safely say for all of us that we all appreciate the time you took in doing this!!!
    The only thing I know about the Neotech wire is what I read in this and similar threads:

    Quote Originally Posted by Face View Post
    Or a very hot iron and a lot of patience.

    Cardas chassis wire has a smooth, relaxed sound to it. For a more detailed sound, use Neotech solid core. The Neotech mush be braided and is also a PITA to work with also.
    The Cardas wire didn't sound smoother than my 1.2TL's stock wire, just more detailed overall.
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  18. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by mantis View Post
    I can't speak for your wallet and if it's worth the sound benefits but IMO I have found so far dollar to dollar Audioquest outperforms Cardas in all areas. I'm gearing up for a pretty long weekend shootout between Cardas and Audioquest to see if my statement holds true over a few different products or if Cardas will outperform the Audioquest versions. Not to take anything away from Cardas as they seem to really pay attention to details when building there cables. I however have yet to become a huge fan and I have been Installing Cardas for over 4 years now along side of Audioquest. I just don't see or hear the benefits from there cables over others in the price class. I also feel Kimber Kable outperforms them as Kimber Kable is probably one of the finest cables on the market.

    I'm actually gonna order some Go-4's for external use. I have yet to try that cable.
    I ordered 80 feet of AudioQuest GO-4 speaker cable and it should be here in a few days. The GO-4 is 6X the cost of the Cardas, so it will be interesting to see how it compares. One of the AQ dealers I requested a quote from tried to talk me out of getting the GO-4. He asked me to consider the Type 4 instead. He said the GO-4 would be overkill for interal speaker wiring and Type 4 is 1/3 the price.
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  19. #49

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    Maybe I missed it but who made the original wiring for Polk during 1985-1990?

  20. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Face View Post
    Cardas chassis wire has a smooth, relaxed sound to it. For a more detailed sound, use Neotech solid core. The Neotech mush be braided and is also a PITA to work with also.
    I am experienced with braiding Neotech Wiring.
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  21. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by PolkieMan View Post
    Maybe I missed it but who made the original wiring for Polk during 1985-1990?
    Made by Allied Wire and Cable.

    UL Style 1015 Hookup Wire
    16 AWG Stranded Tinned Copper Wire
    PVC Insulation
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  22. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    Made by Allied Wire and Cable.

    UL Style 1015 Hookup Wire
    16 AWG Stranded Tinned Copper Wire
    PVC Insulation
    Would tinned copper wire make it an alloy, compromising the purity of the copper cable? Is there any benificial properties that tinned copper gives over a pure copper wire?

    For us audio purists, I would want a pure copper wire used in my audio and video connections.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PolkMaster1 View Post
    Would tinned copper wire make it an alloy, compromising the purity of the copper cable?
    Tinning is just an airtight protective coating over the copper. An alloy would be an actual mixture of the two, which would compromise the purity of the copper.


    Quote Originally Posted by PolkMaster1 View Post
    Is there any benificial properties that tinned copper gives over a pure copper wire?
    1. Resists corrosion from environmental moisture.

    2. Lasts up to 10 times longer than non-tinned wire.

    3. Better conductivity than bare copper wire.
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    I ordered 80 feet of AudioQuest GO-4 speaker cable and it should be here in a few days. The GO-4 is 6X the cost of the Cardas, so it will be interesting to see how it compares. One of the AQ dealers I requested a quote from tried to talk me out of getting the GO-4. He asked me to consider the Type 4 instead. He said the GO-4 would be overkill for interal speaker wiring and Type 4 is 1/3 the price.
    Type 4 speaker cable is fantastic as I have used it many times personally and professionally. It's one hell of a good sounding cable. But it's not perfect surface , it's long grain copper.
    I'd like to hear internal and external Go-4 from amp to drivers , I believe this would yield the best overall results in your test. I'm assuming you didn't order enough to build a pair of speakers wires externally right?
    Dan
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    Quote Originally Posted by mantis View Post
    Type 4 speaker cable is fantastic as I have used it many times personally and professionally. It's one hell of a good sounding cable. But it's not perfect surface , it's long grain copper.
    I'd like to hear internal and external Go-4 from amp to drivers , I believe this would yield the best overall results in your test. I'm assuming you didn't order enough to build a pair of speakers wires externally right?
    I ordered a little more GO-4 than what was required. Each speaker requires 39 feet of wire.

    My speaker cables are AudioQuest Everest: 9 gauge perfect surface silver.
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    Tinning is just an airtight protective coating over the copper. An alloy would be an actual mixture of the two, which would compromise the purity of the copper.




    1. Resists corrosion from environmental moisture.

    2. Lasts up to 10 times longer than non-tinned wire.

    3. Better conductivity than bare copper wire.
    Thanks for the info. This changes my viewpoint of "tinned copper". Much appreciated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    If you have one of the Weatherpack contact extration tools, would you measure the inside and outside diameter of the end? Thanks. The inside diameter of the AMP block tubes is ~4 mm. The outside diameter of the AMP socket contacts is ~2.5 mm. The inside diameter of the AMP extration tool is 2.74 mm.
    Quote Originally Posted by Schurkey View Post
    Missed this...I will measure my tool this weekend.


    And also get the dimensions you requested, too. :)
    Better late than never???


    2.95 mm


    3.30 mm


    0.13 mm

    3.30 - 0.13 - 0.13 = 3.04 mm ID. Looks like the Weatherpack terminals are just a bit bigger than the AMP terminals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schurkey View Post
    Better late than never???
    3.30 - 0.13 - 0.13 = 3.04 mm ID. Looks like the Weatherpack terminals are just a bit bigger than the AMP terminals.
    Thanks.
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
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    Default More Cable Fun!

    The AudioQuest GO-4 wire is here. I ordered 80 feet, but AQ threw in an extra 4 feet. AQ shipped my order the same day they received it (Tuesday) and I received the wire on Saturday. I wondered why the box was so big: the cable was neatly coiled and shrink-wrapped around a wooden spool, then the spool was wrapped in thick wads of kraft paper.

    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
    __________________
    "Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK

  30. #60

    Member Sales Rating: (22)

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    Oct 2008
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    Directly over the center of the earth in Olathe Kansas
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    Whats the AQ going for? I see it on 1 site for $15 a foot.
    Speakers: SDA-1C (most all the goodies)
    Preamp: Joule Electra LA-150 MKII SE
    Amp: Wright WPA 50-50 EAT KT88s
    Analog: Marantz TT-15S1 MBS Glider SL| Wright WPP100C Amperex BB 6er5 and 7316 & WPM-100 SUT
    Digital: Mac mini 2.3GHz dual-core i5 8g RAM 1.5 TB HDD Music Server Amarra (memory play) - USB - W4S DAC 2
    Cables: Mits S3 IC and Spk cables| PS Audio PCs

    Ofc: Wright WLA12 preamp: Anthem Amp 1: Pio Elite DV-79AVI: Airport Express: CAL Sigma II DAC: PA LS90 sonicaps and mills

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