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  1. #31

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    On cable ends, what you can do is:
    Strip back 1/8 to 3/16 inch of bare copper and solder tin the end. Then strip back another 1/2 inch of bare copper. Install so that the bare copper is under the screw.

  2. #32

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    Thank you, Trey & Speedskater.

    I think I understand your advice, but let me make sure:

    1) It is a good idea to "twist" the two wires in the double run over the full length of the run -- that is, 15' +. How I will manage to maintain the twist is still an issue.

    2) The ends -- bare wires -- of the neutral, line and ground wires from the two runs should be twisted together -- respectively -- before inserting each pair of twisted ends into the appropriate clamp in the plugs. In other words, I should not try to insert the bare wire from one run on one side of the clamping screw and the bare wire from the other run on the opposite side of the clamping screw.

    3) If the twisted ends of the neutral, line and ground wires are tinned, I should only tin them on the tips of the twisted bare wires, and I should ensure that the bare wire is clamped and that no part of the tinned wire is under the clamp. This indicates that after tinning, I should trim the tinned ends to as short a length as possible while still keeping the twisted bare wires compact enough to facilitate insertion into the clamps.

    Twisting two 13 AWG bare wires together will yield a wire size equivalent to a 9 AWG wire; so, inserting the twisted wires into the clamping mechanisms -- designed for a maximum wire size of 10 AWG wire -- would likely still pose a challenge. Tinning the tips should be helpful.

    Have I got this right?

    Thanks, again.
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  3. #33

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    When I wrote 'solder tin' I meant joining all the wire strands together with solder. Not the 'tin plating' on each strand.

    Maintaining the twisting on a pair can be a problem. But the twist is not rocket science. It can be very irregular and still work.

    All the Hots & Neutrals carrying the same signal can be twisted together. For bi-wired speakers twisting the Bass & Treble separately might be slightly better.

    For AC power lines. Twist the Hot and Neutral together but not the Safety Ground (EGC/PE).

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    Speedsketer,

    Thank you. Got it!

    Just out of curiosity, why do you not twist the "Safety Ground" wires together on a double run power cord?

    I'm not doubting this, just trying to fill in another gap in my knowledge!

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    Because it forms a parasitic transformer and picks up noise from the power line. Are you interested in the technical Bill Whitlock papers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedskater View Post
    Because it forms a parasitic transformer and picks up noise from the power line. Are you interested in the technical Bill Whitlock papers?
    If they are available online, please give me links, and I shall see if I can understand them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moose68Bash View Post
    If they are available online, please give me links, and I shall see if I can understand them.
    Did a Google search and found several. "Audio Transformers" sounds interesting. I downloaded it and will see if I can understand it.
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  8. #38

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    Default Double-run Supra LoRad PCs for CD Player and Preamp Completed!

    Last Friday and into Sturday morning I finally completed building two 15' + power cords to serve my Cambridge Audio CD player and Perreaux preamp in my main rig.

    As is apparent in this thread, I relied on sound (pun intended) advice from pepster, speedskater, drumminman, heliopilotdoug, and especially Try, who suggested using the duoble run of Supra LoRad to achieve 9 AWG capacity without the cost of far more expensive wire -- e.g., the Furutech wire I used in my PCs for the monoblocks.

    Most important, although I was too d**ned impatient to use the "burn in box" I purchased from Pepster when I completed installing these cords at about 2:00am on Saturday morning, the sonic results immediately after installation was remarkable -- far better than I expected. One reason that I could not use the burn in box conveniently was that these cables had to be installed through the floor and the base of a cabinet without the IEC plugs installed because the plugs would not pass through the holes for the cables in the floor. Perhaps, stupidly, but I planned it this way.

    The improvements I noted immediately kept me up till after 3:00am because every track to which I listened was so improved that I got addicted to the high from the sound I heard. "Olympic Fanfare" from "Pomp & Pizazz" was clear, properly bright and stirring, with excellent resolution and fast transients. The soundstage was better defined, and as the lead passed from one section of the orchestra to another the rendition was as it would be in a live performance.

    With vocals in Rebecca Pidgeon's recording of "Spanish Harlem" the sound was rich, clear, moving and precisely located on the soundstage. David Johannsen's "Shaker" album was rendered with the complexity of rhythms and depth of bass that I love in that album.

    However, the real test came just before I started posting this and continues as I type.

    I had been resisting the temptation to put these new PCs to the toughest test I can imagine for my rig (given my music preferences) -- that is, listening to Sir Georg Solti conducting the Chicago Symphony Orchestra's performance of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony. Having listened to the Ninth, I'm now listening to the Sixth ("Pastoral"). With a few hours of listening on the new PCs, I decided to take the plunge.

    In sum, I can say that I finally have achieved -- with all the mods and equipment upgrades that I have undertaken -- the result I was seeking (or the closest approximation to it that I can imagine). The soundstage now approximates the experience of a live orchestra performing in front of me. The transitions among the lead parts of the orchestra are clear and distinct, and each section of the orchestra appears to be properly placed on the soundstage with respect to side to side placement, top to bottom placement and front to back placement. The timbre of the various sections is clear and distinct, as are the transients with in the sections. I can hear the violas, the move to the violins, the transitions to the horns and woodwinds, for example. The bass violins, cellos, and percussion parts are extraordinarily realistic. Perhaps above all, when the bass and other vocals enter in the fourth movement the effect is moving, incredible -- just as I recall having felt when I heard the Chicago Symphony play the Ninth when I was a graduate student in Chicago.

    Thanks to all who helped me with this project. I would not and probably could not have done this project without the suggestions and advice of all those mentioned above.

    Some pictures are attached. I confess, as I was pushing through completing this project, which turned out to be a bit more complex than I expected and took me into the wee hours of the morning, I got a little lazy about photographic documentation. My excuse was that I kept saying to myself, "Just how interested can the far more knowledgeable guys on the Forum be in the process of building two PCs?"
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    Last edited by Moose68Bash; 06-18-2013 at 11:46 AM.
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  9. #39

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    Nice work Moose. From your description the results make it a very worthwhile project. As someone once said, everything matters.

    Getting ready to build another PC myself. Gonna take out the shielded Belden cable and replace it with a Chris VH unshielded Flavor 2 to my DAC. I read somewhere that unshielded PC's can sound better on DAC's.

    We'll see . . . . .
    "Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills, polyswitches removed, Lg Solen inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR BP's, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheet strips installed on back wall behind MW's & Tweeters, interior of cabinets sealed, AI-1 interface with 1000VA A-L transformer

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moose68Bash View Post
    One reason that I could not use the burn in box conveniently was that these cables had to be installed through the floor and the base of a cabinet without the IEC plugs installed because the plugs would not pass through the holes for the cables in the floor. Perhaps, stupidly, but I planned it this way.
    Since these DIY cords are partly hidden in the floor and cabinet base, is the power cable you are using rated for in wall/branch circuit use, like JPS Labs and Cardas AC in-wall cables ?
    Main system: Denon DP-59L | Audio-Technica AT33EV | Marantz Reference Series SA-11S2 | Classé CP-50, modified | Classé CA-300, modified | Classé DR-10, modified | Classé RC-1 | PSB Stratus Gold i's | DIY Balanced AC Power Conditioner with surge/spike suppression | Acoustic Zen and NeoTech cables | Oyaide and Furutech AC power connectors and receptacles | Hi-Fi Tuning Supreme fuses | Dedicated 20A IG AC line

  11. #41

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    drumminman,

    Thank you! The final sound is everything in the rabbit hole!

    Because I use my CA Azur 84C as a DAC, I'll be interested to hear whether unshielded PC cord does make a difference. However, unless I can do an A to B comparison using my equipment, it may be hard to conclude anything. Differences may be peculiar to the equipment being connected with the PCs.

    Glen, with respect to the "in wall/branch" rating, I don't know, and although I thought about it, I decided not to look into it. The PCs pass perpendicularly through the base of the cabinet, into which I installed a standard floor box for aesthetic reasons, and then directly through the floor below into the basement, where my Silver Circle Audio One 5.0 power conditioner is installed on a dedicated circuit that provides mains current for the CD player, preamp, and two monoblocks, all of which are plugged into the Silver Circle One.. The monoblocks are in the basement. Because the distance between the point at which the PCs enter the top of the floor box and where they emerge through the subflooring in the basement is less that a foot and that space is a fairly large void under the cabinet base, I decided it should not be a problem.

    Thanks, guys.
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  12. #42
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    I've heard that most people who build cables themselves fail miserably.

    When it comes to cables and power cables let the professionals / artists do the job. If you build it the sound will be worse.


    cheezy

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    Why don't you neck yourself cheezy? Seriously...I will even send you the rope considering your recent financial woes.
    "Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip
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  14. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by cheezy View Post
    I've heard ....

    cheezy
    I've heard a lot of things, too. A good many of them have proven to be very wide of the mark when it comes to accuracy.

    If you invest in the right tools and take the time to learn how to use them and if you take time to do some practice runs, I think you can enjoy both success and satisfaction in having done it yourself.

    And, of course, the guys on this Forum are very willing to give you good advice!
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  15. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by cheezy View Post
    I've heard that most people who build cables themselves fail miserably.

    When it comes to cables and power cables let the professionals / artists do the job. If you build it the sound will be worse.


    cheezy
    Cheezy, just stop before you get in more hot water.

    Moose: I would PM pepster or helipilotdoug. Both have made MANY different types of powercords and should be able to help you figure out the parts and architecture you want to use to achieve the result you want.

    helipilotdoug also sells some of the parts you might want to use to build your cable and I believe gives us a Polkie a 10% discount...
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  16. #46

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    Endershadow,

    Thank you.

    Helipilotdoug and pepster have been very helpful and generous with their very sound advice.

    With their help I've finished my cables, and I am very happy with the results.
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  17. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moose68Bash View Post
    Because I use my CA Azur 84C as a DAC, I'll be interested to hear whether unshielded PC cord does make a difference. However, unless I can do an A to B comparison using my equipment, it may be hard to conclude anything. Differences may be peculiar to the equipment being connected with the PCs.
    What piqued my interest is someone on AA replace their shielded cord with an unshielded one on their DAC, and felt that it was a definite improvement. The speculation was that a stand alone dac operates mainly in the analog domain so shielding adversely affects the sound quality. Not sure how this would apply to a CDP used as a transport. Once I have my cord made and burned in (final parts should arrive today), I'll post the results.

    Quote Originally Posted by cheezy View Post
    I've heard that most people who build cables themselves fail miserably.

    When it comes to cables and power cables let the professionals / artists do the job. If you build it the sound will be worse.


    cheezy
    I recommend that you test your assumptions. My experience has been the opposite of this.
    "Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills, polyswitches removed, Lg Solen inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR BP's, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheet strips installed on back wall behind MW's & Tweeters, interior of cabinets sealed, AI-1 interface with 1000VA A-L transformer

  18. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheezy View Post
    I've heard that most people who build cables themselves fail miserably.

    When it comes to cables and power cables let the professionals / artists do the job. If you build it the sound will be worse.


    cheezy
    Geeze.......

    Looks like Mr Patrick lost his forum on AA.
    Wonder why?

    I like unshielded power cables alot better than shielded, however sometimes it is necessary depending on your location.
    Big city like NYC for example, your better off with shielding, even though the dynamics are limited as a result.

    After all they are just a long antenna.

    Living in the country in the middlle of now where, I can reap the benefits of using a "unshielded" via silver Furutech IEC plug, combined with the smoothness of the Furutech pure copper male plug.

    Deadly combo on digital sources, and really hard to beat on preamps.

    Oyaide makes a Rhodium/silver IEC plug for under $70, and from my experience of their same IEC input cup, I would not hesitate to try one for digital sources.
    Last edited by pepster; 06-19-2013 at 03:23 PM.

  19. #49
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    A simple explanation is, that any, and everything you put on a wire becomes a dielectric, including the tube it is in, Techflex, heatshrink, shielding, ect.

    It all matters when building cables.
    I have found that braiding cables which eliminates alot of interference, and using a drain wire, in power cables, with nothing added is the best route for SQ.
    They look like crap, but boy do they sound good~!

    Nice work Moose, if you need a good recipe to use that cable burner I can show you the way!
    I use mine all the time, and would not build a power cable without one.
    They make a difference if you burn it in right.
    Last edited by pepster; 06-19-2013 at 03:46 PM.

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    The nice thing about this thread is that it shows even a home-made cable is better than the stock power cords that ship with gear.

  21. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by drumminman View Post
    Someone on AA replace their shielded cord with an unshielded one on their DAC, and felt that it was a definite improvement. The speculation was that a stand alone dac operates mainly in the analog domain so shielding adversely affects the sound quality.
    Someone explain how shielded power cord would adversely affect the sound vs unshielded. I'm no dummy (so I thought) but i fail to understand how this would affect the Dac or whatever else it is plugged into. One would think that curtailing any EMI/RF getting into or radiating out would be a good thing.

    OK I guess post 49 explains it...guess that is what i get for being a two finger stabber
    Last edited by pitdogg2; 06-19-2013 at 03:57 PM.

  22. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by cheezy View Post
    I've heard that most people who build cables themselves fail miserably.

    When it comes to cables and power cables let the professionals / artists do the job. If you build it the sound will be worse.


    cheezy
    You're just super angry that you do not have the skills to do it for yourself and spent 5 figures for a power cord. Take a hike off the short end of a LOOOOOONG bridge.

  23. #53
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    Anything you add to a bare insulated wire is going to affect its performance.

    I find a shielded cable has restricted dynamics compared to the EXACT same cable unshielded.
    Less dielectrics, better dynamics in the unshielded cable.

    Just my .02 and I have I prolly built 200 of them.

    Sometimes however shielding is necessary, if it is unshielded it is just a long piece of wire, "antenna" if you will.

    So if you live in a large city, you might want to consider shielding as a way to lower the background noise."Blacker Blacks" for instance.
    Alarm systems, communication towers, phone towers ect.
    The cable is an antenna regardless, if you shield it, it will help in those instances.
    If no shielding you are going to get a better dynamic range.

    If you live in the country, with minor interference, the dynamics gained from the lack of shielding is the way to go, better overall extention on both ends, with a more fluid/3D overall sound.

    That goes for IC's, SC's ect.
    The more you add to a cable, the less dynamics you are going to receive.
    Last edited by pepster; 06-19-2013 at 04:04 PM.

  24. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by pepster View Post
    Nice work Moose, if you need a good recipe to use that cable burner I can show you the way!
    I use mine all the time, and would not build a power cable without one.
    They make a difference if you burn it in right.
    Pepster,

    Thank you. I have the instructions you sent earlier about using the cable burner, and I have already used it on some cables. But it would have been difficult to use it on these PCs because I could not terminate the IEC end till I installed the cables through the floor and into the cabinet where the preamp and CD player are located. At the other end, the only accessible plugs are in the Silver Circle One 5.0 power conditioner.

    I suppose I could have used the cable burner, but I was very impatient (at 2:30am or thereabouts) to hear whether the Supra LoRad PCs with Furutech plugs diminished, maintained, or improved the quality of the sound versus the stock cords and the prototype cables I built with Wattgate plugs and 10 AWG wire from Home Depot.

    I was and continue to be very pleased with the sound!

    Again, thank you for your advice and your interest.
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  25. #55
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    I dunno!
    Not sure your giving it a decent chance, made a many smiles with mine!
    Would never build a PC without it!

    It makes a difference, not night and day, but pretty sweet to where I cannot live without it!
    Last edited by pepster; 06-19-2013 at 11:45 PM.

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    From now on, I will not let my impatience get the better of my desire to get the best sound I can!

    I just couldn't wait to listen!!!!!!

  27. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moose68Bash View Post
    From now on, I will not let my impatience get the better of my desire to get the best sound I can!

    I just couldn't wait to listen!!!!!!
    Its not too late!
    Burn those Jewels!

    100 watt light bulb (or a couple) works wonders after 48 hours!

    The Audiophile term ...... "Musical" comes to mind.

    Last edited by pepster; 06-20-2013 at 12:05 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pitdogg2 View Post
    You're just super angry that you do not have the skills to do it for yourself and spent 5 figures for a power cord. Take a hike off the short end of a LOOOOOONG bridge.
    I'm not angry. I'm smiling and very happy. I spent $3000 on power cables so far. Planning to pickup another one for my PC power supply. That's another $3000. I am so thankful that I can get them for so cheap considering the manufacturing build cost is 20 times or more, and the "retail" performance price is $350,000.00. There are no other manufacturers in the world that can come close to the level of White Night Power cables. Heck, even Patrick's lowest end cable ($1 starting price) outperforms the $50,000.00 Virtual Dynamics Judge power cable.. These are truly magical cables that provide, magic. It puts you in a whole different world and dimensions. More like sound you can hear from outer planet by aliens that specialize in audio. Alien-class.

    I may sound absurd but I am being honest here and describing how they sound. I am so glad I didn't go with any other manufacturers or anyone else who make their own cables and sell them as they take shortcut on parts to build. Most importantly they don't know what they are doing when they build the cables.

    I will be Patrick's customer forever.

    cheez
    Last edited by cheezy; 06-20-2013 at 11:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moose68Bash View Post
    Last Friday and into Sturday morning I finally completed building two 15' + power cords to serve my Cambridge Audio CD player and Perreaux preamp in my main rig.

    As is apparent in this thread, I relied on sound (pun intended) advice from pepster, speedskater, drumminman, heliopilotdoug, and especially Try, who suggested using the duoble run of Supra LoRad to achieve 9 AWG capacity without the cost of far more expensive wire -- e.g., the Furutech wire I used in my PCs for the monoblocks.

    Most important, although I was too d**ned impatient to use the "burn in box" I purchased from Pepster when I completed installing these cords at about 2:00am on Saturday morning, the sonic results immediately after installation was remarkable -- far better than I expected. One reason that I could not use the burn in box conveniently was that these cables had to be installed through the floor and the base of a cabinet without the IEC plugs installed because the plugs would not pass through the holes for the cables in the floor. Perhaps, stupidly, but I planned it this way.

    The improvements I noted immediately kept me up till after 3:00am because every track to which I listened was so improved that I got addicted to the high from the sound I heard. "Olympic Fanfare" from "Pomp & Pizazz" was clear, properly bright and stirring, with excellent resolution and fast transients. The soundstage was better defined, and as the lead passed from one section of the orchestra to another the rendition was as it would be in a live performance.

    With vocals in Rebecca Pidgeon's recording of "Spanish Harlem" the sound was rich, clear, moving and precisely located on the soundstage. David Johannsen's "Shaker" album was rendered with the complexity of rhythms and depth of bass that I love in that album.

    However, the real test came just before I started posting this and continues as I type.

    I had been resisting the temptation to put these new PCs to the toughest test I can imagine for my rig (given my music preferences) -- that is, listening to Sir Georg Solti conducting the Chicago Symphony Orchestra's performance of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony. Having listened to the Ninth, I'm now listening to the Sixth ("Pastoral"). With a few hours of listening on the new PCs, I decided to take the plunge.

    In sum, I can say that I finally have achieved -- with all the mods and equipment upgrades that I have undertaken -- the result I was seeking (or the closest approximation to it that I can imagine). The soundstage now approximates the experience of a live orchestra performing in front of me. The transitions among the lead parts of the orchestra are clear and distinct, and each section of the orchestra appears to be properly placed on the soundstage with respect to side to side placement, top to bottom placement and front to back placement. The timbre of the various sections is clear and distinct, as are the transients with in the sections. I can hear the violas, the move to the violins, the transitions to the horns and woodwinds, for example. The bass violins, cellos, and percussion parts are extraordinarily realistic. Perhaps above all, when the bass and other vocals enter in the fourth movement the effect is moving, incredible -- just as I recall having felt when I heard the Chicago Symphony play the Ninth when I was a graduate student in Chicago.

    Thanks to all who helped me with this project. I would not and probably could not have done this project without the suggestions and advice of all those mentioned above.

    Some pictures are attached. I confess, as I was pushing through completing this project, which turned out to be a bit more complex than I expected and took me into the wee hours of the morning, I got a little lazy about photographic documentation. My excuse was that I kept saying to myself, "Just how interested can the far more knowledgeable guys on the Forum be in the process of building two PCs?"
    If you don't use crystal formula it will sound rough / edgy or too veil. And it requires a lot of tuning. Yours look ghetto.


    cheezy

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    Quote Originally Posted by cheezy View Post
    I spent $3000 on power cables so far. Planning to pickup another one for my PC power supply. That's another $3000. I am so thankful that I can get them for so cheap considering the manufacturing build cost is 20 times or more, and the "retail" performance price is $350,000.00. There are no other manufacturers in the world that can come close to the level of White Night Power cables.
    I will be Patrick's customer forever.

    cheez
    Your delusional to say the least if you think anyone would take 57,000.00 loss on a product. SUPER DELUSIONAL if you think they are $350,000.00 cables.

    welcome to the BOZO list

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