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  1. #1

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    Default Midrange placement

    Sounds funny to ask this question but I'm kind of torn.

    I have a '98 camaro. The way its set up, the rear speaker placement is actually closer to the front passengers than the front locations. Its also not confined to a cockpit-like area. Last time I had the speakers installed, I had them in the rear location because somebody ripped out the driver side speaker (along w/ the rest of my gear) and did some decent damage to the fiberglass in the door.

    I had to rip apart my car b/c of standing water and ended up ripping everything out. I decided to make some baffles to put the speakers in the door, hoping to get better SQ.

    I've been listening to it for about 3 weeks now and I'm not feeling like the SQ is where it used to be when they were in the rear location. I would think it would have something to do w/ them not being tucked away by the pedals and in open air at ear level (even though the headrest blocks the direct path of the sound).

    Is this possible, or is this more of a case of clouded memory?

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    Some pic's of your install and a list of your equipment, would be great for a start.

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    Raining outside. Here's some pics from online.




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    there's a lot to understand about SQ. it is impossible to write all the ideas here. you will need to Google further on the ideas i have on SQ.

    the ideology with an SQ setup IMHO is to recreate the 'live sound' experience or the studio feel for the particular music you're enjoying. both these situations place the listener in front of the stage's mid-point.

    solo speakers in the rear completely reverses this experience. Your observations that the speakers sound better lead me to think that they are louder and clearer. When the speakers are placed up front, I've found that tonality is sacrificed (due to increased absorption and reflections) and that the intensity (loudness) is reduced.

    However, since they as far away from the listener (in an automobile), the "path length difference (PLD)" is at it's greatest and hence the listener is approximately in the middle with the musicians in front of him/her. This is one of the BIG goals of SQ.

    Angling your speakers in your "kick panel" or door will help tremendously to overcome the challenges or reduced tonality and loudness. "Tonality" is the BIGGEST goals of SQ (IMHO). Moving the tweeters up onto the "A-pillar" or front door (as far forward in the best sounding location) will bring your "sound stage" higher. This recreates the scenario of the musicians being (roughly) at eye level.

    The words in quotes are terms you can Google. Some great articles were written by a guy who goes by the name audionutz (SP?). his articles on sound stage, acoustic challenges in a car, tonality, speaker components, speaker placement, crossover setup are all excellent reading info for both the beginner and seasoned audiophile.

    Of course, you will also get a lot of great help here from the more seasoned audio gurus. I'm just starting to learn just as you are. Good luck and stick with it. It takes a lot of time reading and experimenting. (And possibly blowing things up.. heehee )
    Last edited by tk421; 01-29-2010 at 11:20 PM.

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    Everything in that makes sense and is why I was confused. I spent a bit of time listening today and I think what most of the difference comes down to is the door panels. They've been off-again, on-again so many times I don't think theyre as snug as they once were. There are certain CDs i go off of because of recording values and they sounded better today than they have. I still feel like theres a bit of lacking in the midrange. The punch of the midbass is still solid though.

    I know the solution to the problem, I just don't know if I want to invest into all that deadening. Kickpanels are out of the question in a camaro IMO. I may check into Firebird door panels. From what I saw it appears they angle the woofers instead of having them flush w/ the door. I don't know if they have different brackets to angle them in the door or if its just for appearance though.

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    tk's, largely captured it, will just add a couple of points.

    One of the goals of sq is to hear sound as it sounds, live in the studio. Assuming that the recording engineer did a good job, you'd have a good cd. Now its up to you to reproduce it to the best of your ability, so that you get close to the 'live' experience.

    Staging, imaging and tonatlity are key for this experience. All three are equally important for the live sound. Like everything else that have to be well balanced.

    Staging, refers to recreating the physical layout in the studio vis a vis the positioning of the vocalist and the instruments. Normally, the vocalist is always placed at centre stage with the instruments at left and right stage. In a car environment the only way you will get left and right stage equal is to place the vocalist at about the centre of your windscreen. Width and depth of the stage are important. A wide and deep stage will let you put enough space between vocalist and the instruments, again like in the studio. This will allso help with imaging.

    Imaging refers to your brain translating the aural cues to create a picture of the sound. So you're hearing and seeing it.

    Tonality and Timbre, refer to the quality of sound thats reproduced. Does it sound like a piano? (tonality). Does it sound like a 'live piano' (with the resonance at the lower keys and the sparkle at the higher notes?), timbre.

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    Was editing above post, but went past the time limit.

    Your virtual stage should be in 3-d, width, depth and height. The more accurate the aural cues, the clearer and sharper your image will be.

    You have good location for your mids on your front door. Seal the doors, it will be an investment that will give great returns. Fronts+sub+5ch of power+hu that gives tons of tuning options. Your speakers and hu are the most important components.

    Do it in stages. This way you dont compromise on the qualllity of what you buy. Deaden the doors first and then invest in a good hu. Btw what hu are you running? Looks stock.

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    Those pics arent of my car. My buying days are essentially over and I got a kid on the way. That's why I don't really want to invest in the deadening.

    Setup:

    Fronts: MMC6500
    Subs: 2x db124
    Front amp: MTX 564
    Sub amp: MTX 942
    Head Unit: Pioneer deh-p860mp

    I love the HU b/c it has a 3-way active network built in. Right now the 942 is MIA because of a blown diode. It powers on but delivers no sound. So I have the Tweets run off the front channels of my head unit, the mids running from the front channels of the 564, and the subs off the rears of the 564.

    When I have a little extra money the 942 is going to get repaired. Then I will use the fronts for tweets and rears for mids on the 564 (the way I intended it to be run). I have run this setup for 3 years and have not heard much out there that compare. I know there's better, I just haven't gone "looking" for them.

    On a side note, I had replaced my momos with some alpine type-r's because I lost the xovers for the momos and the HU was giving me the fritz. I enjoyed them all of about 30 mins before I got completely aggravated by the lack of detail. Luckily after playing with my HU for about a week it started working again.

    A few days ago I was able to pick up another 860mp from the car toys clearance bin for 125 (orig $600 and 125 is cheaper than repairing). It might just be me, but it seems like they don't focus on the audio as much as they used to in head units. All about the bells and whistles now. I'm excited to be covered for a while w/ a backup HU for when mine finally bites it.

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    Yeah, get the 942 repaired as a first step. You have nice equipment and you seem to be at a certain level. I'm just saying you can go much further. This is based on the fact that this road is endless and also on some of your posts. :)

    Once you go down the sq road, you would outpace 95% of the folks pretty fast. Thats just the way it is. Tuning is a huge part of good sound, bigger than the equipment you run. Which is why your setup would sound better than ones running more expensive equipment.

    However, that is not the goal. At the end of the day, you have to kinda compete with yourself and you have to have a reference point that is well ahead of where you are. This applies to everyone. Since I don't have access to a better sounding car, I use my simple 2ch home setup as my ref point. I'm getting closer to this sound, but my 2ch still wins. My post was not meant to be condescending, I hope it didn't come across that way.

    Sealing your doors as and when you can do it would be great. Your hu has some decent tuning options.

    OT, congrats to the prospective dad. Your life as you know it, is about to change completely. ;) Having kids is the greatest feeling. Even if the first few years are a PIA :D.

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    I have not given up on upgrading. It's just been indefinitely postponed. The only way we have survived the last 2 years is student loans. Thats fine though. I bought the system I have now to be one that wouldn't need replacing 'til I had the income to do so.

    I had to put 2k into the car over christmas just to get it to pass inspection, and there's still work that needs to be done. This is why I have stalemated my desire to go out and see whats out there. I don't want a reason to upgrade right now.

    My only disappointment is I didn't get the SR6500 when I had the chance, simply because they are so hard to find now. Given the opportunity again with the same scenario, I would have made the same choice and gone w/ the mmc's. The SR is what I consider my "end product". Price was still too high for me then though.

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    You're right, the dynamat can wait.

    In the context of your situation, I'm really glad you're focused on the right thing. Yes, the sr's are a big jump on the mmc, but I'm sure they will still be in circulation, a couple of years down the line.

    I hope you'll have a support network (parents) around you. In your situation, you'll will need it. Sounding like a dad comes instinctively in this situation. ;)

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    My child will be very spoiled by grandparents. We have enough means to support a child on our own now luckily. It took a while for wife to find job in the area. They're hard to find in this city for some reason.

    I went on a long drive today and was able to mess around with the stereo quite a bit. Its sounding better and better each day. I'm starting to think it was just clouded memory. It still needs deadening, but the music is crisp and I'm not able to notice any majorly lacking frequencies anymore.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by DSkip View Post
    My child will be very spoiled by grandparents.
    and the dad, I bet. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by DSkip View Post
    I went on a long drive today and was able to mess around with the stereo quite a bit. Its sounding better and better each day. I'm starting to think it was just clouded memory. It still needs deadening, but the music is crisp and I'm not able to notice any majorly lacking frequencies anymore.
    Another who tunes on the go. I know the best results come when I tune, parked at night in the driveway. While driving, I know there's tons of cancellations happening (among other things), yet I tweak now and then. Maybe we all do :).

    To notice defects in your sound, you have to constantly compare your sound against a reference point that's ahead of where you are. However, this whole sq trip is time consuming and can easily occupy a chunk of your mind space. To the point where evry now and then you have to just walk away from it all just so that you can maintain your sanity. ;)

    For now, just enjoy the tunes so that you can give your time to the really important things. Good to have you here.

  14. #14

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    good luck with the family. music is defn 2nd choice at this point.

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