My used separates nightmare (or how I went Emo)

[kuntasensei]

For the record, I'm not saying anything bad about the Adcom. It's just a matter of synergy - whether the amp works well with your particular speakers. And I'm sure for many people, Adcom amps work awesomely well with their speakers... but in my case, having heard the Parasound and Emotiva on the same speakers, the Adcom is just OKAY. Better than the Onkyo's amplification, definitely better at driving lower frequencies, but not particularly revealing as far as the sound goes. The Parasound and Emo, on the other hand, make the speakers SING... and that's what I'm looking for in an amp. If only my Parasound would stay working for long enough for me to enjoy it!

[ZLTFUL]

I find your observations interesting. My very non-audiophile wife who could give 2 craps about my hobbies said the Adcom sounds a lot better than my Emos.

Don't get me wrong, as you stated it perfectly...*YOUR* ears tell you differently.
But my Adcom is a perfect match for my RTA-15TLs compared to the Emo, Yamaha integrated, the Kenwood and Onkyo (the original owner) that I have heard my particular speakers on.

But I feel opposite about my home theater. The Emo is perfectly at home there and I am very happy with its performance in that role.

[teekay0007]

My musician brother happened to come over after I got it all set up...

Sounds like most of the musicians I know...show up after all the heavy lifting is done.

[DSkip]

I find your observations interesting. My very non-audiophile wife who could give 2 craps about my hobbies said the Adcom sounds a lot better than my Emos.

Don't get me wrong, as you stated it perfectly...*YOUR* ears tell you differently.
But my Adcom is a perfect match for my RTA-15TLs compared to the Emo, Yamaha integrated, the Kenwood and Onkyo (the original owner) that I have heard my particular speakers on.

But I feel opposite about my home theater. The Emo is perfectly at home there and I am very happy with its performance in that role.

That might just be synergy. I find the older RT lines to have a very smooth tweeter, which would lend itself well to a brighter amp. Outside of the Peerless and RD tweeters, I don't think the vintage tweeters are as smooth as the RT's were. I'd expect them not to pair up as nicely with the Emo as the 70's do.

[Sherardp]

Congrats on the new gear.

[kuntasensei]

I find your observations interesting. My very non-audiophile wife who could give 2 craps about my hobbies said the Adcom sounds a lot better than my Emos.

Don't get me wrong, as you stated it perfectly...*YOUR* ears tell you differently.
But my Adcom is a perfect match for my RTA-15TLs compared to the Emo, Yamaha integrated, the Kenwood and Onkyo (the original owner) that I have heard my particular speakers on.

But I feel opposite about my home theater. The Emo is perfectly at home there and I am very happy with its performance in that role.

A lot of it is likely due to which speakers I'm using AND the type of music I've played on it so far. I'm not saying the Adcom sounds bad by any stretch... but with bluegrass instruments, I'm liking the way the Emo sounds with those old silk-dome tweeters (I never could stand the sound of the tri-laminate tweeters). Haven't had a chance to throw any rock at it yet, which will be interesting. Of course, the other possibility is that the Adcom simply isn't working the way it should, considering one of the three channels randomly flakes out right now - I've been using it stereo only for my mains. All I know is that the Adcom sounds great for most music but when you get into the upper registers with stringed instruments (violin especially), it gets a very subtle sound to it almost as if someone were dragging a needle across the tweeters. It's very odd... and "grainy" is the only word I can think of to describe it. You also hear it in female voices, especially Alison Krauss and Sara Watkins (of Nickel Creek).

It will be more telling once I've had a chance to re-EQ everything and throw some listening material at it. Right now, it seems like something's a little lacking in mid-bass near the crossover range, so I'm wondering if the equalization in place from when I had the Parasound in the loop is just vastly different than what it needs to be for the Emo. Sounds pretty solid with Audyssey turned off, so I'm hoping the post-EQ result will be even better.

Either way, I'm happy with it... and if the guy ends up fixing the Parasound, BONUS.

[Jhayman]

Either way, I'm happy with it... and if the guy ends up fixing the Parasound, BONUS

and that's all that matters.. :-]

[kuntasensei]

Ran all 8 positions of Audyssey XT. It read my mains and center as 40Hz. Normally, I would dial it up a bit from there, but I figured I'd see how it sounded with the settings Audyssey found. It also set my surrounds to 50Hz all the way around, which is lower than I would normally run them... but considering the receiver is now just powering the 6 surrounds, I left it there to see how it sounds. Music is now sounding vastly better, with mid-bass coming back up to where I expected. The clear highs are still there, but Audyssey seems to have tamed the very top end, giving voices a very natural sound now. Threw a lot of music at it, and I'm pretty happy with the post-equalized sound. As I suspected, a lot of the issues I had with the way it sounded were due to the equalization from when I had the Parasound in place.

Figured I should give the system a workout to see how it fares under stress, so I threw in Super 8 in 7.1 and set it to 9.1 playback using Audyssey DSX. HOLY MOTHER OF GOD. The train scene has always been amazing, but placement of sounds as those train cars flip around the soundscape is impressive. Bass stayed solid as well, and it really seems like running the speakers at lower crossover points has made the sub sound even better for the deep-trolling room-threatening bass. I still need to dial my Buttkicker in to blend better with the sub (it's way too hot right now), but I'm tweaking it as I watch the rest of Super 8 and should have it dialed in to be a subtle addition like I normally like it.

And after brutalizing it with that train scene, the Emo is barely warm. Sound-wise, I'm not ready to give up on the Parasound just yet... but man, the XPA-3 does a good job of holding its own. The slightly brighter character seems to work nicely with movies, so much so that it may be hard going back to the Parasound after this. And that is NOT what I expected.

Either way... big grin on my face. I can enjoy my gear now instead of fretting over it like I have the last 8 months or so.

[Loud & Clear]

The five-year warranty really helps with peace of mind. The UPA-200 for $349 has really impressed me. It's putting out a rated 200w into 4 ohms. My LSi7s really sound nice with this amp. I would buy this amp again if lost or stolen. 12 volt trigger is also handy.

Getting that Adcom 5400 that showed up with distortion in both channels has really soured me on used amps. I'll be getting a refund for most of it - probably lose out on half the shipping - but the time lost, the hassle and disappointment is both irritating and frustrating. And as has been mentioned, these Emotiva people actually answer the phone when you call them, and speak a reasonable brand of english as well. I bought their product through amazon.com. Lacking a tracking number, I phoned Emotiva and an english-speaking woman not only answered the phone, but gave me the tracking number for my amp in a matter of seconds. I like this company better the more I think about them. Hell, I might buy their t-shirts and undershorts.

[kuntasensei]

Heh... I'm not ready to go that far, but the more material I play on this setup, the happier I am. I considered getting a UPA-700 so I can put my 6 surrounds on it... but I think the AVR is doing a pretty solid job on the surrounds/heights. Time to just sit back and LISTEN.

[math wizard]

As some have stated here, hum is sometimes induced by other components. I'm on my 3rd Emotiva amp and am loving them.

[F1nut]

Someone drank a whole pitcher of Kool-Aid.

[Jhayman]

As usual nothing nice to say at all reguarding someone's Happiness with an Emotiva Product..
One can only conclude by your ongoing negativity towards Emo is you are very upset at yourself for drinking the more expensive Kool-Aid when all along Emotiva was there Ready Willing and Able to do the Job.

Someone drank a whole pitcher of Kool-Aid.

[Loud & Clear]

Someone drank something far more expensive than kool-aid, and it doesn't taste any better. ;>}

[kuntasensei]

Yeah, my intention wasn't to stir up the usual anti-Emo snobbery here (which I've railed against long before I ever owned one of their products). I really wanted the Parasounds to work out, and I still think for music, the HCA-2003 has a more refined character to it than the XPA-3. But honestly, the more I watch movies on my rig now, the more I'm convinced that even if the HCA-2003 gets 100% back in action, the XPA-3 is staying put. I've watched Tron Legacy and War Of The Worlds at pretty crazy levels this week, and the sound is insanely cohesive... and never seems lacking for power. As I've said before, I think it's probably just a matter of synergy with these particular speakers and the acoustics of my room... and if that means I'm drinking the Kool-Aid, then you can just put the pitcher down in front of me so I can keep on happily drinking.

I'm not evangelizing or putting down anyone else's choices... Just saying that for the $599 I paid, I'm pretty happy with the way it sounds.

[Jhayman]

Your intention may not have been to stir up the anti-Emo snobbery but F1nut's comment most certainly was to do just that..

Yeah, my intention wasn't to stir up the usual anti-Emo snobbery here (which I've railed against long before I ever owned one of their products). I really wanted the Parasounds to work out, and I still think for music, the HCA-2003 has a more refined character to it than the XPA-3. But honestly, the more I watch movies on my rig now, the more I'm convinced that even if the HCA-2003 gets 100% back in action, the XPA-3 is staying put. I've watched Tron Legacy and War Of The Worlds at pretty crazy levels this week, and the sound is insanely cohesive... and never seems lacking for power. As I've said before, I think it's probably just a matter of synergy with these particular speakers and the acoustics of my room... and if that means I'm drinking the Kool-Aid, then you can just put the pitcher down in front of me so I can keep on happily drinking.

I'm not evangelizing or putting down anyone else's choices... Just saying that for the $599 I paid, I'm pretty happy with the way it sounds.

[F1nut]

My comment was directed at math wizard.

One can only conclude by your ongoing negativity towards Emo is you are very upset at yourself for drinking the more expensive Kool-Aid when all along Emotiva was there Ready Willing and Able to do the Job.

Nice try, not even close. You seem to forget that I have heard your love and a vast number of other gear. Hence, my opinion. Sure, for HT it will do ok as it is MUCH less demanding. For music, no way.

[kuntasensei]

Not trying to poke the bear... but how do you figure home theater is "less demanding" considering modern digital mixes? I would think it's a safe bet that most movies tend to have more 20-60Hz content than any music you'll find short of pipe organs, which would be the bulk of the hard-to-drive content. Also, since movies tend to be mixed for more dynamic range than music, I would also posit that HT would be far more demanding on the need for transient bursts of sound and accurate reproduction at greater levels. Just curious what you mean - not trying to pick a fight or get into... whatever issue you have with math wizard.

[ZLTFUL]

Accuracy. Nuance.
2 things that HT doesn't require.
Reproducing an explosion doesn't require the subtlety and accuracy that reproducing a flute with enough accuracy that the listener can actually hear the valves opening and closing does.

[Jhayman]

I would also like to know if an amp is perfectly fine for HT, then why can't it be perfectly fine for 2 channel?
I mean you are very happy with EMO in HT, I really cannot see what the difference would be.
You either want the best sound that your ears think they hear for all your listening or not.
So why settle for EMO in HT if their are better?
Unless HT is not important to you, if that's the case why use EMO at all just use an $300 AVR.

[Jhayman]

Please tell me what song has the flute valve opening and closeing so I can get it and see if I can hear it..

[Polkie2009]

That's an excellent point Jhayman, HT tends to be loud and proud , I ran my old Crest Audio Professional 4000 amp in my HT and it never broke a sweat, talk about bass:). Ended up buying a used Parasound 1200ii amp from one of our fellow polkies here to run the mains. Now I'm using the Crest P4000 it as a amp for a passive sub cabinet.

[F1nut]

There are subtle's, nuances, tones, details and micro details, decay, imaging and soundstage (the sense of space) in music that make it far more demanding than a movie soundtrack.

[Jhayman]

Well Please F1nut give us A few songs to try our inferior amps on to see if we can hear what you hear..
Just a couple that you believe we won't hear what you hear.

[Dawgfish]

I have to agree with the others in that it's harder to get two channel music right than HT. I've had amps that sound great with HT that simply didn't cut if for two channel listening. In HT dynamics, power, and presence seem to be more important attributes than accuracy, smoothness, tone, imaging and soundstaging. Having a multi-speaker setup in HT makes things like imaging and soundstage less important. It's much more noticable in two channel listening when an amp is lacking in those areas. Also in HT, many of the high pitched sound effects are served well by amps that tend to be on the bright side of things. If an amp is bright for two channel listening however it becomes very fatiging very quick. I have found that amps that sound good with music will often sound good for HT also but it doesn't necesarily work the other way around.

[F1nut]

I'd make the offer for you drop in to hear the differences, but I know you're not around the corner, so I'll suggest you grab some of your favorite music and head over to a real hifi shop.

[DSkip]

I'd make the offer for you drop in to hear the differences, but I know you're not around the corner, so I'll suggest you grab some of your favorite music and head over to a real hifi shop.

Only way its going to happen J. It doesn't matter what music we offer, its more about what music you are familiar with. One big difference between HT and 2CH is obviously the visual distraction. While everything in a solid 2CH setup can translate into a quality HT setup, its not as noticeable because the audio isn't the full experience. That's why certain things are OK in HT while they don't work in 2CH. HT is more about dynamics and clean sound. For instance, since you usually have multiple speakers (and the TV/screen), imaging ability is nowhere near as important. If you haven't noticed, the majority of those who promote Emotiva are generally more focused on HT. Those who are not as fond of their products are grounded in 2CH. I've never heard their products so I have no opinion, but have noticed this trend.

[cnh]

One of my favorite quotes (and I paraphrase) from Doro (where is HE?) was:

HT is easy, two channel is where it's at! Or something to that effect. It's all about what F1nut, Dawgfish and Zitful have mentioned, above.

Heck, years ago I had a Panasonic Digital (D amps) AVR whose sound was "far" better than it should have been in 6.1 surround (almost as good as "anything" I've heard since and that was "supposed" to produce digital artifacts, weighed nothing and drew about 135 watts from the wall). Absolutely "surprising" DVD performance--and bench tests showed that it could actually put out 80 watts x 6 RMS all channels driven which is more than most AVRs that weigh 3-5 times more than this little and much maligned AVR.

But put that into the two channel mode and prepare to hear it's shortcomings!

No one here is raining on anyone's party. They're just talking about "different" things!

Enjoy, Kunta...!


cnh

[Jhayman]

No no just name a few songs and I will play them upstairs on a crappy stereo then try them on my gear downstairs.
Oh and I'm quite sure The Highend shops in Toronto are not using aftermarket PC's but a few of the stores I've been in do sell them..
When I inquired to the salesman about them and my questions to him, our eyes locked and he just smiled at me and I knew I was right..to a point.
As for HT not needing to be as accurate as 2 channel, well I disagree, bad sound is bad sound and you guys would not tolerate bad sound at all even in your HT because your your need for perfection you would not settle for EMO.

[Loud & Clear]

Listen (pun intended), all that matters is what you hear. I very recently kicked out two expensive integrated amps - Jolida 801 tube, and Yamaha A-S2000 - for an inexpensive one, Yamaha A-S500; I did so because the cheap one sounded as good or better in my particular room with my particular gear. The tube amp didn't have enough balls for my speakers and the fancy SS wasn't appreciably better. I learned something through this process that the various rags could have never shown me. The "tubes rule" refrain doesn't hold true for everyone or every setup.

And don't underestimate human nature: few men like to think that one man's $500 investment is worth their $5,000 investment. They'll defend what's theirs to the death.