My used separates nightmare (or how I went Emo)

[cnh]

Listen (pun intended), all that matters is what you hear. I very recently kicked out two expensive integrated amps - Jolida 801 tube, and Yamaha A-S2000 - for an inexpensive one, Yamaha A-S500; I did so because the cheap one sounded as good or better in my particular room with my particular gear. The tube amp didn't have enough balls for my speakers and the fancy SS wasn't appreciably better. I learned something through this process that the various rags could have never shown me. The "tubes rule" refrain doesn't hold true for everyone or every setup.

And don't underestimate human nature: few men like to think that one man's $500 investment is worth their $5,000 investment. They'll defend what's theirs to the death.

This is a little off topic. But I remember the exchange about the Yamaha. So you found the Higher end Yammie with all the "extra" engineering that the 500 didn't have to be about as "good"?

That is interesting. Of course since I'm into "vintage" stuff as well, I can tell you that my fleamart HK 430 (25 watts x 2) receiver and a pair of Dynaco A25s rival my Lsi-7 system below on some music. So synergy, room, etc. Sure, all that matters. The Dynaco and the HK have an almost perfect synergy and the room is the "right" one! lol

cnh

[ZLTFUL]

So what you're saying is that you can hear individual particles accelerating in an explosion? I think you need a job at CERN listening for the Higgs-Boson. Screw all of that magnetic imaging equipment!

I have a friend that I have been trying to get over to my house for a while now to listen to his music on something other than his studio monitors (He is a musician and music producer who does all of his own mastering).
The flute example was from him. He is a very critical listener. In fact, he spent about 30 minutes scooting my chair around my room trying to find *his* sweet spot.
I switched from some Kenny Wayne Shepherd to a Miles Davis DVD-A compilation I made. I forgot which song specifically but it starts out in a quiet studio with just a touch of background hiss. Suddenly you hear some very faint almost thumps...but higher in the frequency range than footsteps or the like. Then the flute starts playing and you hear the same sound faintly after each note from the flute. My friend makes the comment, "Holy sh!t! Those were the valves being fingered."
I have listened to that same DVD-A disc on my HT system which is powered by an Emo UPA-5 (125wpc) and have NEVER heard those same sounds. And my HT system is set up pretty damned good/sounds fantastic with movies...but isn't even close to my 2 channel system when it comes to accuracy.

But I am pretty sure that for the sake of this argument and you always wanting to "know you're right", you will act like you have actually heard that same thing before on just your TV speakers.

[Jhayman]

Song Please..
Oh and while were at I think it's you guys and your golden ears that need to work for CERN..

[Dawgfish]

No no just name a few songs and I will play them upstairs on a crappy stereo then try them on my gear downstairs.
Oh and I'm quite sure The Highend shops in Toronto are not using aftermarket PC's but a few of the stores I've been in do sell them..
When I inquired to the salesman about them and my questions to him, our eyes locked and he just smiled at me and I knew I was right..to a point.
As for HT not needing to be as accurate as 2 channel, well I disagree, bad sound is bad sound and you guys would not tolerate bad sound at all even in your HT because your your need for perfection you would not settle for EMO.

Hey man, I'm not trying to bash you at all, just relaying my past experiences with audio on to others. I had an Emo amp in my HT set-up and was quite satisfied with it. For HT purposes it did just fine and I was very happy with it's sound. I was using this in a very elaborate HT set-up I might add and I did not find it lacking in any way. In fact I find Emo amps excel in that application. I tried this same amp in my two channel setup later on when two channel became my main focus and I quickly found out it was seriously lacking in that application for my ears.

I agree with you in principle that if you are going to do HT right, just go ahead and use high quality equipment that will sound good in any application. It was really about price and budget. I got quite satisfactory performance with my Emo amp in my HT setup and I was quite satisfied. Sure I would have loved to have heard my HT setup with some top-notch amps in the mix, but the Emo did just fine and I didn't feel the need to upgrade. This was clearly not the case with two channel music however and like many of the others have alluded to, I wish it would have been. I've spent A LOT more money since then on my two channel setups.

[falconcry72]

Jhayman:

There are cheaper amps out there than Emo. A LOT cheaper. You ponied up more money for Emo because (I'm assuming) that you thought the Emo would SOUND BETTER than the cheaper options. In that case, are those cheaper options "inadequate", to use your own word? Yes! To YOU, those cheaper options were inadequate, which is why you payed more for the Emo!

So why then is it incomprehensible to you that someone else would find the Emo to be inadequate, and pony up even more money for an even better sounding amp? Is Emo at the exact perfect point in the audio spectrum where anything cheaper doesn't sound as good but anything more expensive is a waste of money? That's silly!

What defines "adequate" is personal.

Where I have defined adequate has changed A LOT in the last few years! LOL. It changes WAY too often, actually. The internal amps in my receiver were adequate for a long time... not so much anymore!

As far as HT vs. 2-channel, it's not so much about which format is more demanding, it's about how demanding WE ARE of each format. I am more demanding of the 2-channel format, so what I define as "adequate" in that setup is at a higher caliber than what I define as "adequate" in my HT setup. I think you'll find that to be a common sentiment among members here, but obviously some people are more demanding of their HT setups than they are of their music setups.

I'm not sure what my point is. I owned an Emo XPA-5 that I got a great amount of enjoyment out of. I'm not pro-emo nor am I anti-emo... same as with any other brand. There's worse stuff out there, and there's better stuff out there. The same could be said about any other piece of gear.

[ZLTFUL]

Song Please..
Oh and while were at I think it's you guys and your golden ears that need to work for CERN..

Start with the entire Kind of Blue album and go from there. Pedal thumps from the piano. Valve fingerings from flute, sax and trumpet. Drumsticks catching the rim of a drum and the drum surface at the same time...tons of nuances that you will be able to pick up on your TV speakers.

[Polkie2009]

That's an excellent point Jhayman, HT tends to be loud and proud , I ran my old Crest Audio Professional 4000 amp in my HT and it never broke a sweat, talk about bass:). Ended up buying a used Parasound 1200ii amp from one of our fellow polkies here to run the mains. Now I'm using the Crest P4000 it as a amp for a passive sub cabinet.

Oops! I meant to address this to ZLTFUL, not Jhaymen. +1 on what ZLTFUL and F1nut mentioned about accuracy, nuances, details, imaging,etc... that you can hear in 2 channel music.

[kuntasensei]

Note: When I say HT, I'm referring to all aspects of a movie's soundtrack, music included - not just explosions. It's a given that explosions and the typical action movie fare would be more demanding power wise, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm also referring to the musical side of movie soundtracks, which seem to be overlooked in these discussions. Maybe it's just me, but I appreciate the score... which is usually why I sit through the end credits. And that same accuracy and response you're looking for in 2-channel is what I want to hear in movies as well, not just bullets whizzing by in the surrounds or things blowing up. You take a movie where the music is very important... say something like Good Will Hunting, anything John Williams has scored, etc. If you don't think HT requires accuracy and nuance, I think you're missing an important part of the movie. Maybe that's just me.

I've already admitted that I think the Parasound was perhaps more refined for 2-channel with my particular speakers, but my brother (who is a bass player and particularly sensitive when it comes to music) tended to think the Emo had a slightly better sound with bass guitar and vocals. So it's also about personal tastes, I suppose. Still, I fail to see why every time someone brings up Emotiva here, it degenerates into these kinds of arguments. I can only presume that it's what Loud & Clear posited - a need to defend to the death more prestigious equipment, to the extent of mocking people who are fans of the perceived "lesser" gear. If I'm being honest, it's that kind of unhelpful mockery that pushed me toward the Adcom and Parasound gear in the first place... and look how that worked out. And as far as fatigue goes, most of my 2-channel listening tends to be bluegrass... and with my speakers, I don't get any sense of fatigue out of the XPA-3 thus far. It actually has a much purer sound to violins, mandolin, etc. than either the Adcom or the Parasound had with my speakers, which is a surprise given the price point.

I'm looking forward to having the tech who worked on my amps give my setup a listen when he comes to fetch the dead amps. The guy knows his sound, designs speakers, and did mastering for several record companies in his time. Should be fun to get his take on how things sound now. Either way, I'm gonna go enjoy it... and try not to get bogged down in the same nonsense that I've seen here before.

[ZLTFUL]

Nonsense and a pro and con discussion are two completely different things.

I own an Emotiva. I love it for the purpose I bought it for...HT. And even for streaming music from Pandora.
But when I want to listen critically to music, it simply falls short. It isn't bad. It just isn't as good when it comes to picking up the stick drop from the drummer or the foot slip on the pedal from the pianist.

Movie soundtracks are mastered VASTLY different from typical music recordings. Movie soundtracks are ALWAYS recorded in mammoth sound studios. There are all kinds of background actions going on not related to the music such as people moving around while recording, equipment, etc. These things are mastered out of the final soundtracks. Whereas a large concert hall recording isn't mastered the same way. A cough in the background isn't blended out. The sound of the musicians turning the page of their sheet music is left in and part of the nuances we are referring to. The tinkle of a glass in a jazz club recording. All things that would be mastered out of a movie soundtrack.
Movie music soundtracks are too "sterilized" for lack of a better word.
Good music recordings aren't. The hint of the whispering back and forth between the drummer and the bassist...

I am not trying to say anyone is wrong or right and I am not trying to argue any points. I am just pointing out that comparing music recordings and movie recordings is like trying to compare cumquats to field mice.

[D_M]

Kuntasensei,

We all have to make a conscious decision to say when. I think falconcry72 summed it up pretty well. I don't think that people are defending to the death, but are simply conveying their experiences.

[D_M]

ZLTFUL,

Great description, that is exactly what I was trying to get those guys in the other thread to articulate about a new speaker vs the old speaker. You know, was certain nuances absent with the old speakers.

[DSkip]

ZLTFUL,

Great description, that is exactly what I was trying to get those guys in the other thread to articulate about a new speaker vs the old speaker. You know, was certain nuances absent with the old speakers.

Keep in mind that, even though this is a Polk forum, some of us no longer own any Polks. My experiences are from almost 2 years ago, but I remember the comparisons. I won't be able to provide exact details about what cymbal decayed longer on what track. What I do know is that there was nothing that the LSi9 does that the LSiM-703 can't do better. The only reason to go with the older LSi sound is if you prefer a mellow sound. The 703's are more forward and I prefer that out of my speakers, to an extent. There is a thread around somewhere where the OP preferred his modded LSi9's over the stock 703's.

[cstmar01]

Song Please..
Oh and while were at I think it's you guys and your golden ears that need to work for CERN..

No one is going to give you a song. If you have never heard the song before how do you really know what your listening for?

The music that we love that we have listened to time and time again is normally someone's reference music. To hear details, things never heard before after a listen on a new system is ways people can tell differences.

How has the soundstage grown? Is there more seperation between the instruments? Is there now more sense of a band playing in front of you? If you never heard the song how the hell would you know what it sounds like or what's changed?

Your fishing for an answer no one can give you because you refuse to understand.

Emo is fine for HT I owned it, wasn't my cup of tea for 2 Channel. An AVR didn't cut it either. Not until I finally started to branch out did I get what I was looking for for sound. Am I still done, nope, and thats the best part about this.

If you think your AVR is the end all be all, then great, but don't tell everyone else they are wrong because you don't bother to try something else or understand how people come to find differences.

Oh and another thing, when I know a song, I really know the song, on different formats even too. Vinyl, SACD, CD. All makes a difference.

[Jhayman]

Exactly you don't know all the music, So let me get this straight..
When a new song comes out how do you know how it's supposed to sound?
You bring it home and it does not sound right on your gear, I guess that means UPGRADE time..
If for any other reason to see if the song changes..and you can hear the guy turn the page, lol
FYI I never started this thrash of posts, F1nut did..

[kuntasensei]

Yeah... I'd like to reiterate that fact: F1nut started the degeneration of this thread with his Jim Jones comparison. This was a pretty civil discussion up to that point. It seems like someone always has to cast unnecessary aspersions anytime someone brings up Emotiva here, even when they specifically aren't trying to make it out to be the second coming of audio nirvana (which I'm certainly not saying it is, nor was anyone else). And I suppose I don't understand why the brand or their gear engender such disdain. I mean... it isn't like I said I like BOSE or something!

[Jhayman]

Thank You..You are refering to the Album not the CD correct?

Start with the entire Kind of Blue album and go from there. Pedal thumps from the piano. Valve fingerings from flute, sax and trumpet. Drumsticks catching the rim of a drum and the drum surface at the same time...tons of nuances that you will be able to pick up on your TV speakers.

[ZLTFUL]

Either format will work. I have it in FLAC, CD, Vinyl and DVD-A formats. The DVD-A I made myself after converting the FLAC files. But for the sake of this discussion, I am referring to the FLAC/DVD-A.

[cstmar01]

Exactly you don't know all the music, So let me get this straight..
When a new song comes out how do you know how it's supposed to sound?You bring it home and it does not sound right on your gear, I guess that means UPGRADE time..
If for any other reason to see if the song changes..and you can hear the guy turn the page, lol
FYI I never started this thrash of posts, F1nut did..

Because a band that plays like a band should sound like a band in front of you. If I have vocals coming out of my butt it doesn't sound right now does it?

Most of the time people don't even set up their systems correctly to even know what a soundstage is. Or even get a feeling of a 3D soundstage from front to back. I have yet to hear a TV speaker do that.

Seriously you are trolling. Jesse acutally has helped ton of people here, more than what I can say you have done. Once again you took something and rather than try and understand you start an argument.

[Jhayman]

Thanks again

Either format will work. I have it in FLAC, CD, Vinyl and DVD-A formats. The DVD-A I made myself after converting the FLAC files. But for the sake of this discussion, I am referring to the FLAC/DVD-A.

[Jhayman]

Whatever, who are you to know how every band is supposed to sound..
I have heard GOOD and BAD sounding bands..
I could care less about Jesse HE started it end of Story..

Because a band that plays like a band should sound like a band in front of you. If I have vocals coming out of my butt it doesn't sound right now does it?

Most of the time people don't even set up their systems correctly to even know what a soundstage is. Or even get a feeling of a 3D soundstage from front to back. I have yet to hear a TV speaker do that.

Seriously you are trolling. Jesse acutally has helped ton of people here, more than what I can say you have done. Once again you took something and rather than try and understand you start an argument.

[cstmar01]

Whatever, who are you to know how every band is supposed to sound..
I have heard GOOD and BAD sounding bands..
I could care less about Jesse HE started it end of Story..

Once again, you are putting words into my mouth and failing to try and understand anything. If you can't figure out how a normal "band" is supposed to sound then there is no help for you.

You really show you know nothing, and care not to even try to learn. I fail to understand why you even bother to be on a forum that you disagree with 95% of the members and think they know nothing.

You sound like a little child, he started it! Are you going to get your mommy involved to go punish him?

[kuntasensei]

For the record, my initial assessment of the amps in my system was made based on the CD and SACD versions of Nickel Creek and Nickel Creek - This Side. I use those albums in particular because I am familiar with their sound, I've seen them live on multiple occasions (so I know how they sound in person), and they're generally regarded as good recordings. So in my case, I'm working from something familiar as far as listening for accuracy and nuance. There is something to be said for using familiar material to assess system performance. However, I like when people point out subtleties in a recording or on a particular system, and I'm always open for suggestions as far as material to check out. I did quite a bit of that at the tech's place with the speakers he designed and the crazy tube amp rig he had set up.

As far as placing blame for who started it, Jhayman is correct in that F1nut's Kool-Aid comment was completely unnecessary, and sadly, not an uncommon occurrence around here when it comes to this particular brand. And while I don't see this as a matter of "having mommy punish him" or any such nonsense, it is worth calling someone out when they initiate a game of dogpile-on-the-rabbit. It's fine if he has contributed knowledge to other threads, helped more people, yadda yadda yadda... but his comment was unnecessary, and only served to send this thread into the same death spiral that every other Emotiva thread seems to end up in. And for a forum that is so open to discussion in so many other aspects, it's kinda' infuriating... and was so even before I owned an Emotiva product. Just being honest.

[Loud & Clear]

Good post, kunta. Not hard to tell who the adults are here. F1 is extremely knowledgeable and has helped countless people here. He also flames the **** out of emotiva threads. So he's multifaceted.

[Jhayman]

Thanks Kuntasensei..
I just look at the mentality of who said it, wow he must be the only person to know how to listen to music and judging by his gear HE will argue to the Death, lol
And I case anyone is wondering I to have many vinyl's andCD's I use for MY reference listening.
I use Fleetwood Mac Rumors and Diana Krall as my to primary.
Gee someone using an EMO product doing that I guess is unheard of..

[rdb2001]

Guys let your ears decide. That is all that matters in the end. At this point we all know the hate for emo on this forum. I use to have the same hate because of this forum until I demoed their xpa1's and then their xpr2 and xpr5. I put those emos against some darn good amps and they did more than hold their own and I am 70/30 2 channel to ht. I got caught in names when building my last system and bought some of the best name amps I could afford and in the end, they didnt do it for me for 2 channel listening. The connection with the music was not their for me. I had a really upset wife because I had over 25k retail in amps just sitting in my room. Ordered their xpr series and it was history. I heard more detail and clarity than I ever heard with the boutique brand amps. Wide soundstage that just immersed you in the music. I was sold at that point and all other amps went packing.

Funny story is that one of the local dealers asked me to bring the xpr2 in for a listen. Hooked up to some Sonus Faber cremona m towers. He was floored by the sound of the xpr2. Then he asked me what it cost and he almost fainted when I told him. He had the cremonas running on some 15k monos. Are they be all end all, heck no. But you better have your wallet ready to find significantly better.

At the end of the day, lets all just enjoy the music. Synergy is huge and just because something has a better name does not mean it will work in your rig. It is just funny how when people here dislike more expensive amps, they word synergy is used, but when it comes to emo, its just a piece of junk thats only good for HT. Lots of hypocrits around here.

[kevhed72]

I think putting together a "good" HT system is a bit more involved than some people think, vs. putting together a "good" sounding stereo system. Yes, there are nuances and synergies to both. Just because someone slaps together 4 bookshelf speakers, a center, and a sub with an AVR and maybe blue ray player means that the journey ends there. There are probably as many crappy (or even average) HT systems as there are crappy stereo systems. Heck, how many people actual have the tweeter of the center channel placed at the correct height? Probably not many, and this is just one example. All I know is I will be hard pressed to send my HCA 1205 out to Parasound (or anywhere else for that matter) if it breaks down due the shipping cost alone. Why did I buy a used Parasound vs. a new Emo? In my opinion, the music within movies and TV sounded pretty smooth with my previous Parasound. With all that said, if this 2nd amp bites the dust, I'll being looking hard at a new EMO XPA-5.

[DSkip]

Its interesting how 3 years ago I would've been on a different side of the discussion. I'm beginning to feel like an elitist pig. There's different levels of the hobby. One forum member seems to be happy with the performance of the BDP-51fd as a CDP. All I think about it when I hear it is how badly I want a new source. Neither opinion is wrong, and I actually do like the Pio for what it is. However, the Usher's capabilities are greatly limited by the Pio and I know it for a fact.

Had I never listened to a few other Polkie's systems that far outclass mine, I might still be on the other side of the coin (and still just running a HT setup for 2CH I might add). That isn't a knock on anyone who does it, its just the path I've taken in my journey. I'd personally rather hear the movie through my 2 channel than listen to music through a surround sound. A dual purpose rig is going to have to have compromises in the other area either way.

Kunta, congrats on your purchase and I hope you continue to enjoy it. When I get a tube pre to play with down the road, I might consider giving Emotiva a try. I suspect, based off what I've heard from certain members, that I'm likely to not enjoy it, but I'm willing to give it a shot if I haven't heard one by then.

[Drenis]

Wow did this thread go to **** fast...

I'm going to bite here:

No no just name a few songs and I will play them upstairs on a crappy stereo then try them on my gear downstairs.

Anything by Tool either off the 10,000 Days album or Anemia. Actually, go listen to 10,000 days pt. 2. Use that song as your reference. Follow the thunder..................................

Also, I'm asking as a fellow Canuck who the hell you care so much about other peoples ****? Or why you insist on stirring the pot everywhere here? I can read for myself. I've watched what you've posted since joining. So what are you here for? Stop fishing and maybe you'll be surprised to see people stop feeding you all the emo hate bull crap you love feeding off of. Fact is, some people like what they like and dislike what they don't like. Deal with it. No brand is superior in any way. Components are built for certain purposes in mind. Another good fact of this example is reviews that can be found online comparing music production using Emo mono's compared to a 5 channel amp for HT... (wtf?!?!).

Think about this question... When you want to build a rig for critical and pure music enjoyment only, why would you buy a surround sound processor to control and manage it? Does something not seem a little wrong? Compromise is one thing but again, certain components are built for certain PURPOSES!!

[Jhayman]

Just had to add your 0.02 cents in eh..
Even though I have my music selection selected for me already by Ztful..
Why do you care so much..
I just don't like people who post only to stir the pot.
This thread would not have moved again if it were not for F1nut's trolling post..
Him being such a valued member should know better.

Wow did this thread go to **** fast...

I'm going to bite here:



Anything by Tool either off the 10,000 Days album or Anemia. Actually, go listen to 10,000 days pt. 2. Use that song as your reference. Follow the thunder..................................

Also, I'm asking as a fellow Canuck who the hell you care so much about other peoples ****? Or why you insist on stirring the pot everywhere here? I can read for myself. I've watched what you've posted since joining. So what are you here for? Stop fishing and maybe you'll be surprised to see people stop feeding you all the emo hate bull crap you love feeding off of. Fact is, some people like what they like and dislike what they don't like. Deal with it. No brand is superior in any way. Components are built for certain purposes in mind. Another good fact of this example is reviews that can be found online comparing music production using Emo mono's compared to a 5 channel amp for HT... (wtf?!?!).

Think about this question... When you want to build a rig for critical and pure music enjoyment only, why would you buy a surround sound processor to control and manage it? Does something not seem a little wrong? Compromise is one thing but again, certain components are built for certain PURPOSES!!

[teekay0007]

If I have vocals coming out of my butt it doesn't sound right now does it?

Dude! You can't really do that, can you? If you can, and you don't have a booking manager, let's talk!! Oh, man, I can have you booked up through 2015 by Monday - starting with my nephew's birthday party on the 11th of this month! Now...and I'm just talkin' about if it's just vocals. If you can master instruments...nuances, or no nuances...Oh My God! Then, the sky's the limit!