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  1. #151

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devlon View Post
    ALL212, first of all congrats on post number 100! Yahoo! I find you post informative. It is interesting to hear a viewpoint from someone in a parallel industry so to speak as it relates to cables. Do you have any required reading/studying in your industry concerning cable design and construction? I think that would be fascinating reading.
    Start with a lite study of TCP/IP - would apply to those of us using squeezeboxes and other networkable media players including wireless. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_protocol_suite
    Head down to the transport layer description and there you will find the portion that could retransmit.

    Wiring specs at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Ethernet_cables. Note the cat5 standard had NO crosstalk specifications. And check out the list of insulations you can use!

    They also note that there is solid and stranded available.

    Just as with any other wire - speaker, interconnect, power etc., you can also have different grades of network wire.

    The TCP/IP part applies ONLY if you use your home network to send music to your system.

    Oh - and don't go down to the box store and pay $20 for a 6 foot cat6 wire. If you don't have a local supplier get it on line. As with the rest of the components you can buy there are places that will take your money and laugh all the way to the bank!
    Last edited by ALL212; 03-19-2013 at 07:27 AM.

  2. #152

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    All212..
    $20 is to cheap for a 6f cat6 cable?
    If so how much is a 6F worth?
    Now the actual RJ-45 connector at both ends, I'm guessing it does not matter about the quality of it because it's only the wires touching inside the female end correct?

  3. #153

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jhayman View Post
    All212..
    $20 is to cheap for a 6f cat6 cable?
    If so how much is a 6F worth?
    Now the actual RJ-45 connector at both ends, I'm guessing it does not matter about the quality of it because it's only the wires touching inside the female end correct?
    Amazon - 5 foot molded (ends already on it) is under $4. Believe it or not the ends do matter - Cat6 wire has individual channels for each pair and the twists are supposed to go all the way into the end. Cat5/5e ends have no channels for the pairs - you should try and get the twists as close to the end as possible but...

    Buy premade cables - trying to terminate Cat6 will put hemorrhoids on your fingers.

  4. #154

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    Quote Originally Posted by mantis View Post
    My Boss did the demo and heard a difference. He said " I can't believe my own ears that a Ethernet cable can make any audible changes ". He is a long time Audiophile and has experienced extremely high end gear over many generations and has a very credible opinion , I want to hear it for myself as I was on the fence with this finding. But In a network , there is much traffic. With computers they do error correction and it's most of the time not live streaming. With better Ethernet cables , you have better bandwidth. I build Ethernet cables all the time and I'm considering doing a Cat 5 Cat 5e and Cat6 shootout in my own system. My house is currently all wired in cat5e but I can easily change that to cat6 or Cat7 which is what Audioquest uses. It is supposed to have much better bandwidth then cat6 so giving one the ability to not have the cable restrict the signal in any way. We are getting in some Audioquest Ethernet cables and I will also be bringing them home for demo. If they make a audible difference , I'll rewire my entire network including all hardwire connection with Audioquest cat7.
    Isn't each level of CAT datacable spec'd for such and such frequency? I believe 5e is 100Mhz. Then the twist per inch go up and with CAT6 there is a spline that keeps the twisted pair pushed a bit farther away. CAT 6 isn't going to give you anything over 5e on 10/100/1000 networks. Correct me if I am wrong but 100MHz is an order of magnitude greater then 20Khz?

    So is your house wired with CAT5 for running data or running analog?

    I had to run two 75 foot runs of shielded CAT6e for running HDMI to an outside TV and used Mono-price 24AWG HDMI cables and Mono-Price HDMI powered extenders. Cost about $100 and doing 1080P and the pic looks great.
    Last edited by Habanero Monk; 03-21-2013 at 10:58 AM.
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  5. #155

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    5e is actually 350 Mhz and at that it can carry 1G connections out to 300 feet. Cat6 - same but better interference rejection, the Mhz may be higher but until you start trying to push 10G connections it won't matter. Twists per inch on 5e are varied between the pairs and probably are higher than Cat5 where each pair twist is the same.

    My house is poorly run but with cat5e and some Cat6 and running data.

    Shielded Cat6 should be some very nice stuff!
    Aaron

  6. #156

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    Quote Originally Posted by ALL212 View Post
    5e is actually 350 Mhz and at that it can carry 1G connections out to 300 feet.
    5 and 5e are according to TIA/EIA-568-B 100Mhz. Never was sure what 350 rating was outside of marketing. 5e is the only thing available now anyways as far as the 5 standard.

    I believe the thinking behind 350Mhz 5e was bandwidth/future proofing. But I don't believe it will do 10G.
    Last edited by Habanero Monk; 03-21-2013 at 09:17 PM.
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  7. #157

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    For the hell of it, I sent an e-mail to HDMI.org asking one of their engineers to chime in on this. I'm sure it'll get ignored... but I figured it would be interesting if they answered.

  8. #158

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    Quote Originally Posted by kuntasensei View Post
    For the hell of it, I sent an e-mail to HDMI.org asking one of their engineers to chime in on this. I'm sure it'll get ignored... but I figured it would be interesting if they answered.
    Ask Roger Russel. Apparently, he is some type of cable guru.

  9. #159

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    Quote Originally Posted by kuntasensei View Post
    For the hell of it, I sent an e-mail to HDMI.org asking one of their engineers to chime in on this. I'm sure it'll get ignored... but I figured it would be interesting if they answered.
    .....and for some reason you think an engineer will know the differences in sound characteristics. Nasa employees a boat load of engineers, not one can tell you how the space shuttle handles but they can tell you how its suppose to handle on paper.

  10. #160

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFox View Post
    Ask Roger Russel. Apparently, he is some type of cable guru.
    Interesting article.... http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

  11. #161

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    Wish I had a nickel for everytime someone posts that stupid article. No offense Sodablue, just that it's like seeing that ugly chick in HS everyday hanging out by your locker.

  12. #162

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyb View Post
    .....and for some reason you think an engineer will know the differences in sound characteristics. Nasa employees a boat load of engineers, not one can tell you how the space shuttle handles but they can tell you how its suppose to handle on paper.
    I think an engineer can explain how packetized data can't be altered by signal quality in the TMDS digital transmission system. It isn't like I'm asking about analog here. Not that I guess it will matter... because it isn't like I'm going to convince anyone, apparently. Still, humor me... They probably won't even answer.
    Equipment list:
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  13. #163

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    Quote Originally Posted by kuntasensei View Post
    I think an engineer can explain how packetized data can't be altered by signal quality in the TMDS digital transmission system. It isn't like I'm asking about analog here. Not that I guess it will matter... because it isn't like I'm going to convince anyone, apparently. Still, humor me... They probably won't even answer.
    Nobody was talking about altering the data transmission. We are talking sound characteristics within the same data stream. Unless of course you believe that sound and 1's and 0's are both the same thing.

  14. #164

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    Quote Originally Posted by kuntasensei View Post
    I think an engineer can explain how packetized data can't be altered by signal quality in the TMDS digital transmission system. It isn't like I'm asking about analog here. Not that I guess it will matter... because it isn't like I'm going to convince anyone, apparently. Still, humor me... They probably won't even answer.
    Again, regardless if it's analog OR digital; ANY signal can be influenced electrically and dynamically. Analog can certainly be influenced MORE and that goes without saying. Digital can be influenced, but to a lesser degree. Have you listened for the electric and dynamic influences imposed upon DATA (digital signals) using a high resolution sound system?
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:

    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."

    "Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson

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  15. #165

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyb View Post
    Nobody was talking about altering the data transmission. We are talking sound characteristics within the same data stream. Unless of course you believe that sound and 1's and 0's are both the same thing.
    Right Tony. The 1's and 0's are the digital encoding of the audio. Of course they are not directly the audio signal itself otherwise we wouldn't need a D/A converter. I do believe DATA can be electrically and dynamincally influenced causing the DATA to exhibit these influences when converted back to analog by the D/A converter. Of course, this is at a smaller scale than kuntasensei is looking (listening) at. Otherwise, he would hear the differences in DATA transmissions depending on digital cable quality.
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:

    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."

    "Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson

    "Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee

  16. #166

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    Quote Originally Posted by Habanero Monk View Post
    Isn't each level of CAT datacable spec'd for such and such frequency? I believe 5e is 100Mhz. Then the twist per inch go up and with CAT6 there is a spline that keeps the twisted pair pushed a bit farther away. CAT 6 isn't going to give you anything over 5e on 10/100/1000 networks. Correct me if I am wrong but 100MHz is an order of magnitude greater then 20Khz?

    So is your house wired with CAT5 for running data or running analog?

    I had to run two 75 foot runs of shielded CAT6e for running HDMI to an outside TV and used Mono-price 24AWG HDMI cables and Mono-Price HDMI powered extenders. Cost about $100 and doing 1080P and the pic looks great.
    My House is completely wired in Cat5e cable for network use. I'm gonna upgrade that wiring to cat6 or 7 if I buy a spool of Audioquest. I know from experience with data cables , it's mostly in the termination where signal loss is found. In a home network non live data transfers , cat5e is fully capable of sending all 10/100/1000 data up to 330 feet no problem. Cat 6 can also do this with more bandwidth at the same length. Cat 7 is a new designed cable and I currently don't know it's spec as I have not used it or was trained on it.
    Live data transfer can fail from time to time and having the best possible cables in place is a good was to minimize loss. Cat cabling is not expensive and rewiring my house is a breeze. I have a full open 9 foot basement and my network lives down there.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.

  17. #167

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyb View Post
    Nobody was talking about altering the data transmission. We are talking sound characteristics within the same data stream. Unless of course you believe that sound and 1's and 0's are both the same thing.
    But there are no "sound characteristics" within the data stream because there is no SOUND in the data stream. The same packet of data should be converted by the DAC exactly the same every time, given the same exact packet of data, hence LOSSLESS AUDIO. That's my point... The quality of the audio at that point is dependent upon the quality of the DAC. But changing from one cable to another can't affect the audio quality for the lossless formats because they are either receiving the same exact audio data or they're not, and the content of those data packets can not be affected by jitter by design - they either arrive intact or they don't. The only artifact that can possibly occur with packeted data will be dropouts, so if you aren't getting dropouts, you're getting the same data you would get from one cable to another, signal quality be damned.

    Same concept for video over HDMI. The circuitry at the display determines the quality at the panel, which is why you calibrate the display to known standards. But so long as the cable is not exhibiting any of the characteristics of low signal as previously stated, the packets of data are the same from one cable to another.

    That's why I think it will be interesting if they respond (though it still won't change anyone's minds that the 1s and 0s are somehow shinier, I suppose).
    Equipment list:
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  18. #168

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    Quote Originally Posted by headrott View Post
    Again, regardless if it's analog OR digital; ANY signal can be influenced electrically and dynamically. Analog can certainly be influenced MORE and that goes without saying. Digital can be influenced, but to a lesser degree. Have you listened for the electric and dynamic influences imposed upon DATA (digital signals) using a high resolution sound system?
    I'm not disagreeing that signal can be influenced, nor am I disagreeing that digital data can be corrupted across a cable. But in the case of HDMI's transmission method, there is a mechanism in place for error checking and rejection that eliminates this issue.

    The 1s and 0s at the source device (say, the raw digital from a TrueHD track, for instance) are converted to 10-bit packets of data, similar to the way ZIP and RAR files on your computer are compressed versions of larger data. In this compression, there is an 8-bit word and 2 bits of checksum data so that the sink end (the AVR, the display, etc.) can ensure that the data packet arrived 100% intact. These 10-bit packets of data are what is sent over the HDMI cable. Then, at the receiving end, the HDMI chipset (which has a buffer so it may handle the error checking and conversion) converts these 10-bit words back to the raw digital data WITHOUT ANY CHANGES. If any of those data packets do not arrive intact, the HDMI chipset checks for the correct packet in the redundant data feed and if it finds it, it sends it on time with nary a hitch. If the quality of the cable, however, is such that these data errors occur regularly, the HDMI chipset at the receiving end runs out of buffer space and goes into blanking - the point where the display or AVR aren't being sent any data because the packets aren't arriving intact.

    Hence what I have said all along: If a low-quality cable is getting the packets there without the audio dropouts or video speckling/total loss that corrupted signal exhibit, a higher quality cable will have ZERO differences post-transmission because the data is exactly the same. The DAC at the AVR or the video chipset at the display don't even SEE the signal strength because they aren't fed signal. They're fed the data that the HDMI chipset converted back from 10-bit compressed and error-checked packets. Identical 1s and 0s = identical output... and if it doesn't, then there's some kinda' mystery going on at the sink, not the cable.

    (I know at this point I'm just talking to myself... because I'm not going to change anyone's mind, no matter how well I explain the mechanism. But hey, at least I made the effort.)

  19. #169

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    Default CBC Canada Packing the Deal

    Informative video to say the least. You can only get it in Canada I guess. Seen this one awhile ago. I'll search for a US link of it.

    Last edited by Habanero Monk; 03-22-2013 at 12:58 PM.
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  20. #170

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    Is the main difference between the Forest and Cinnamon the silver content in the Cinnamon?

    Thanks.
    Adcom GFP-750, Adcom GFR-700, Adcom GFA-5802, Jolida JD100, polk LSi15, polk LSiC, polk LSiFX, Velodyne Impact 12, APC H15, Sony KDL-60EX500, Sony BDP-S570, Pangea, MIT

  21. #171

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    Quote Originally Posted by acmf74 View Post
    Is the main difference between the Forest and Cinnamon the silver content in the Cinnamon?

    Thanks.
    That is 100% correct.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.

  22. #172

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    This post has me very interested in trying out the AQ HDMI line.

    My question is if I were only to use the HDMI cable for VIDEO ONLY should I try out the Forest or go to the Cinnamon?

    I use a digital cable for my sound.
    Last edited by acmf74; 03-28-2013 at 02:36 PM.
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  23. #173

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    Quote Originally Posted by Habanero Monk View Post
    Informative video to say the least. You can only get it in Canada I guess. Seen this one awhile ago. I'll search for a US link of it.

    It's not the Canadian Broadcast but one done by a U.S. news station:

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  24. #174

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    ^^^^^That was a terrible report^^^^^^. There was no proof (either way) presented when the HDMI cables were put on the "scope". They simply stated that they put them on a scope and compared them. They offered no results. What a waste of time. Also, it looked like the Blu-Ray player they were using to compare the HDMI cables was as expensive as the more expensive HDMI cable itself. I have no clue how good of a display they used. Of course you aren't going to notice a difference in HDMI cables if you are sending a video signal from a Blu-Ray player as expensive as your HDMI cable (approximately). Again, a waste of time and money. What were you trying to prove by this post? You'll have to post something that actually has proof in it or it's a waste of time. Again, the best proof is by doing a comparison for yourself........
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:

    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."

    "Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson

    "Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee

  25. #175

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    What were you trying to prove by this post?
    He's trying to prove that he has no personal experience and relies on others for the basis of his opinions. I'd say he did a damn fine job of proving his point.
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

  26. #176

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    The cable itself doesn't alter the data stream obviously, it's the quality of the cable/materials used/design, that alter the final sound. Nobody is saying data is altered, just how much of that data is audible and the tonal qualities is the ticket.

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    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    He's trying to prove that he has no personal experience and relies on others for the basis of his opinions. I'd say he did a damn fine job of proving his point.
    I'm saying you guys can't pick out a quality $20 cable from a quality $200 cable. Period.
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    Actually, what you are saying is that I hit the nail on the head. Granted, you made it easy.
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

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    I can tell with a longer run on my JVC, when I swapped out the wireworld silver starlight or even the Aurora the picture quality lessens. So I would have to say I am capable of picking out a good cable

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    Quote Originally Posted by polkfarmboy View Post
    I can tell with a longer run on my JVC, when I swapped out the wireworld silver starlight or even the Aurora the picture quality lessens. So I would have to say I am capable of picking out a good cable
    With any cable length beyond the actual spec agreed. For 6 foot runs which is the rule, not the exception, isn't going to happen. You would be guessing at best. Keep in mind I used $20 as the minimum for cable. I'm sure the bargain bin at ebay has something that is going to do a poor job.

    More time reading what is posted would help you guys. I'll be at MWAF it anyone wants to try it out. I'll bring a $20 and a $200 6ft cable. Loser buys the beer.
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