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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Tracy View Post
    Any list will result in generating interest (sales) to the public because it is a list of the supposed 'best of ' compiled by supposed 'experts'.

    Does that make it a 'fraud'?

    Car and Drivers Top Ten Sports Models
    Consumer Reports Top Ten Vaccuum Cleaners
    Wine Spectators Top Ten Cabernets
    The Oscars

    All will generate interest in the items on the list....cuz its a best of list.

    And anyone who has bought what is on the list will get to say that their purchase made 'the list' and anyone looking to get something highly recommended will be inclined to buy from the list.
    The difference between the "lists" you listed and Stereophile's RCL is that the RCL is ever expanding, even to the point of having an A+ category which is essentially an absurd category of "better than the best".

    All of the lists you stated have a set number of winners, which remains the same year by year. You either make the top ten or you don't. If you make the top ten, you are rank ordered according to established criteria. There aren't ten movies winning the best picture Oscar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Tracy View Post
    Again - does that make the list a fraud?
    Yes, I think that when they do things like this, it makes the list a fraud:

    There might be 10 or more amps rated class A by Stereophile, then, when another amp appears that outclasses all the current class A amps, rather than bumping all the former class A amps to class B, and class B amps to class C (and pissing off a whole lot of manufacturers and subscribers), the outclassed class A amps hold their A rating and a new, A+ class is created.
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
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  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    After reading the page I linked to, I did not get that impression at all. To me, he seems to be an audiophile fed up with the hyperbole and crass commercialism in the audio press.



    How many times has a newbie come to our forum to ask our opinion of "what's best", and then get pissed off at us when were tell him that they are going to have to listen to a variety of things and make up their own mind?

    Some people prefer to shop according to reviewer recommendations and price tag. "If it costs a lot, it must be good." "If it was recommended by X reviewer in Y magazine and placed highly on Z equipment list, it must be good." I personally know people like this.



    Sad, but true. Even sadder is that all audiophiles get stereotyped as being this way.


    Any such list can be criticized - so are we all to subscribe to the conspiracy theory that all lists are fraudulent and not trust worthy?

    Isn't that the implied worth of having 'critics' and reviewers who are supposedly schooled and well versed in the items being reviewed - that their review and opinion has some credibility and worth to them?

    I subscribe to Wine Spectator as a relative newbie to wine. I don't have the background or financial means to review all the wines in the magazine. Yet I want to educate my palate to wine - so I rely on the magazine's rating systems and reviewers to make 'lists' and to rank wines. Why would I want to buy a poorly reviewed wine? Why would I want to do a blind buy of a wine, cheap or expensive - if I don't know the vinter or understand terroir or vintages?


    Yet to balance the perspective.

    Should a list be taken as gospel truth? I don't think so. My tastes will never exactly match that of any reviewer, whether it be for wine, a movie, or audio equipment. However, a list by a reviewer that seems credible and whose tastes somewhat align with mine will make me inclined to at least consider the product being reviewed.

    I suppose if Stereophile magazine is to be vilified as a publication of paid whores to the audio industry - then yeah - I guess the list is a fraud.

    I think most readers understand that as a publication that accepts payment for advertisements, then they cannot claim to be independent reviewers.

    The truth is probably someplace in-between.

    H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music.

  3. #33

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    The business of Pass Labs not advertising in stereophile which results in their gear not being on stereophile's list seemed bogus to me. So, I picked up the issues lying next to my 'sweet spot' recliner, and this is what I found.

    December 2012 - page 48 - full page ad for the XP-20
    January 2013 - page 104 - full page ad for the XP-20
    February 2013 - page 56 - full page ad for the XP-20
    March 2013 - page 58 - full page ad for Xs-150

    I was to lazy to find past issues with their recommended list.

  4. #34

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    I bought a turntable (damaged) at an estate sale because I spotted a great cartridge in the bent tonearm.

    It was Van den Hull grasshopper. It's on "the list" And while it did sound pretty darn good I actually prefer my Adcom moving coil with the van den hull stylus more.

    But it sure was a great deal for $80.00 The cartridge alone sells for $2500.00

  5. #35

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    I rely heavily on professional/consumer reviews (moreso professional) because of my remote location. While I realize that Stereophile has a primary agenda of selling magazines, I do use their reviews sometimes---mostly looking at what they are comparing the subject equipment to. The reality is, those reviewers get their ears on a ton more stuff than I could ever hope to, so to a degree it's helpful. The end-all be all? Nah, but yet another resource to consider. Ask yourself this; would you buy a product that Stereophile was particularly disappointed in? I also like the technical portion of the review, where they bench-test the equipment.

    Transport: Oppo BDP-103/USB HDD (flac)
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    Power Amp: Parasound HCA-1500A
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    Cables: Kimber Hero/8TC; DH Labs D-75

  6. #36

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    I'm with Steve on this one. The key with Stereophile is to "read between the lines". Yes... their reviews can all be rather glowing. But if you can get past that, it's pretty easy to see if a piece of equipment is right for you (or at least worth trying out). Even if their grading system is a bit wonky, you can still gather a pretty good idea of an item's tonal characteristics, limitations, etc. etc. This is why I continue to subscribe.

    That... and the perdy pictures.

  7. #37

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    A number of interesting criticisms above. There is NO doubt that "any" journal or mag that relies on advertising is NOT going to be PURE! That goes without saying, it's just the way things work in a "consumer/ad driven" society. The same principle applies in the political world, and even in the "academic" world to an extent (to the extent that Universities and colleges are NOT really as non-profit as they wish us to "believe"). And wherever there is profit there is power and potential corruption, or self-interest and misrepresentation (you can thank humanity for that, the fact that we are ALL so "morally" pure and "uncorruptible").

    Stereophile included. DKs descriptions and critiques are reminiscent of the sociological critiques of scientific progress and history made by Thomas Kuhn and as such spot on. But Steve also has a point, even though SP may have a slightly rotting core, it can still be used to some good effect--one just has to take care.

    And as we all know "the final proof is in YOUR listening, not in any review or audio mag".

    cnh
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    Onkyo TX-SR 805 System #1 HT AVR
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    Headphones: HD600, Q701, ATH-M50s etc. Bravo Audio Ocean amp., Onkyo P-304, Adcom GFA-555, Technics Direct Drive TT

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFox View Post
    The business of Pass Labs not advertising in stereophile which results in their gear not being on stereophile's list seemed bogus to me. So, I picked up the issues lying next to my 'sweet spot' recliner, and this is what I found.

    December 2012 - page 48 - full page ad for the XP-20
    January 2013 - page 104 - full page ad for the XP-20
    February 2013 - page 56 - full page ad for the XP-20
    March 2013 - page 58 - full page ad for Xs-150

    I was to lazy to find past issues with their recommended list.
    Some manufacturers advertise in Stereophile but never submit an item for review. It does not appear that Pass regularly submits their gear for review to any of the domestic or foreign audio publications.

    I have subscribed to Stereophile's digital edition since the February 2009 issue. Nelson Pass mentioned in November of 2003 that Stereophile dropped them from the 2003 RCL. Since 1998, the RCL has been published twice a year in the April and October issues. I don't know if Pass was deleted from one or both of the 2003 RCL's. I have a digital copy of the May 2008 issue, which I purchased as a standalone copy, which has a 1/2 page Pass ad on page 72. I don't know if either 2008 RCL included Pass gear. I did not find any Pass gear in the April 2009 RCL, but there was a full page Pass ad on page 102. The Pass XA 30.5 power amp was listed in the October 2009 RCL. Pass gear has been listed in every RCL from October 2009 to October 2012. All of my 2009 issues (Feb. - Dec.) have full page Pass ads. I didn't check every 2010-2013 issue, but every RCL issue from that time period carried a full page Pass ad.

    Apparently, Pass Labs and Stereophile kissed and made up sometime between 2003 and 2008. My Pass Labs XP-25 Phono Stage has been listed in the RCL (Class A) since April 2011. Accordingly, my current collection of Stereophile RCL Class A components is amended to include the XP-25:

    Stereophile Class A recommended components in current 2 channel system:

    Parasound JC 1 monoblock power amps,
    Cary Audio CD 306 Pro Verion CD player,
    Graham Phantom B-44 tonearm,
    Ortofon MC Windfeld phono cartridge,
    Pass Labs XP-25 Phono Stage.

    In the future, when I am more dedicated to audio than I am now, I'll dig up the 2002 and 2004-2008 RCL's to see if my Pass Labs X0.2 preamp made the cut.
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
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  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by pepster View Post
    Got anything that was on the "A" list over the years?
    Yeah I had this girlfriend, but I think she was a size AA
    Polk Audio SDA SRS 1.2TL's
    With new Exotic wood, Sonicaps, Mills & RDO198's - Born on 4-24-1989 and Signed by Matthew Polk!!!!


    My Polk SDA SRS 1.2TL's http://www.LASAREATH.com/


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    Part Deux: http://tinyurl.com/lasareath3

    Car Stereo---->http://www.salsleaf.com/leaf_stereo/index.htm<---- NEW for 2013

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by pepster View Post
    Got anything that was on the "A" list over the years?
    Nope. I did endure a one year subscription back in the mid to late 70s. At the time the "pamphlet" was the size of a Playbill, and not much thicker, published quarterly. As I recall, their reviews were 80% subjective, 20% actual kinda-sorta lab measurements. If I had a bird in a cage, the pamphlet would have served a useful purpose.
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
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    Surrounds & Rears: Custom http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...rround-Project
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, H-Nuts, BH5
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    www.dhsspeakerservice.com

  11. #41

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    Marantz Reference SA-11S2 SACD player.
    Main system: Denon DP-59L | Audio-Technica AT33EV | Marantz Reference Series SA-11S2 | Classé CP-50, modified | Classé CA-300, modified | Classé DR-10, modified | Classé RC-1 | PSB Stratus Gold i's | DIY Balanced AC Power Conditioner with surge/spike suppression | Acoustic Zen and NeoTech cables | Oyaide and Furutech AC power connectors and receptacles | Hi-Fi Tuning Supreme fuses | Dedicated 20A IG AC line

  12. #42

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    Just a quick follow up on Pass Labs. The April 2013 arrived today, and the cover has the Pass XP-30 pre-amp. A quick glance shows a Pass Lab amp in the A section.

    Class A+ was created to separate the SACD players from CD players, and the few ultra-turntables from those costing less than $100,000 dollars.

  13. #43

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    PS Audio Gets No Stereophile Love.

    The last PSA piece to make the RCL was the GCPH phono preamp in April 2009 (RCL Class B). From the PSA forum
    (http://www.psaudio.com/forum/#/discu...h-2013-issue):



    -------------------------------------------------------
    Elk January 29

    Stereophile has reviewed, and expressed great delight in, a number of PSA products in the past. It would be fun to see them review the PWD and PWT.
    -------------------------------------------------------
    Paul McGowan January 30

    No kidding. I have tried to get them interested in anything we make but alas, without any luck. If any of you want to ping them and ask as customers it might help and certainly would be appreciated.
    -------------------------------------------------------
    darek January 30

    Why not make the first move? Like in diplomacy somebody sometimes has to make the first move. I am far from saying major magazines are biased towards advertisers (I don't know) but maybe they ignore PSA just like PSA ignores them. I am sure PSA would get a fair review. Seems like Win-win-win (the 3rd winner would be the reader).
    -------------------------------------------------------
    darek January 30

    OK, just forget it. Paul knows best what to do.
    -------------------------------------------------------
    Paul McGowan January 30

    Apparently not if I am not getting results. We don't advertise in either magazines but theoretically that shouldn't matter.
    I have certainly offered multiple times to supply product for their review.
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
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  14. #44

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    Mine were Stereophile speaker of the year in 2000. I don't know if they made it to "A" status.

  15. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFox View Post
    The business of Pass Labs not advertising in stereophile which results in their gear not being on stereophile's list seemed bogus to me. So, I picked up the issues lying next to my 'sweet spot' recliner, and this is what I found.

    December 2012 - page 48 - full page ad for the XP-20
    January 2013 - page 104 - full page ad for the XP-20
    February 2013 - page 56 - full page ad for the XP-20
    March 2013 - page 58 - full page ad for Xs-150

    I was to lazy to find past issues with their recommended list.
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFox View Post
    Just a quick follow up on Pass Labs. The April 2013 arrived today, and the cover has the Pass XP-30 pre-amp. A quick glance shows a Pass Lab amp in the A section.

    Class A+ was created to separate the SACD players from CD players, and the few ultra-turntables from those costing less than $100,000 dollars.
    I received my digital copy of the April 2013 Stereophile today and its true: all those years of Pass buying full page ads finally paid off!



    All this talk of Pass gear induced me to visit my favorite Pass dealer's website to see if there were any "deals". Turns out he had a 1 month old XP-30 preamp demo. It is supposed to arrive by Monday. The HiFi Tuning fuse for it will probably get here first.

    Assuming I like the XP-30 well enough to keep it (the dealer allows a two week home trial), my current Stereophile Class A component list will be revised to:

    Parasound JC 1 monoblock power amps,
    Cary Audio CD 306 Pro Verion CD player,
    Graham Phantom B-44 tonearm,
    Ortofon MC Windfeld phono cartridge,
    Pass Labs XP-25 Phono Preamplifier,
    Pass Labs XP-30 Line Level Preamplifier.

    This will be my 3rd Pass preamp (4th if I count the Pass designed Adcom GFP-750).
    Last edited by DarqueKnight; 03-19-2013 at 08:38 PM.
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
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  16. #46

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    Definately would like to hear your thoughts on the XP-30 pre-amp Ray. Looking forward to the review. Also, I think the Hi-fi tuning fuse(s) takes the same amount of time to get to Louisiana as it does from Seattle,WA to Salem, OR. The US post office is strange sometimes.
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:

    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."

    "Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson

    "Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee

  17. #47

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    I have the LFD MK IV LE integrated amp in my desktop setup. A pretty terrific no frills integrated amp that is built like a tank and really sweet sounding. I think this is class A recommended. I have it paired with the little Harbeth P3ESR mini-monitors Class B restricted frequency speaker. A really good pairing. While I always feel like tweaking the main rig in my family room, I have no desire to change anything on my desktop. For low level listening especially acoustics and vocals it is really fantastic to my ears..
    Rig1 - Totem Hawks, Benchmark HDR, Parasound A21, Sonus, Samsung 52 LCD, Audioquest Type4
    Rig2 - LFD LE IV Integrated, Harbeth P3ESR, Rega Dac, MF V-Link, IMAC, Audioquest Type4

  18. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by headrott View Post
    Definately would like to hear your thoughts on the XP-30 pre-amp Ray. Looking forward to the review. Also, I think the Hi-fi tuning fuse(s) takes the same amount of time to get to Louisiana as it does from Seattle,WA to Salem, OR. The US post office is strange sometimes.
    The HFT fuse arrived today (3/21). I ordered it on 3/18 and it was shipped that same day.
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
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  19. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    The HFT fuse arrived today (3/21). I ordered it on 3/18 and it was shipped that same day.
    Never tried one.
    I have tried Furutech, Isoclean, Acme.
    All have made a noticible improvement from stock, always, in every component, muliple years!
    I am all ears Ray!
    Look forward to your thoughts.
    Last edited by pepster; 03-22-2013 at 12:29 AM.

  20. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    The HFT fuse arrived today (3/21). I ordered it on 3/18 and it was shipped that same day.
    Yeah, exactly the same here Ray. I ordered on 3/18 and the HFT fuse arrived today (3/21). Except mine came about 1/8 the distance. As I said, kinda strange. I can get something delivered to me in 2 days from texas, but it takes 3 days to go from Seattle, WA to Salem, OR. Installed it into my Denon SACD "DSD transport". Didn't seem to make quite as big of an improvement as I had expected. I may need to try to turn the fuse around and see if that makes a difference. Don't get me wrong, the fuse made a positive difference, but it didn't seem as big as when I changed the fuses in my other components. I'll try turning it around and see what happens. Do you have experience with turning the HFT fuses around and listening for the differences?
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:

    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."

    "Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson

    "Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee

  21. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lasareath View Post
    Yeah I had this girlfriend, but I think she was a size AA
    I never had a girlfriend that needed AA's. I prefer the High powered DD versions instead.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Monoblocks, Polk Audio "Signature" Reference Series 1.2TL with complete mods, Polk audio AB700/800 "in-wall" surrounds, Dodd Audio MLP, Pioneer Elite SC-65, Peachtree I-DAC, Oppo BDP-93, Yamaha PX-3 Turntable, with Sumiko BPS EVOIII, Pioneer PDD 9MkII SACD Player, SimAudio moon 110lp phono preamplifier

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  22. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by headrott View Post
    Do you have experience with turning the HFT fuses around and listening for the differences?
    Yes, the sound changed depending on the fuse orientation. There were varying degrees of improvement depending on the component type. Do a search on "hifi tuning" and several of my threads will come up where I discuss this.
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
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  23. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    Yes, the sound changed depending on the fuse orientation. There were varying degrees of improvement depending on the component type. Do a search on "hifi tuning" and several of my threads will come up where I discuss this.
    Thanks Ray.
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:

    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."

    "Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson

    "Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee

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    Alon Grand Reference.

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