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  1. #1

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    Default I must be stupid- bi amp question

    I asked this question over at Audioholics and the only response was "do a search". Well I did for about half an hour and never got a straight answer therfore, I must be stupid. At least that is the feeling I got from AH forum.

    I have a Pioneer Elite VSX-01 thx that claims 110 wpc in stereo and also 110wpc in 5.1 mode. (doubtful)
    I have some RTi A7`s on the way and my plan was to bi-amp using the surround back channel. I get about 50/50 as to wether or not that will provide any benefit. Some say just bi-wire OR buy a seperate amp. Yes, I most likely will buy an amp, but in the mean time, which method will get me the best from those A7`s for now.
    Bi-amp w/surr back channel, bi-wire OR just go old school with one cable and do nothing until I can afford an amp.

  2. #2
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    I would doubt that you would hear a difference between the bi-wire, single wire, and "bi-amp" options with your receiver. Wire the speakers which ever way is easiest for you, and save up money for an external amp.

  3. #3

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    I did this with my Polk Monitor 70s and my TX-SR-608, I couldn't tell the difference at all. I tested it at loud volumes, quite volumes, I really wanted to hear a difference, but nope nothing. I would just go old school single cable until you have additional amps.

  4. #4

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    Because the total system power is dependent upon a common store of power, bi-amping from the same AVR will yield no significant benefits. Bi-wiring would also yield about the same result as you would get running a single speaker cable and replacing the jumpers between the two sets of binding posts with good speaker cable instead. And that's my recommendation: Get a good quality run of speaker cable to your RTiA7s, and keep a little leftover to replace the jumpers between the binding posts.
    Equipment list:
    Onkyo TX-NR3010 9.2 AVR
    Emotiva XPA-3 amp
    Polk RTi70 mains, CSi40 center, RTi38 surrounds, RTi28 rears and heights
    SVS 20-39CS+ subwoofer powered by Crown XLS1500
    Oppo BDP-93 Blu-ray player
    DarbeeVision DVP5000 video processor
    Epson 8500UB 1080p projector
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  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by kuntasensei View Post
    Because the total system power is dependent upon a common store of power, bi-amping from the same AVR will yield no significant benefits. Bi-wiring would also yield about the same result as you would get running a single speaker cable and replacing the jumpers between the two sets of binding posts with good speaker cable instead. And that's my recommendation: Get a good quality run of speaker cable to your RTiA7s, and keep a little leftover to replace the jumpers between the binding posts.
    +1 Good advice!

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by kuntasensei View Post
    Because the total system power is dependent upon a common store of power, bi-amping from the same AVR will yield no significant benefits. Bi-wiring would also yield about the same result as you would get running a single speaker cable and replacing the jumpers between the two sets of binding posts with good speaker cable instead. And that's my recommendation: Get a good quality run of speaker cable to your RTiA7s, and keep a little leftover to replace the jumpers between the binding posts.
    +2. Save your money. Spend it on music instead.
    Main system: Denon DP-59L | Audio-Technica AT33EV | Marantz Reference Series SA-11S2 | Classé CP-50, modified | Classé CA-300, modified | Classé DR-10, modified | Classé RC-1 | PSB Stratus Gold i's | DIY Balanced AC Power Conditioner with surge/spike suppression | Acoustic Zen and NeoTech cables | Oyaide and Furutech AC power connectors and receptacles | Hi-Fi Tuning Supreme fuses | Dedicated 20A IG AC line

  7. #7

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    Agreed - just wire it normally. I mean if you really want wire it up - it's up to you how you set it up and all part of the hobby.
    Main Surround -
    Epson 8350 Projector/ Elite Screens 120" / Pioneer Elite SC-35 / Sunfire Signature / Focal Chorus 716s / Focal Chorus CC / Polk MC80 / Polk PSW150 sub

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  8. #8

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    As I understand it, an AVR has one power supplying all the speakers. If it puts out 110 wpc to 2 channels, that's basically all you have to work with, at most. Some electronic magic happen when you connect the 3rd channel,and may only drop it 105 wpc, but when channels 3 and 4 channels are connected, it may drop to 85 or so wpc. Evry extra connection you add will lessen the power to individual channel.

    Your A7's are using the 110 watts as efficiently as they can using the 2 wire hook up. The electronics will send more power to the woofers than the mids and tweeter, because they crave more. By running 2 channels instead of one, the mids and tweeter are recieving the same power as the woofers, and all things being equal, don't need it.

    Wire it conventially, with 2 wire hook-up, leave or upgrade the jumper which ever you prefer. Save up for an amp, to power the A7's more to their liking. Let the AVR do its job, the amp do its job in the future, and the speakers work their own magic.

  9. #9

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    Thanks for the input all. Now I guess I need to be shopping me an amp!

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    Don't mean to hijack this thread, but thanks kuntasensei your advice helped me too!
    SRT
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    PSW1200 w/DSW 2k Micropro amp. (Inept Postal Goons Destroyed my original Plate Amp.)I can almost picture those goons...
    Ay-Oh Joey catch this 40# box... naw, don't worry I'm only doin' 35mph!!!!!

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by kuntasensei View Post
    because the total system power is dependent upon a common store of power, bi-amping from the same avr will yield no significant benefits. Bi-wiring would also yield about the same result as you would get running a single speaker cable and replacing the jumpers between the two sets of binding posts with good speaker cable instead. And that's my recommendation: Get a good quality run of speaker cable to your rtia7s, and keep a little leftover to replace the jumpers between the binding posts.
    agreed!
    Samsung UN55C6500 55" LED
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  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by kuntasensei View Post
    Because the total system power is dependent upon a common store of power, bi-amping from the same AVR will yield no significant benefits. Bi-wiring would also yield about the same result as you would get running a single speaker cable and replacing the jumpers between the two sets of binding posts with good speaker cable instead. And that's my recommendation: Get a good quality run of speaker cable to your RTiA7s, and keep a little leftover to replace the jumpers between the binding posts.
    Disagree.

    At least don't feel you can blanket apply this statement. This is commonly tossed out around here and is never stated with any conditions. And perhaps it should be conditional.

    If you over run the stored energy in the power supply then the supply impedance and sound quality changed radically as you now are pulling directly from the incoming power. The belief seems to be that no multi-channel amp ever has enough power supply reserve to run peaks on more than the conventional two channels. Does everybody that repeats this use mono-blocks? Why do you believe your stereo amp doesn't also have this issue?

    And of course, the answer is it does have the same issue. And the issue is power consumed. IE...running too loud. Now if you're one of those that mentally ties maximum loudness with quality, then this can be an issue. But if your running a multi channel amp at sane levels, then power supply reserve isn't necessarily in all cases exhausted just because your running multiple channels. So I'm saying that the condition of how loud you're running needs to be applied to this "no AVR has enough PS" thing. If your running that hard then you need better quality amplification. But running multiple outputs to a speaker in the condition of bi-amping does bring the benefit of lower impedance drive up until you run out of power. So to blanket say "no benefit" if frankly incorrect.

    Repeat...lower impedance of multiple driving channels has potential for benefit, up until you badly overrun power demand the design can supply. Much can be better up to the point it's too loud.

    CJ
    As seen on the AVS forum... "Radio Shack zip cord kicks butt."

  13. #13

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    I guess the reason this has become a blanket statement is because it applies more times than not. Lots of variables for sure. An AVR is only as good as it's power supply in relation to the speakers your using with them and what your asking them to do, volume wise. Most run of the mill speakers from various manufactures don't use alot of power for the top end anyway. Matter of fact you'd be surprised how little they use. So biamping with an avr is in essence robbing peter to pay paul even though paul doesn't need the extra power. Some equate extra power to loudness too and thats mistake number one. Everything is relevant however, each situation different. Blanket statement do carry an air of being wrong from time to time, but in the end they are mostly right.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyb View Post
    I guess the reason this has become a blanket statement is because it applies more times than not. Lots of variables for sure. An AVR is only as good as it's power supply in relation to the speakers your using with them and what your asking them to do, volume wise. Most run of the mill speakers from various manufactures don't use alot of power for the top end anyway. Matter of fact you'd be surprised how little they use. So biamping with an avr is in essence robbing peter to pay paul even though paul doesn't need the extra power. Some equate extra power to loudness too and thats mistake number one. Everything is relevant however, each situation different. Blanket statement do carry an air of being wrong from time to time, but in the end they are mostly right.
    Agreed. I bi-amped mine when i bought my Onkyo TX-NR3007 and couldn't tell any differance at all. And its a fairly robust AVR that weights almost 70lbs and has 4 unused channels in my 5.2 application. Or maybe the RT5000 doesn't need more power since the center mid bass sub, and tower subs have their own amplification.
    Samsung UN55C6500 55" LED
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    Polk Audio RT5000
    -RT3000 front
    -CS1000 center
    -FX1000 dipole
    Polk Audio PSW1000 5.1 sub
    Polk Audio microPRO 4000 x2 5.2 subs

  15. #15

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    I suspect whether it is 'bi-wire' or 'single wire' !! can you please check that again ?

  16. #16

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    xiaomingzc reported
    If you can't hear a difference, don't waste your money.

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