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  1. #1

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    Default Things you should Know about Speakers

    Very Interesting read..
    Lets see if we can keep it civilized Please..
    http://www.audioholics.com/education...y-loudspeakers

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    I think what it all boils down to is that $100,000 speakers do not sound 100,000 times better than $1000 speakers. And speakers are probably the one thing that really becomes a matter a personal preference after a certain price point.

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    I personally don't recognize any of the writings from Audioholics most of it is rhetoric and even if there is a tinge of truth to some of it here and there, it's usually so overblown with hyperbole it comes off as ranting, but hey if it blows your skirt up then so be it.

    H9
    Last edited by heiney9; 03-17-2013 at 04:11 PM.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

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    I just put it out there to inform people of things they may not know, now I'm not sure it's 100% accurate either..
    But I'm not sure that every review I have ever read was 100% accurate either and that's what they tell amongst a plethora of other info.
    I'm sure it will enlighten a bunch of people who think they know it all..or not..lol

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    Hello, Jhayman. It's not a bad link but with that said, there are so many things that are situation dependent, it completely depends where one is along their own audio journey. For some, this may be enlightening. For others, this covers the basics and does not apply to them anymore.

    Tom
    In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

    The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction.

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    Profit is a good thing...it keeps people working. As a whole the audiophile is an easy mark for the hucksters out there. Whatever the market will bear sets the stage for pricing. If good 'ole WC Fields was around today he'd probably die of laughter at how easy a mark we are...myself included. Please don't start with cables, those guys wrote the book on how to empty one's wallet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pearsall001 View Post
    Profit is a good thing...it keeps people working. As a whole the audiophile is an easy mark for the hucksters out there. Whatever the market will bear sets the stage for pricing. If good 'ole WC Fields was around today he'd probably die of laughter at how easy a mark we are...myself included. Please don't start with cables, those guys wrote the book on how to empty one's wallet.
    So true!
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    Pretty contradictory there Phil, how can you say whatever the market will bear in one sentence and then make a comment about being an easy mark? Why is it because the market will bear a high price you automatically think it's snake oil? Some is for sure, but that goes with anything sold in the free market. Not to mention we all have different dollar to value thresholds. So just because I'm willing to spend $1000 on cables and you are willing to spend $200, that automatically makes me an easy mark?

    Hogwash

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

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    The article sounded to me like someones personal rant against profits. As far as not knowing anything in that article, pretty silly stuff if you ask me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    Pretty contradictory there Phil, how can you say whatever the market will bear in one sentence and then make a comment about being an easy mark? Why is it because the market will bear a high price you automatically think it's snake oil? Some is for sure, but that goes with anything sold in the free market. Not to mention we all have different dollar to value thresholds. So just because I'm willing to spend $1000 on cables and you are willing to spend $200, that automatically makes me an easy mark?

    Hogwash

    H9
    Not so hogwashy at all - buy some Monster Cables down at Best buy. What did you get? You are #1 an easy mark and you bought into some very nasty tasting snake oil. Way over priced and not very good but advertised as the best damn thing in audio and has been that way for years. You just bought into a very carefully calculated "market bear".
    Visit any box store and there you will find the carefully crafted art of "audiophile" presented as a very good buy and you'll get crap in return. If those that bought that stuff weren't an easy mark it wouldn't sell - anywhere.
    Aaron

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    BOSE speakers suck!

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    Quote Originally Posted by KLapinas View Post
    BOSE speakers suck!
    I didn't want to hit all of the easy marks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ALL212 View Post
    I didn't want to hit all of the easy marks.
    I thought most people new that already, but I wanted to make sure.

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    I think that sometimes we forget about the diminishing returns effect. Sure I can spend $200 and you can spend $2000 and he can spend $20000. Who got the best deal and increased their listening pleasure the most?

    It will be up to your pocket book, your head and most importantly YOUR ears (not someone else's ears or opinions).

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    Quote Originally Posted by KLapinas View Post
    BOSE speakers suck!
    You've done it now. You're going to get accused of brand bashing, being rude and acting like a six year old girl. Oh wait, that's only if you say anything bad about emo or drinking Kool-Aid.
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

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    Aaron

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    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    You've done it now. You're going to get accused of brand bashing, being rude and acting like a six year old girl. Oh wait, that's only if you say anything bad about emo or drinking Kool-Aid.

    Uhhhh.........sorry?

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    don't bother - it's kind of an inside "other post not worth going over again" kinda thing.

    Nice one F1!

    96...
    Aaron

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    Quote Originally Posted by ALL212 View Post
    don't bother - it's kind of an inside "other post not worth going over again" kinda thing.

    Nice one F1!

    96...
    Gotcha.

    I wasn't really sorry anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    You've done it now. You're going to get accused of brand bashing, being rude and acting like a six year old girl. Oh wait, that's only if you say anything bad about emo or drinking Kool-Aid.
    No more logical statements from you. It's unbecoming.
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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    Pretty contradictory there Phil, how can you say whatever the market will bear in one sentence and then make a comment about being an easy mark? Why is it because the market will bear a high price you automatically think it's snake oil? Some is for sure, but that goes with anything sold in the free market. Not to mention we all have different dollar to value thresholds. So just because I'm willing to spend $1000 on cables and you are willing to spend $200, that automatically makes me an easy mark?

    Hogwash

    H9
    How deep one's pockets are doesn't really matter. We've all been taken on the audio magic carpet ride & left with the wallet lightened.

    Quote Originally Posted by tonyb View Post
    The article sounded to me like someones personal rant against profits. As far as not knowing anything in that article, pretty silly stuff if you ask me.
    Ah, come on Tony...that article was dead on, we've all bitten on the audio BS slung by the manuf. They're pros at it for sure. Live & learn.
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  22. #22

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    You can relate that article to nearly most consumer product lines
    Home Theater:Samsung8000-55LED,Pioneer SC35, Pioneer DV-79AVi, Sunfire TGA7201, LSi25, LCi RTSc, LC80i
    2chnl system:Melody 101 tube pre, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, W4S Dac, MG Audio Planus2 speaker cables
    Office rig: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures

  23. #23

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    Ok...this might get me booted...

    "This is the pinnacle of home audio performance."

    Who's website? Do you agree?

    Talk amongst yourselves...
    Last edited by ALL212; 03-17-2013 at 11:27 PM.
    Aaron

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    Quote Originally Posted by ALL212 View Post
    Ok...this might get me booted...

    "This is the pinnacle of home audio performance."

    Who's website? Do you agree?

    Talk amongst yourselves...
    LSiM page. I was/am in for hosting a demo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pearsall001 View Post
    How deep one's pockets are doesn't really matter. We've all been taken on the audio magic carpet ride & left with the wallet lightened.



    Ah, come on Tony...that article was dead on, we've all bitten on the audio BS slung by the manuf. They're pros at it for sure. Live & learn.
    Phil, please tell me how what you speak of is any different than the billions of other products on the market? Why are you hell bent on trying pound this phenomenon home in regards to audio when it happens with every good or service produced on the planet.

    I am sorry if you made some poor choices and can still taste the bitterness, but that's on you not the industry.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

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    It's all relative to your relativity. Bose is some folks pinnacle. I'd recommend experience before allowing Audioholics or manufacturers to make decisons for you/me.

    I sold some big old Cerwin Vega's for a friend who had no ebay account, local P/U. Had them set up in my listening room connected to my gear (best they ever sounded, to me anyway). The guy heard em, paid, loaded up, and asked about hearing my speakers. 20 seconds in he jumps up, says he can't stand it. His girlfriend says "wow, it sounds like they are in the room with us." I guess CV was his pinnacle, and she seemed open and honest in reaction to liking what he didn't. God bless, to each their own.
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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post

    I am sorry if you made some poor choices and can still taste the bitterness, but that's on you not the industry.

    H9
    I disagree - Find any manufactures web page and read. Will any of them tell you that there is a better product for less cost? No - they will ALL claim that their product is the best and you could not possibly spend less to reach that pinnacle. Read the industry magazines - will the reviews be biased based on advertising - absolutely. Will they say that - absolutely not.

    We do all have to make decisions, some good, some bad. But because of the way advertising (in any market) works we cannot rely at all on anything other than our own experience. And how do we attain that experience? By buying into something at some point in time. We read the advertising, we trust a vendor. You may end up not liking what you purchased. Is it truly on you at that point? I don't think so. We attempt to trust marketing/advertising. In most cases it lies to us. At that point it is not at all our fault and is entirely the fault of the industry.

    The industry does have the option of telling us the truth. If it did many businesses would close.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    Phil, please tell me how what you speak of is any different than the billions of other products on the market? Why are you hell bent on trying pound this phenomenon home in regards to audio when it happens with every good or service produced on the planet.
    Brock,
    I think my point on this would be that we happen to be consumers in this particular market. Yes, it does happen in many other markets but on this webpage, sponsored by this audio market, written to supposed audiophiles it applies here.
    Why are you hell bent on defending a market that is rife with charmers and snakeoil? The standards for this industry have changed so many times over just the past 30 years that it becomes almost impossible for the average consumer to make heads or tails out of what might be in the box they are staring at.

    Example 1: Cryo treatment in the audio market. To what standard is that held? Shouldn't there be something that tells me to what temperature and for how long that device was cryo'd at? I can stick something in my freezer for 15 minutes and it is now Cryo'd in the audio market. I'll sell you the aluminum siding off of my house for $50/square foot - it's been cryo'd and will make wonderful cases for your equipment. Other industries cannot call anything cryo'd unless it meets a very specific set of conditions.

    Example 2: Amplifier power ratings. Strange things have happened here! I have the spec sheet for an amp that was made in the late 1970's. It rates the power on this amp in four different ways - I have continuous power from 20 to 20k hz, I have continuous power at 1000 hz (both 8 ohm and 4 ohm) both channels driven, I have continuous power at 1000 hz (both 8 ohm and 4 ohm) each channel driven and (deep breath) IHF music power at 1000 hz (4 and 8 ohms). Wow...I know how much power that amp has. Let's walk down the isle at the local box store. LOOK! 900 watt amplifiers!! damn!!! Now read the fine print...that's 50 watts on one side of one channel times 9 channels. Is that RMS rated and at what ohm? 20 to 20k hz or just at 1k hz?

    Now take me to the isle with the 9 channel media...

    A2
    Last edited by ALL212; 03-18-2013 at 07:02 AM.
    Aaron

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    A little free advice (and worth every penny) :-)

    1) Becoming conversant with "the laws of physics" (and, for most hifi purposes, you can stick to the pre-relativistic, Newtonian model) will help protect one from becoming easy prey for the snake oil conglomerate.

    2) Trust your ears. Listen, a lot, to as many different things as you can.

    3) If you read through a website like this one: http://jinnwe.com/quest.php?id=1259 and say to yourself "wow, that's really interesting"... it's probably time to buy some cable elevators and Magic Pebbles.
    all the best,
    mrh

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    Quote Originally Posted by ALL212 View Post
    I disagree - Find any manufactures web page and read. Will any of them tell you that there is a better product for less cost? No - they will ALL claim that their product is the best and you could not possibly spend less to reach that pinnacle. Read the industry magazines - will the reviews be biased based on advertising - absolutely. Will they say that - absolutely not.

    We do all have to make decisions, some good, some bad. But because of the way advertising (in any market) works we cannot rely at all on anything other than our own experience. And how do we attain that experience? By buying into something at some point in time. We read the advertising, we trust a vendor. You may end up not liking what you purchased. Is it truly on you at that point? I don't think so. We attempt to trust marketing/advertising. In most cases it lies to us. At that point it is not at all our fault and is entirely the fault of the industry.

    The industry does have the option of telling us the truth. If it did many businesses would close.
    Aaron,

    Ever been to Callaway's or Taylor Made's or Ping's website or seen their ads on TV or print. Each tout the latest greatest new polymer-titanium-bonded-flex proof shaft with some sort of space age composite head with adjustable weights and loft. Do they tell the truth about their product or other products on the market? Do they claim theirs is the best? Of course they do (in case you didn't know the answer) I would say $500 for a driver is insanity and snake-oil and not worth it at all. But there are many golfers out there that pay it, believe it, and might even play a little better because of it (atleast psychologically). It doesn't make them wrong, or wasteful or that the company lied or misled, etc.

    You may not know but Phil and I go back a bit, met at a couple Polkfests and we each have a slightly different perspective and enjoy a good debate although he is wrong .

    My point is I'm tired of the rhetoric about cost/snake oil/fleecing/profit, etc. as if this is the singular industry this happens in. It's a fact of free enterprise. And if enough people didn't find value in higher end items, then they wouldn't be in business.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

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