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Thread: Holy Grail

  1. #1

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    Default Holy Grail

    I finally found my Holy Grail tube for the Dared SL2000A pre-amp. I've tried about a dozen different types and years of 12AT7/ECC81 variants. Some better than others. I also have tried about 1/2 dozen rectifiers and settled on the best one I've heard.

    I have been very good lately not looking for or buying any tubes since I have enough to last me a lifetime at this point. But there was one type I had read a lot about but is very rare to find in the US. I have seen them for sale on Ebay from Europe but I never could find a great deal.

    I already have my 3 favorite tube types so I wasn't going to spend an arm and a leg to try another type when I was unsure about how it would sound. I finally found a triple for sale here in the US from a seller I felt comfortable dealing with.

    My former top contenders were the Telefunken ECC801S and Valvo (Hamburg) 6201 gold pins and 50's Raytheon 6414 triple mica blk plate.

    The holy grail tube all 12AT7/ECC81 owners need to try is the Telefunken long plate 5965.

    All I can say is WOW. This tube has the best bass response I've heard yet, deep, textured, extended and very "real" sounding and fast. The midrange is to die for! The highs are so smooth and detailed. That 3D "in the room" sound tubes provide (I call it soul of the music) is even more impressive. Didn't think it was possible to get even more delineation between instruments, vocals, drums, etc. The entire soundstage is expanded as if every sound has it's own place in space

    I was blown away

    H9

    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

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    Brent Jesse has these right for sale right now.

    http://www.audiotubes.com/12at7.htm
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

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    Congrat's Heiney. The Holy Grail is hard to come by. Enjoy the music.
    In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

    "The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction". - Kenneth Swauger

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    You can see the structure better here
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

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    Congrats Brock,, I'm guessing that at this point,you have built up quite a stash.Thanks for posting this.
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)

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    Congrats!
    Linn AV5140 fronts
    Linn AV5120 Center
    Linn AV5140 Rears
    M&K MX-70 Sub for Music
    Odyssey Mono-Blocs
    SVS Ultra-13 Gloss Black:D

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    Quote Originally Posted by george daniel View Post
    Congrats Brock,, I'm guessing that at this point,you have built up quite a stash.Thanks for posting this.
    I have George. These are just absolutely stunning me right now. They sound so "right". Goose bump time. I am a fan of any Telefunken tube anyway, but these are special so far.

    The synergy is amazing. Hard to leave the sweet spot :tongue:

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

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    This a mellow tube (not like Mullard mellow) that still has detail in spades and the sound sneaks up on you, the midrange is so "real". It's one of those tubes that you don't realize how good it is until you roll in something else and you start noticing little, subtle things missing.

    A keeper for sure.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

  9. #9

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    Let me get out the check book,haha, I wish.
    PolkAudioClyde

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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    Brent Jesse has these right for sale right now.

    http://www.audiotubes.com/12at7.htm

    Does he allow local pickup?

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    I believe he does. I know Doug (dkg999) has stopped in to pick up some tubes, IIRC.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

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    H9, have you tried them vs. the Psvane? If so, what did you find?

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    Nope, I am not a big current production tube guy. I'd be willing to try a pair, but I just don't buy current production tubes. Of the current production tubes I have used none of them even comes close to the old production tubes, so I stopped trying. I know the Psvane get glowing reviews so it's probably not fair for me to dismiss them. But I've tried other current tubes that people swear by and sometimes wonder what they are hearing.

    They are on my list to try one of these days and if I don't care for them I can always flip them, I suppose.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

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    Can these be used in a 12ax7 circut, or in a 12at7 circut ?

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    Congrats!!!! I bet it sounds amazing. That preamp is still on my to try list
    !!!! now i know what tubes to get right off the bat lol .

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    Quote Originally Posted by rubin View Post
    Can these be used in a 12ax7 circut, or in a 12at7 circut ?
    12AT7.

    The 5965 is also a sub for the 12AV7 but ironically a 12AV7 can't be subbed for a 12AT7. Atleast it's not recommended.

    5965

    This industrial tube is close enough to the 12AT7 that audiophiles have started buying them up and commenting on the low noise of this tube. It most likely is because it has a lower gain, a mu of 47 compared to 60 of a 12AT7. It is kind of like using a 5751 in place of a 12AX7--the lower gain being the main difference. These tubes are still plentiful, and are really well made. GE made a fine version of this tube in their "5-Star" broadcast line. A few have an extra mica spacer on top, known as "triple mica" and noted for lower microphonics. There is also a rare Telefunken version of this tube with long plates.

    The 12AT7 is a high-frequency twin triode in a small 9-pin miniature glass package. This tube has a mu factor of 60, as compared to the higher gain 12AX7 with a factor of 100, and the 12AU7, with a mu of only 20. As you can see, it shares similar pin connections with it's cousins, but these tubes are not interchangeable. The 12AT7 is found in many high fidelity applications, as each triode section in normal use operates as a class A amplifier. They also turn up in line and microphone preamplifiers, musical instrument amps, and vacuum tube equipped recording equipment. By their design, they are inherently low noise, making them a good choice for these applications.

    What's hot these days with these tubes? Right now, most of the vintage 12AT7 tubes are a great bargain, as the spotlight is still on the vintage 12AX7 and 12AU7 varieties. Both the USA and West Europe versions of this tube are just as well made as their famous cousins, but they were used less in hifi gear, and more in professional preamps and recording equipment. Those of you with a hifi preamp using the 12AT7, as well as owners of pro line and mike preamps, will find a refreshing change from the usual high prices of other vintage twin triodes. Both the vintage USA and European versions of this tube are excellent. I can't think of any brand, even "off brands" that made a crummy vintage 12AT7. Of course, the stellar performers are still the big boys: Telefunken, Mullard, Amperex, and RCA.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

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    Yep, these are it! I've finally hit audio nirvana. These are the ones!!!!!

    A small note, since these are 17mm long plates they tend to be like the 7062 or 6414 in that they can be slightly mircophonic. One started a very low level howl which was quicklt abated with a tube damper. Been running them all day and the problem hasn't come back.

    These are simply the most fantastic tubes I've heard in the Dared pre-amp. Hard to describe their character beyond what I already said. These have it all!!!

    The synergy is off the charts on this one. :tongue:

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

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    Congrats Brock!

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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    12AT7.

    The 5965 is also a sub for the 12AV7 but ironically a 12AV7 can't be subbed for a 12AT7. Atleast it's not recommended.
    FWIW I have rolled everything from an 12AX7 in a 12AU7 spot to 12AT7 in a 12AX7 sport with no problems. The one thing that I try to maintain is the voltage step in amps. For instance if the path goes AX then AT stock I might go AT then AU to see if I like it.
    If life had more tubes it would be a lot smoother.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    Nope, I am not a big current production tube guy.
    H9
    I am not either, but I gave the Psvane's a chance and like them. I did the same thing with my Treasure 6CA7's. I am by no means saying the Psvanes are as good as those Tele's. They are about a Benjamin less in price *shrug*. Your report is so enthusiastic in favor of the new tubes that I might have to buy a pair of these Telefunkens myself. Like you said, flippin good tubes is easy.

    Since we have the same pre, it really is nice to hear your reviews. That said, you seem to have waaay more tube knowledge than I do. Keep 'em coming!

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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    Yep, these are it! I've finally hit audio nirvana. These are the ones!!!!!

    The synergy is off the charts on this one. :tongue:

    H9
    Congrats Brock! It's nice to be on the other side! :tongue:
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LessisNevermore View Post
    Congrats Brock!
    Thanks Duell!
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CSM41 View Post
    I am not either, but I gave the Psvane's a chance and like them. I did the same thing with my Treasure 6CA7's. I am by no means saying the Psvanes are as good as those Tele's. They are about a Benjamin less in price *shrug*. Your report is so enthusiastic in favor of the new tubes that I might have to buy a pair of these Telefunkens myself. Like you said, flippin good tubes is easy.

    Since we have the same pre, it really is nice to hear your reviews. That said, you seem to have waaay more tube knowledge than I do. Keep 'em coming!
    I bought these for dirt!!! But, I have been waiting for about a year that weren't expensive. The wait was worth it. But I may try to pick up a spare from a dealer while he has them......we'll see. I hate paying a lot for a tube I want to try because if it doesn't work out it's too much money. Now I know these are great, I'm willing to spend a little more.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

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    Congrats Brock!! Sounds like you're tickled pink with your new find. Well worth the wait for sure. Enjoy!!! I might check it out for my dac.
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    Actually just found out that there are two versions of this tube. The early version has two crimps for the plates and the chrome strip on the side of the plate has the center cut out. The later version has three crimps on the plate and the chrome strip on the side is whole except for two tiny holes.

    Early dates from the 50's, late dates from the 60's other wise they look the same. I have two late and one early. Now I'm on the hunt for an early to mate with the single I have.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

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    Good Job! My PV-5 pre uses 2 5965's and I have Sylvania Gold's in there now. I'll have to see if I can find some of these Telefunkens to compare, but just blew my budget on 6 Mullard (Shield Logo) M8162/CV4024's for my amp.

    I'm surprised by the drastic bass improvement versus the 12AT7/ECC81's your pre came with as the 5965's have a 22% lower gain (a mu of 47 compared to 60).

    The lower gain from your pre must cause the amp to draw down into an output range where it is happier, and then the lower noise floor and improvements those 5965's facilitate must show through.
    Last edited by inspiredsports; 03-27-2011 at 07:05 PM.
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    The ECC801S is a little thinner sounding tube in the bass, still solid for sure. But this tube has such an organic texture and bass seems to extend forever. It's not just the gain in a tube that determines it's sonic characteristics. I have GE 6201's 5 star black plate that sound huge and have a tad too muddy bass compared to the Valvo 6201 and they have identical gain.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

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    I've been trying to convince myself to sell my barely used quad of NOS Telefunken ECC801S's (probably 400 hours on what is said to be a 10 or 11,000 hour tube) as that would free up some cash to keep my habit going, but I know I will end up kicking myself if I do.

    At any rate, you've got me looking for funds and itching to try a pair of these now
    VTL ST50 w/mods/RCA6L6GC/TlfnknECC801S
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    Greg, you will kick yourself if you sell them. Keep them, I still like them but these 5965's are really pushing the right buttons.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

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    H9, out of curiosity, what do you use in the rest of your system? I know you have the Dared pre. I ask because IMHO, system/tube synergy makes a difference.

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