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  1. #1

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    Default Amp or Receiver Bi-Amp

    I was wondering if an Emotiva XPA-200 would be better for my Rti10’s. I am currently running my Onkyo TX-NR709 bi-amped to them. Now, 110w+110w=220w and that would be better than the 150w of the Emotiva, but I get the feeling that calculation is based upon “stupid math” and not all needed variables for real world results lol. Someone break it down for me, if possible, how the Emotiva is (likely) better than my Onkyo bi-amped. I’m sure impedance comes into play somehow (?) Thank you!

    Also, I plan to someday upgrade to a pair of Lsi25's or Lsi15's. I know the receiver is 4ohm capable, and I... BELIEVE... it is capable of bi-amping in 4ohm? And I'm guessing that the 15's would be bi-ampable, but not the 25's. With that in mind, would it be better to get the 15's, bi-amp, and get 1/2 good quality sub(s)? I listen to a LOT of music, but also watch a LOT of movies, so I guess 50/50. I know music tends to favor towers with full range vs towers + seperate sub. Price entirely aside between the 25's & 15's.
    Last edited by Velocitydreamer; 03-22-2013 at 11:09 AM.
    Livingroom:
    Source: Performance HTPC
    Projector:
    Screen:
    Receiver: Lame Onkyo
    System: Monitor 70's, 40's, CS2
    Sub-woofer: M&K V-75 mkII

    Retired:
    Displays: TC-L55E5, KDL55EX500
    Receiver: SC-57, VSX-42, TX-NR709, AVR-247
    Tower: RT3000P (Black Oak & Rosewood), RT2000P, RT1000P, RTi10, RTi100, RTi70, OM-6
    Bookshelf: RT55p, RTi6, RTi38; OM-RS2; FX1000
    Center: CS1000p, CS400, CSi40, CSi5, CS1; VC-10; OM-C2
    Sub-woofer: BPS-400, RW-12 (x2), VRP-1200

  2. #2
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    Almost any separate amp is better for driving speakers than a receiver, just because of their design compromises.

  3. #3
    Audiophile
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    I really like the LSi25s because they not only have powered subs built-in, but that also makes them easier to drive with an amp.

  4. #4

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    Default

    Yeah, not long ago I had a set of RT3000P's and loved them. With the tight, heavy hitting bass they produced alone, I sold both my Klipsch RW-12's lol (now I kinda wish I'd have kept one)... I get the feeling the Lsi25's won't punch as hard, or fill the room with as much air moving pressure? (my livingroom really isn't that big, but I don't care :P ) I want a lot of smooth dropping, low bass, but wouldn't mind sacrificing a bit to run a system without seperate sub. I'll probably do as you said and run the 25's... in that case, I may just stick with my receiver, as the 25's will have the bottom end powered by the internal amp, and it's more than adequate to power any side and rear bookshelves I get I imagine.
    Livingroom:
    Source: Performance HTPC
    Projector:
    Screen:
    Receiver: Lame Onkyo
    System: Monitor 70's, 40's, CS2
    Sub-woofer: M&K V-75 mkII

    Retired:
    Displays: TC-L55E5, KDL55EX500
    Receiver: SC-57, VSX-42, TX-NR709, AVR-247
    Tower: RT3000P (Black Oak & Rosewood), RT2000P, RT1000P, RTi10, RTi100, RTi70, OM-6
    Bookshelf: RT55p, RTi6, RTi38; OM-RS2; FX1000
    Center: CS1000p, CS400, CSi40, CSi5, CS1; VC-10; OM-C2
    Sub-woofer: BPS-400, RW-12 (x2), VRP-1200

  5. #5

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    Default

    FYI, because your Onkyo's amp section draws from a common store of power, 110w + 110w doesn't equal 220w unless all of the other channels are silent. That's why you'll see people saying that bi-amping from a receiver is pointless. I still think you'd benefit from adding a separate amp, and I damn sure wouldn't run a 4 ohm speaker off the Onkyo and expect it to reach its potential. Changing the Onkyo to 4 ohm operation basically turns on current limiting so the AVR doesn't overheat from the extra load, and an external amp capable of actually handling 4 ohm speakers would be preferable.
    Equipment list:
    Onkyo TX-NR3010 9.2 AVR
    Emotiva XPA-3 amp
    Polk RTi70 mains, CSi40 center, RTi38 surrounds, RTi28 rears and heights
    SVS 20-39CS+ subwoofer powered by Crown XLS1500
    Oppo BDP-93 Blu-ray player
    DarbeeVision DVP5000 video processor
    Epson 8500UB 1080p projector
    Elite Screens Sable 120" CineWhite screen

  6. #6

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    So you're saying that an Lsi25 would run best off an external amp? Also, drawing from a common store of power, using a 7.1 receiver for a 5.1 setup, shouldn't the store used for those extra 2 channels be used in addition to the front channels. I would figure with that logic, you still equate to 110+110. I'm sure I'm missunderstanding, which is why I'm explaining my current understanding of what you said, so that I can be corrected :)
    Livingroom:
    Source: Performance HTPC
    Projector:
    Screen:
    Receiver: Lame Onkyo
    System: Monitor 70's, 40's, CS2
    Sub-woofer: M&K V-75 mkII

    Retired:
    Displays: TC-L55E5, KDL55EX500
    Receiver: SC-57, VSX-42, TX-NR709, AVR-247
    Tower: RT3000P (Black Oak & Rosewood), RT2000P, RT1000P, RTi10, RTi100, RTi70, OM-6
    Bookshelf: RT55p, RTi6, RTi38; OM-RS2; FX1000
    Center: CS1000p, CS400, CSi40, CSi5, CS1; VC-10; OM-C2
    Sub-woofer: BPS-400, RW-12 (x2), VRP-1200

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocitydreamer View Post
    So you're saying that an Lsi25 would run best off an external amp? Also, drawing from a common store of power, using a 7.1 receiver for a 5.1 setup, shouldn't the store used for those extra 2 channels be used in addition to the front channels. I would figure with that logic, you still equate to 110+110. I'm sure I'm missunderstanding, which is why I'm explaining my current understanding of what you said, so that I can be corrected :)
    In real world use when you are watching a movie, all channels are never called upon to deliver full power (or significant power for that matter) simultaneously. Mass market manufacturers take this into account in their designs. Why build a receiver with a power supply large enough to power all channels to their maximum (with its extra cost) when it will never be needed in actual use ? The solution is to make the power supply just large enough to power two or three channels simultaneously at any given time. This helps make AVRs more affordable, despite all the latest bells and whistles.

    Look at this Onkyo TXDS696 rated at 100W x 5. Does it look like a 500 watt class AB amp inside ? No. Under bench test, it delivered 151 watts into one channel at 8 ohms, and 46 watts into all five channels simultaneously at 8 ohms. The power supply does not have the current capability to deliver 500W. This is typical of mass market receivers. In actual use on movie material, this AVR never sounded like it was running out of power.

    If you want to bi-amp, get a good multichannel amp, couple of 2-channel amps or monoblocks.

    Last edited by Glen B; 03-22-2013 at 05:29 PM.
    Main system: Denon DP-59L | Audio-Technica AT33EV | Marantz Reference Series SA-11S2 | Classé CP-50, modified | Classé CA-300, modified | Classé DR-10, modified | Classé RC-1 | PSB Stratus Gold i's | DIY Balanced AC Power Conditioner with surge/spike suppression | Acoustic Zen and NeoTech cables | Oyaide and Furutech AC power connectors and receptacles | Hi-Fi Tuning Supreme fuses | Dedicated 20A IG AC line

  8. #8

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    Great info and explanation
    Sharp LC-80uq17u
    Denon 3808ci Receiver
    OPPO BDP-93 Blu-Ray Disc Player
    Monster HTS 3600
    Polk RTi-a7 (fronts)
    Polk CSi-a6 (Center)
    Polk TC-60i (Rear & Surround Rear)
    HSU Research VTF3-MK4 (Sub)
    Logitech Harmony 900 (Remote)

  9. #9

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    Thanks a TON Glen, that makes a lot of sense... just needed someone to shed light on the "why's." Thanks again!
    Livingroom:
    Source: Performance HTPC
    Projector:
    Screen:
    Receiver: Lame Onkyo
    System: Monitor 70's, 40's, CS2
    Sub-woofer: M&K V-75 mkII

    Retired:
    Displays: TC-L55E5, KDL55EX500
    Receiver: SC-57, VSX-42, TX-NR709, AVR-247
    Tower: RT3000P (Black Oak & Rosewood), RT2000P, RT1000P, RTi10, RTi100, RTi70, OM-6
    Bookshelf: RT55p, RTi6, RTi38; OM-RS2; FX1000
    Center: CS1000p, CS400, CSi40, CSi5, CS1; VC-10; OM-C2
    Sub-woofer: BPS-400, RW-12 (x2), VRP-1200

  10. #10

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    Default

    One last noob question that has had me wondering for a long time... the Rti10's are about 3-4ft away from the TV, and I have them pointed towards the most common seated position in the room... should I do that, or should I have the backs of the speakers parallel to the wall? Also, I thought I read something about the Rti10's either needing to be pulled out from the wall, or closer... coulda swore it was pulled out from the wall, and I usually run most my speakers closer to the wall. Clarification on this matter would be awesome, thanks a ton for your advice all!
    Livingroom:
    Source: Performance HTPC
    Projector:
    Screen:
    Receiver: Lame Onkyo
    System: Monitor 70's, 40's, CS2
    Sub-woofer: M&K V-75 mkII

    Retired:
    Displays: TC-L55E5, KDL55EX500
    Receiver: SC-57, VSX-42, TX-NR709, AVR-247
    Tower: RT3000P (Black Oak & Rosewood), RT2000P, RT1000P, RTi10, RTi100, RTi70, OM-6
    Bookshelf: RT55p, RTi6, RTi38; OM-RS2; FX1000
    Center: CS1000p, CS400, CSi40, CSi5, CS1; VC-10; OM-C2
    Sub-woofer: BPS-400, RW-12 (x2), VRP-1200

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