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  1. #121

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    Interesting article about this very topic. I'm sure everyone will have their varying opinions on this I'm sure. I'm a no sub guy myself for 2 channel, but it's a good read regardless.

    Subwoofers: A Brief Look at the Effectiveness of Using a Subwoofer in a Music System

  2. #122

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    I think Falconcry, pretty much hit it on the head. In a "dedicated" 2 channel, simple system. There is no way you can add a sub "correctly" without an outboard cross-over. Now what kind of outboard cross-over you can get to do this in the first place, i'm not even sure. But i don't see too many 2 channel people running out the door, to trade there hi dollar pre-amps for an AVR so they can add a sub to there system.



    In a large speaker such as the SDA's...without some outboard cross-over, you can't stop them from putting out bass, so even if you put a big dollar sub on there, you either going to end up with boomy bass, or just louder bass..not better bass.

    In any case, with properly set up SDA's and power amp, in the right size room, there is little or no need for a sub. The cost would seem to far out way any benefits you may, or may not get.

  3. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by naturallight View Post
    you can't stop them from putting out bass, so even if you put a big dollar sub on there, you either going to end up with boomy bass, or just louder bass..not better bass.
    That is so not true and very bad information.

  4. #124

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    Well without some type of cross-over...please tell me how you can do this??

  5. #125

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    REL google it buddy

  6. #126

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    I guess you have solved all the questions with that 3 letter responce....REL...must be the answer.

  7. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by naturallight View Post
    I think Falconcry, pretty much hit it on the head. In a "dedicated" 2 channel, simple system. There is no way you can add a sub "correctly" without an outboard cross-over. Now what kind of outboard cross-over you can get to do this in the first place, i'm not even sure. But i don't see too many 2 channel people running out the door, to trade there hi dollar pre-amps for an AVR so they can add a sub to there system.



    In a large speaker such as the SDA's...without some outboard cross-over, you can't stop them from putting out bass, so even if you put a big dollar sub on there, you either going to end up with boomy bass, or just louder bass..not better bass.

    In any case, with properly set up SDA's and power amp, in the right size room, there is little or no need for a sub. The cost would seem to far out way any benefits you may, or may not get.
    It's pretty tough take a guy seriously that jacks up the bass control on his SDA's and thinks he's somehow got the equal of a sub. You're more than welcome to stop by and play around with my set up. You won't hear any "boomy bass" there's no "AVR" and no external crossover. It's not as hard as you're making it out to be to integrate a quality sub into the mix. The results are outstanding and easily heard.
    main set up; modded polk 1.2tl's, recapped mcintosh mc2500, restored yamaha c4, clearaudio emotion, nano +beta woodbody, restored sansui tu9900, sony dvp 9000es, def tech pf18 sub, dedicated listening building

  8. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by naturallight View Post


    In a large speaker such as the SDA's...without some outboard cross-over, you can't stop them from putting out bass, so even if you put a big dollar sub on there, you either going to end up with boomy bass, or just louder bass..not better bass.

    In any case, with properly set up SDA's and power amp, in the right size room, there is little or no need for a sub. The cost would seem to far out way any benefits you may, or may not get.
    Wrong.

    you went from asking a question about subs and two channel to a professional all in a weeks time.lol

  9. #129

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    OK..hold the phone on this...first off i said i turned up the bass on the pre for yucks..and yes of course you get some more bass..did not say i do that as normal..nore did i say it's better then a 1K sub...so don't go nuts!!!


    The Fact Falconcry states that there is pretty much no way to "adjust" the bass on a 2 channel rig with a stock pre amp..IS the point. I agree with him. To adjust the speakers NOT to put out bass without a Cross-over, on a stock pre amp..WAS the point. SOOOO.....with out the cross-over to adjust what the speakers put out VS what the sub puts out......what do you have??? Speakers fighting the sub in the same Freq.


    Thats the point..nothing more. I'm not an HT guy, don't know crap about subs..never said i did. This is nothing more then a simple 2 channel setup...nothing more.

  10. #130

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    Let me put it this way, since you seem to be the end all know about subs and 2 channel systems.....
    How do you control the output of the SDA's VS the output of the sub..and i'm sure it had better be a dam good sub....so you have a total 100% intergrated system?????
    Last edited by naturallight; 04-05-2013 at 04:15 PM.

  11. #131

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    I'll tell you how I did it....I unplugged my 1c then I created a sine wave at 90 htz that fed through my system. I turned the volume on the sub all the way up and the sub gain on the pre to -15 (it goes to -20). Then I slowly turned up the volume on the pre until the sub was active but not blaring. Then I tuned the crossover on the sub just to where you can hear the pre has already cut the signal. I did this to each sub one at a time. Then I turned the subs off. I plugged in my 1c. I then turned on one sub and tuned the volume of the sub down to where I could just barely hear it add to the 1c. I turned that sub off and did the same with the other.

    I am not sure if this is the proper way or not but I can splash water out of a glass on my coffee table at +2 or +3 and still reasonably be able to converse over it or make it sound like you are talking into a fan. Or I can reduce the bass to where you would never know they were there. I find that the 1c like the help in the 30-70 range. I also find I have greater control over the lower frequencies though I have lost the 90+ capability. I do not fret as I can't remember ever running my sub xover higher than 90 for anything other than testing, quickly returning to the under 80 crowd. I also find that the plate amps still let a bit through if you open up the xover in the pre to 200 or 150 or what ever it is.

    It also appears as though I like the word I LOL.
    Last edited by SDA1C; 04-05-2013 at 04:42 PM.

  12. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    Watts never tell the final story about sound. A watt is a watt if you are just measuring its electrical properties. But watts don't mean squat beyond achieving SPL. Only the foolhardy judge sound quality and performance by rated wattage. There is far, far more to quality sound than watts.
    I absofreakinlutely agree 100% here! I wish many more of my customers from my car stereo days would have recognized this.

  13. #133

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    I haven't tried a sub with my sda's and don't plan on it but if i were to I believe a crossover frequency of 40-50 hz to be a better starting point as that appears to be where the SDA's start to taper somewhat. depending on the slope built into the sub amp you should be able to get a smoother response without removing the low end from the SDA's that way. Again that range is somewhat of a guestimate as I have not actually tried it.

  14. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    There's a lot of audio folks and a whole lot of speaker designers/companies that will vehemently disagree with that.
    I wouldn't expect anything less.
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  15. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by Face View Post
    The best placement for imaging, soundstage, is not always the same placement for the best bass response. Additional subs to smooth out bass response in the room can be a great thing, when done right. But getting it done right, can be far from simple. One has to account for delay(phase differences between mains and sub(s)), setting slope between mains and sub, level, etc... IMO, it works best between mains that are sealed due to their better impulse response and shallower roll off(12db opposed to 24db/octave). And to agree with Phil, it's not about additional bass, it's about better bass.

    Now that about designers and companies disagreeing, even Wilson Audio and Sonus Faber offer subs and will have someone come to your house to set up both. I've heard a few Sonus Faber and JL Audio setups dialed in by Sumiko and you wouldn't know there were separate subs in the room. In both cases the bass was phenomenal, clean and taut, without being overpowering or boomy.
    So true!!! But for some reason it's just a tough notion for a lot of guys to come to grips with. The best setup I heard was a pair of Focal Grande Utopia speakers flanked by dual Velo DD18's. Impressive doesn't begin to describe it. And to think those guys can't produce bass??? Bottom line there isn't a box speaker that can go toe to toe with a subwoofer. Physics & science at work here.
    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "
    Panny 65" 3D Plasma
    Yamaha AVENTAGE RX-A3010 AVR
    D>SONIC M2-600M mono's / mains
    Rotel RMB-1095 / 5 channel amp
    Rotel RMB-1075 / 5 channel amp
    TEAC UD - 501 DAC
    Oppo BDP-93
    SONOS System
    KEF Q900 / mains
    KEF Q600 / center
    KEF Q800 / surrounds
    KEF Q100 / rear surr.
    Def Tech ProMonitor 1000 / front & rear presence
    Velodyne SPL-1200R subs / dual pair
    DSPeaker Anti-Mode 8033 sub EQ
    Equitech Balanced Power Son of Q 1.5R
    Extensive room treatments

  16. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by naturallight View Post
    Let me put it this way, since you seem to be the end all know about subs and 2 channel systems.....
    How do you control the output of the SDA's VS the output of the sub..and i'm sure it had better be a dam good sub....so you have a total 100% intergrated system?????
    Lol; Me? The end all know it about 2 channels and subs? Hardly; there was a time I even stacked sda's but I won't eleborate on that misadventure.
    It's a very simple set up and tuned by ear. There's 2 pre outs on the back of the pre that I run. One goes to the amp powering the 1.2tl's full range and the other goes to a powered 18" sub. The lowest crossover point on the sub is 40hz so that's where I have it set. I have the sub's amp set at about 1/4 volume as anything beyond that it starts to overpower the polks bass and I certainly don't want that. At that setting there's no boom but there can be foundation rattling vibration if I turn it up. I can switch the sub off at a press of a button and it's like what the hell happened to music when that happens. Even songs with very little bass benefit greatly. I also run my pre with the tone controls bypassed. No need for loudness or bass boost.
    Do yourself a favor and go listen to a properly set up sub with a pair of big sda's and then you'll end your speculation much in the same way I did.
    main set up; modded polk 1.2tl's, recapped mcintosh mc2500, restored yamaha c4, clearaudio emotion, nano +beta woodbody, restored sansui tu9900, sony dvp 9000es, def tech pf18 sub, dedicated listening building

  17. #137

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    OK..I don't have the yamaha pre..I have an Adcom which dose not have the 2 pre outs.... but since you people think the sub buys you alot..I will leave it at that and call it a day. No reason to debate this anymore.

  18. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by naturallight View Post
    OK..I don't have the yamaha pre..I have an Adcom which dose not have the 2 pre outs.... but since you people think the sub buys you alot..I will leave it at that and call it a day. No reason to debate this anymore.
    There's no thinking the sub buys a lot; myself and several others know it to be a fact.
    It's a very simple procedure to split the outputs on your adcom with no degradation in sound when the day does come that you need to try out a quality sub. Until then enjoy your set up with or without the sub.
    main set up; modded polk 1.2tl's, recapped mcintosh mc2500, restored yamaha c4, clearaudio emotion, nano +beta woodbody, restored sansui tu9900, sony dvp 9000es, def tech pf18 sub, dedicated listening building

  19. #139

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    Yea pretty much the whole point in that subs are needed only by smaller speakers that don't have anything much below 100 hz. Because in fact setting up a sub to be used for music at 50 hz and below would be somewhat of a waste 97% of the time as most music doesn't have anything that low. Of course if you like your music super bass heavy then that would be a reason or if you use it during action movies only.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Bubbles View Post
    I haven't tried a sub with my sda's and don't plan on it but if i were to I believe a crossover frequency of 40-50 hz to be a better starting point as that appears to be where the SDA's start to taper somewhat. depending on the slope built into the sub amp you should be able to get a smoother response without removing the low end from the SDA's that way. Again that range is somewhat of a guestimate as I have not actually tried it.

  20. #140

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    My experience has found that relieving the main of the necessity to recreate the lower frequencies has greatly improved detail while giving that extra kick in the lower bid range just above the sub.

  21. #141

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    Coming late to the party. But no need for a sub just my .02

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