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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    You can see that this has been on my mind for a while. I had narrowed my choices to the Bryston 28BSST2 and the X600.5. The 28BSST2 offered more power (1000 wpc into 8 ohms) and costs 13% less than the X600.5, but the 28BSST2 is optimized for 8 ohm speakers. I was not fully confident about its performance with my 4 ohm 1.2TL's. The 28BSST2's output goes down to 900 wpc into 4 ohms. The X600.5 "doubles down" to 1200 wpc at 4 ohms.
    They're both balanced designs, so they will both have the same issues with low impedence loads. The difference being that Bryston always under-rates their amps.
    http://www.stereophile.com/content/b...r-measurements

    The Pass is spec'd at 1% THD; from Stereophile's results, had you cranked the Bryson until you hit 1%, you would get 1300 watts into 8 ohms and 1800 watts into 4 ohms.

    I'm not aware of a class A/AB amplifier that truly "doubles down"; manufactures just manipulate the THD at which they report wattage to give the appearance of doubling down. The good news is that at 600 watts into 8 ohms, it'll be far better than the 1% THD reported.

    In any case, they're both beasts and I'm sure you'll get plenty of enjoyment from the Pass.

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by unc2701 View Post
    They're both balanced designs, so they will both have the same issues with low impedence loads. The difference being that Bryston always under-rates their amps.
    http://www.stereophile.com/content/b...r-measurements

    The Pass is spec'd at 1% THD; from Stereophile's results, had you cranked the Bryson until you hit 1%, you would get 1300 watts into 8 ohms and 1800 watts into 4 ohms.
    My understanding is that the 28BSST2 can do 1000 watts continuous into 8 ohms, but not 1800 watts continuous into 4 ohms. My understanding is that the X600.5 ratings are for continuous power at 8 and 4 ohms. The 28BSST2 manual (pg. 4) lists 900 watts continuous into 4 ohms. Regarding the Stereophile review, which I had previously read, it is important to note that:

    "Into 4 ohms, the Bryston clipped at 1800W (29.5dBW, 117.5V wall voltage), though it couldn't maintain its high power into 2 ohms, delivering 1050W (24.2dBW, 116V wall voltage)."

    The following quote is from the X600.5 manual (pg. 7):

    "The Pass Laboratories X600.5 is optimized for loads nominally rated at 4 ohms and above. You can run the amplifiers into a lower nominal impedance without difficulty, and we are not aware of a speaker on the market that presents unusual difficulty with these amplifiers."

    Quote Originally Posted by unc2701 View Post
    I'm not aware of a class A/AB amplifier that truly "doubles down"; manufactures just manipulate the THD at which they report wattage to give the appearance of doubling down. The good news is that at 600 watts into 8 ohms, it'll be far better than the 1% THD reported.
    Thank you for your insights. Pass is also known for conservative power ratings. I sent your comments to Pass Labs. I will post their response here.


    Quote Originally Posted by unc2701 View Post
    I'm sure you'll get plenty of enjoyment from the Pass.
    We'll see.
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
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  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by unc2701 View Post
    They're both balanced designs, so they will both have the same issues with low impedence loads. The difference being that Bryston always under-rates their amps.
    http://www.stereophile.com/content/b...r-measurements

    The Pass is spec'd at 1% THD; from Stereophile's results, had you cranked the Bryson until you hit 1%, you would get 1300 watts into 8 ohms and 1800 watts into 4 ohms.

    I'm not aware of a class A/AB amplifier that truly "doubles down"; manufactures just manipulate the THD at which they report wattage to give the appearance of doubling down. The good news is that at 600 watts into 8 ohms, it'll be far better than the 1% THD reported.

    In any case, they're both beasts and I'm sure you'll get plenty of enjoyment from the Pass.
    Pass is one manufacturer that doesn't need to manipulate the specs. If anyone is conservative and completely upfront about the design and it's capabilities you won't find another enthusiast or manufacturer that doesn't use marketing speak to explain what's going on. You should read his owners manual's sometime.

    All that said, doesn't mean the B&K's are any better or any worse.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

  4. #34

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    Very nice, Ray.
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

  5. #35

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    Congrats DK!

    I'm just surprised that you are going to trade in your beloved JC 1's ?!!!

    I would have thought that you would move them down the line?



    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    If everything works out, the JC 1's will be traded in.
    Polk Audio SDA SRS 1.2TL's
    With new Exotic wood, Sonicaps, Mills & RDO198's - Born on 4-24-1989 and Signed by Matthew Polk!!!!


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  6. #36

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    Congrats,
    green with envy.
    wow, you're old JC1 monoblocks were my idea of a forever dream system, can't imagine the musical bliss of your new system.
    Definitely compare the 2 systems for us.

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lasareath View Post
    Congrats DK!

    I'm just surprised that you are going to trade in your beloved JC 1's ?!!!

    I would have thought that you would move them down the line?
    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    I also implemented a "no hoarding" rule in January of 2006 which stipulated that I must make a reasonable attempt to sell a piece of gear unless I have some current or future use for it.
    I went over it many times in my mind, but there was no way I could justify, or rationalize keeping the JC 1's. I don't have another system that it would make sense to put the JC 1's in. I would certainly miss them...if only for sentimental reasons.

    I still miss my Adcom GFA-5802, and I regret that I never got a chance to implement all the performance improvement tweaks that Adcom recommended.
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
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  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    I still miss my Adcom GFA-5802, and I regret that I never got a chance to implement all the performance improvement tweaks that Adcom recommended.
    Just a coincidence, and certainly not a "dig". . . .

    I woke this morning to find my 5802 and Cary SPL-98 idling. . . . I shook my head and said to moi, let's pop one in. There was a noticeably improved "warmth" to the sound. I normally listen 2-3 hours at a time. The Adcom is always fired-up cold (from room temp) but the Cary (Sweet Little Pre-98) is always on stand-by

    Anywho, I was impressed/surprised by the SQ diff. Do you think this is justification for NEVER turning your gear off (if you listen every other day)??? I think so . . .


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  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by GlennDog View Post
    Do you think this is justification for NEVER turning your gear off (if you listen every other day)??? I think so . . .
    I think so too. I never turn my two channel system gear off. I do turn off the gear in my secondary systems when I am not using them.
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
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  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    I think so too. I never turn my two channel system gear off. I do turn off the gear in my secondary systems when I am not using them.
    Ahhhhh. I was wondering why you included the power consumption at idle in your comparison.

    Anyhow, stereophile defines clipping as 1% THD, so the 1800 watts really is an apples to apples comparison with the Pass Labs 1200 watt spec... if you're going purely by specs. (The 900 watt figure given by Bryston is a result of that lump in the graph that crosses Bryston's tighter THD criteria)

    As for Pass conservatively rating their amps, that is certainly true in this case- I would bet that into 8 ohms it'd go to about 750-800 watts before it hit 1% THD. "Manipulating the spec" might be a misstatement here; rather, they chose to under-rate the 8 ohm performance to have a 4 ohm "double down" that you see with true class A designs.

    But with all things audio, the proof is when you actually get your ears on them. The Aleph is one amp I regret "pass"ing up and its specs look like crap next to just about any other amp I've owned.

  11. #41

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    Which Class A designs are you speaking of that double down? Certainly single ended Class A doesn't double down and many of the Class A First Watt amps and have less power at 4 ohms. What is a "true" Class A design?

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

  12. #42

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    DK, good job as always. If they sound as good as they look then you should be happy indeed. How many weeks before you start taking them apart for mods? It will be interesting to see some pictures of how they affect the AC. Will they be plugged into their own line, or your PS Audio conditioner?

    I too am getting close to an amp upgrade, but those Pass bad boys will take a bit to much out of my retirement fund. I am looking at the Classe CT-M600 which has similar specs. So far I have not been able to find anything negative about them, versus the Bryston 7B-SST which is also in my price range. Did you investigate the Classe?

    http://www.classeaudio.com/ctseries/ct-m600.htm

  13. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFox View Post
    How many weeks before you start taking them apart for mods?
    I would only mod this if it was something recommended...and approved in writing...by the factory.

    The only "mods" I have done with my Pass gear is change the fuses...and even that was done with written factory approval. The X600.5 does not use fuse protection. It has a magnetic circuit breaker.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFox View Post
    It will be interesting to see some pictures of how they affect the AC. Will they be plugged into their own line, or your PS Audio conditioner?
    They will be plugged directly into the wall. Each amp will have a dedicated 20 amp AC circuit...same as the JC 1's.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFox View Post
    Did you investigate the Classe?
    Briefly. I got the impression that they are more geared toward home theater enthusiasts rather than the sensibilities of two channel stereo enthusiasts.
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
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  14. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    Briefly. I got the impression that they are more geared toward home theater enthusiasts rather than the sensibilities of two channel stereo enthusiasts.
    Then maybe I should get CA-M600, which is the two channel version. Of course, it is the exact same amp in a pretty chassis for display.

    The drawback is it cost $500 more for the chassis. Anyway, again, congratulations. I am thinking of the XP-20 pre-amp as my pre upgrade.

    http://www.classeaudio.com/delta/delta-cam600.htm

  15. #45

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    This is the response, in its entirety, that I received from Desmond Harrington, Pass Labs' president and head of industrial (mechanical and aesthetic) design:

    "Dear Ray,

    Continuous power ratings are miss leading because music is not continuous. In the case of the X600.5, most people never see the meter move which means they are running around 40 watts. If you have inefficient speakers and play music very loud you will get the meter to move. If you play so loud that the meter stays between 1 and 2 o'clock, this means that you are putting out about 800-1000 watts (4 ohms). If you really push the amp you will get 1200 watts but your distortion will be a couple of % and above. At those levels you would not be able to hear 10%. At those levels the amp will get hot and may shut down after a few hours.

    We do not measure the amps into 2 ohms, because the AC line starts to sag at that point. However we can take a guess at what the amp will do based on the supply. You will not get 2400 watts continuous out of the X600.5, it will be more like the 4 ohm rating.

    Let me know if you have any other questions,

    Best regards,

    Desmond."


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Well, I don't know of any home audio speakers that can absorb 1000-1200 watts continuous, but its nice to know that if that kind of transient power is needed, it will be available.
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
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  16. #46

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    As a HUGE fan of the Pass Labs products, you get a big thumbs up from me.

    Can't wait to read your impressions.
    "Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip
    I may have an addiction... RTA-15TL, SDA 2, LSi25, LSi15, LSi9, LSi7, LSiCx2, LSiFX, LS/FX, RT/FX, DSW MP2000...and that's just the Polks...

  17. #47

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    Sort of a side note, Ray, was Boulder ever a consideration? Just curious because I have yet to put my ears on anything of theirs I didn't like. Now...granted...the 3050 might be overkill at 2000w@4ohms...and 355lbs each but my god are they amazing. Hehe.
    "Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip
    I may have an addiction... RTA-15TL, SDA 2, LSi25, LSi15, LSi9, LSi7, LSiCx2, LSiFX, LS/FX, RT/FX, DSW MP2000...and that's just the Polks...

  18. #48

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    In response to DK's post#45

    When running my XA30.5 with my Usher MD2's (90db 4ohm) my meters never move till 100db which is way to loud.
    When running the amp with my Dynaudio C1 II's (85db 4ohm) the meter moves before getting to reference...I love my Pass

    I hope you like yours too.
    Home Theater:Samsung8000-55LED,Pioneer SC35, Pioneer DV-79AVi, Sunfire TGA7201, LSi25, LCi RTSc, LC80i
    2chnl system:Melody 101 tube pre, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, W4S Dac, MG Audio Planus2 speaker cables
    Office rig: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures

  19. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZLTFUL View Post
    Sort of a side note, Ray, was Boulder ever a consideration? Just curious because I have yet to put my ears on anything of theirs I didn't like. Now...granted...the 3050 might be overkill at 2000w@4ohms...and 355lbs each but my god are they amazing. Hehe.
    No. But I do like reading about Boulder products...especially the prices.
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
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  20. #50

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    Wow Ray,
    That is some serious stuff.. Contrats man. Would be nice if you can do a review after having them and listening them. Just curious what kind of speakers do you have?

  21. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by jumpindick View Post
    Just curious what kind of speakers do you have?

    Sorry but I had to LOL!!
    Hot Rodded SDA 1.2TL's, SDA 1C's, SDA CRS+'s...
    Powered By Wyred 4 Sound, STP-SE, SX-1000...
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  22. #52

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    Very Nice

    Speakers
    Carver Amazing Fronts
    CS400i Center
    RT800i's Rears
    Sub Paradigm Servo 15

    Electronics
    Conrad Johnson PV-5 pre-amp
    Parasound Halo A23
    Pioneer 84TXSi AVR
    Pioneer 79Avi DVD
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    WMC Win7 32bit HD DVR



  23. #53

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    Beautiful.

    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    Which Class A designs are you speaking of that double down? Certainly single ended Class A doesn't double down and many of the Class A First Watt amps and have less power at 4 ohms. What is a "true" Class A design?

    H9
    That "true" Class A is a loaded question. Who really decides? I do know, however, that the F5 doubles as impedance halves. Down to 2 ohms, IIRC from the manual.
    Wris****ch--->Crisco

  24. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by jumpindick View Post
    Would be nice if you can do a review after having them and listening them.
    I certainly will do a review.

    Quote Originally Posted by jumpindick View Post
    Just curious what kind of speakers do you have?
    A heavily modified pair of SDA SRS 1.2TL's. If you are curious about what kind of modifications, here are a few threads:

    Improvements-To-Modified-SDA-SRS-1.2TL-Crossover

    SDA-SRS-1.2TL-Sonicap-Upgrade

    The-AI-1-Dreadnought-Project-Pt.1

    Steel-Retaining-Rings-For-SDA-Drivers-And-Passive-Radiators

    SDA-Tweeter-Brackets-for-SDA-SRS-1.2TL-SDA-SRS-and-SDA-CRS

    Upgrade-Low-Frequency-Inductors-For-the-SDA-SRS-1.2TL

    Upgrade-High-Frequency-Inductors-For-The-SDA-SRS-1.2TL

    Duelund-Resistor-Upgrade-For-The-SDA-SRS-1.2TL

    Sonic-Barrier-Damping-Material-For-SDA-SRS-1.2TL-Crossover

    SDA-SRS-1.2TL-Custom-Wood-Panels

    In the future, when I am more dedicated to audio than I am now, I will invest in a real, big deal, audiophile-approved pair of loudspeakers...like these exquisite Dynaudio Evidence Temptations; sonic bliss at a mere $44,000 (less than half that used):

    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
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  25. #55

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    DK,

    Did Accuphase or Luxman pass through your laboratory?

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    Whoa! Serious hardware, Raife.

    Congrats and looking forward to the review and comparison with the JC1's. I've never had my ears on Pass gear so I'll wait on your impressions with bated breath.
    "Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills, polyswitches removed, Lg Solen inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR binding posts, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheets (3" strips) installed on back wall behind MW's & Tweeters, interior of cabinets sealed, AI-1 interface with 1000VA transformer

  27. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by D_M View Post
    Did Accuphase or Luxman pass through your laboratory?
    No. The short list of amps under serious consideration (and their output into 8 ohms) was:


    1. Pass Labs X600.5 monoblocks (600 wpc)
    2. 28BSST2 monoblocks (1000 wpc)
    3. PS Audio Classic 250 bridged monoblocks (1000 wpc)
    4. Krell FPB 750 MCx monoblocks (750 wpc)
    5. Classe Omega monoblocks (500 wpc)
    6. Musical Fidelity KW monoblocks (1000 wpc)
    7. Vacuum Tube Logic MB750 monoblocks (750 wpc)

    In the end, it came down to a choice between the X600.5 and the 28BSST2.

    My main selection criteria were:

    1. Stereophonic design philosophy.
    2. Output power, particularly performance with low impedance speakers.
    3. Mechanical and electrical noise abatement design.
    4. Reliability.
    5. Company reputation.
    6. Access to product information.

    With regard to product information, Pass Labs was the only company that I could directly communicate, by phone and email, with the actual designers of the product. Over the years, Nelson Pass (power amp design), Wayne Colburn (preamp design) and Desmond Harrington (mechanical design) have always provided prompt answers to my technical inquiries.
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
    __________________
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    Congrats Raife! I'll bet those mono blocks sound terrific!

    Good luck with your new amps!
    Carl

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    No. But I do like reading about Boulder products...especially the prices.
    True...hehe the 850s run used about what your short list options run new. But my god are they butter smooth. Hehe.

    Still hoping for that rich uncle payout or lottery win so that I can build a system around a pair of the new 3060s. They are only 100lbs heavier than the 3050s...

    I love that they use engine stands to work on them/move them around the shop...
    Last edited by ZLTFUL; 04-08-2013 at 09:17 AM.
    "Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip
    I may have an addiction... RTA-15TL, SDA 2, LSi25, LSi15, LSi9, LSi7, LSiCx2, LSiFX, LS/FX, RT/FX, DSW MP2000...and that's just the Polks...

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    Man, that's some heavy metal
    "Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills, polyswitches removed, Lg Solen inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR binding posts, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheets (3" strips) installed on back wall behind MW's & Tweeters, interior of cabinets sealed, AI-1 interface with 1000VA transformer

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