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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Bubbles View Post
    I may be one of the few , But I disagree with the first part of this statement. I do believe the stock 2A's/ B's sound better than the 1C's. But also as described in the rest of the post; being able to TL the 2B's makes them that much better still. However I also am under the belief that the RDO-198 is not too terribly different than the RDO-194 from and audible standpoint. Slightly better, but IMO not by a huge margin. Mods or no mods I would go with the 2B's, the mods (as with all models) just make them even better.
    The 2As can be TL'd just like the 2Bs. I've compared the RDO-194s and RDO-198s on the same speaker, with updated crossovers. While not as dramatic as going from the SL2000 to the RDO-194, the difference is none-the-less very noticeable in a very good way.
    Much more detail and clarity to my ears.
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  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by headrott View Post
    IMO, if you can afford the Clarity Cap ESA's, you will enjoy the results more than the Sonicaps. I am absolutely not saying that the Sonicaps aren't good by any means, but the Clarity Cap ESA's are absolutely better as far as detail, imaging, and transparency.
    The ESAs do provide more apparent detail than the Sonicaps, but to my ears, it's too much, to the point of listening fatigue. I've done several upgrades for customers with the ESAs and Mundorf MOX resistors, but ended up tempering them a bit with Mills MRA-12 Resistors instead of the MOX. The Mills warm them up a bit. To each his own. Both are very fine Capacitors. As with everything, it depends on your own listening tastes.
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  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by westmassguy View Post
    The ESAs do provide more apparent detail than the Sonicaps, but to my ears, it's too much, to the point of listening fatigue. I've done several upgrades for customers with the ESAs and Mundorf MOX resistors, but ended up tempering them a bit with Mills MRA-12 Resistors instead of the MOX. The Mills warm them up a bit. To each his own. Both are very fine Capacitors. As with everything, it depends on your own listening tastes.
    I believe that the fatigue you get is due to the gear prior to your speakers (and Clarity cap ESA's). It has to do with the transparency of the Clarity Cap ESA's. If the sound you are sending from your source, DAC, pre-amp, and amp is not producing fatigue, then the speakers with Clarity Cap ESA's (and I am using Duelunds (also more transparent than Mills)) will not produce fatigue. I say this after changing amps 3 times (afer installing the Clarity Cap/Duelund combo in my 2.3TL's). That was my personal experience.
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:

    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."

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  4. #34

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    From what you guys are saying the Sonicaps and Mill would suit my gear best. I don't have, and probably will never be able to afford, the top of the line gear. If I understand correctly, replacing the Mills with MOX resistors would add a little more detail to the Sonicaps if I did get better gear. Is that correct?

    I really appreciate all the comments so far. Keep them coming. I have learned a lot from this thread.
    SDA 2BTL Sonicaps Mills resistors RDO-198s New gaskets H-nuts Erse inductors Crossover upgrades by westmassguy
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  5. #35

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    You should look to do your inductors as well. The 2B has drop-in replacements for the three inductors on the board available from Jantzen, and you can use a Solen to replace the 16mH inductor.
    Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance.

  6. #36

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    You should also get a set of boards from Tony.
    Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance.

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by headrott View Post
    I believe that the fatigue you get is due to the gear prior to your speakers (and Clarity cap ESA's). It has to do with the transparency of the Clarity Cap ESA's. If the sound you are sending from your source, DAC, pre-amp, and amp is not producing fatigue, then the speakers with Clarity Cap ESA's (and I am using Duelunds (also more transparent than Mills)) will not produce fatigue. I say this after changing amps 3 times (afer installing the Clarity Cap/Duelund combo in my 2.3TL's). That was my personal experience.
    Actually, I believe it's my ears. I can't here much above 14-15KHz, and I'm very sensitive to that upper region, which also made the SL2000s painful to listen to, due to their rather nasty spike at 12-13 KHz
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
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  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by westmassguy View Post
    Actually, I believe it's my ears. I can't here much above 14-15KHz, and I'm very sensitive to that upper region, which also made the SL2000s painful to listen to, due to their rather nasty spike at 12-13 KHz
    Ahh, gotcha. Man those SL2000's much have been really harsh sounding. They were to my ears and I don't have an oversensitivity to any frequency range.
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:

    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."

    "Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson

    "Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee

  9. #39

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    I have to go alone with H9, that the room size and amps used of course has alot to do with if you like the 2B's over the 1C's. I've had these speakers for a long time..and pushed them with the same amp.



    I was forced into having to play them in a smallish room. For a good amount of time. I was about to give up on them. The 2B's may have worked alot better in that size room...but thats a guess. When i finally got my downstairs finished..I moved everything down there. Now it's the same power amp, same feeds. The 1C's at that point turned into totally different speakers (except for the crappy sl2000..LOL) But even they didn't sound like total crap...(depending on what you played on it)



    The room size seems to be the "wild card" for the 1C's. Now weather the 2B's could do the same..not so sure.

  10. #40

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    If the 1Cs sound bad in a small room is it possible that the volume is too loud and the sound is bouncing around the room and messing up the timing that creates the SDA effect?

    I have a 20'x14'. As I turn the volume up there seems to be a point where the SDA effect starts to diminish instead of getting better. The CRS+ are worse about that happening than the 2Bs I have. I don't think it's a matter of distortion as much as it is me having a really "live" room. I also have 11-1/2' ceilings that might have a detrimental effect. I don't know much about room treatments, and if I did, I don't have much choice about rearranging furniture or doing much else in the living room/great room where the speakers are located. The warden here is in charge of that. :)
    SDA 2BTL Sonicaps Mills resistors RDO-198s New gaskets H-nuts Erse inductors Crossover upgrades by westmassguy
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  11. #41

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    IMO, if you can afford the Clarity Cap ESA's, you will enjoy the results more than the Sonicaps.
    Let me stick my 2 cents in here. The Clarity ESA 250V caps are actually cheaper than the 200V Sonicap's. Now, if you use the 630V Clarity caps, yeah they will cost more. However, there is no advantage to using the 630V version. In fact, there is a disadvantage in that they are MUCH larger making it harder to fit them on a board.

    I'll also mention that Clarity doesn't come in the exact values (5.6uF instead of 5.8uF) like Sonicap does. While the Clarity values are close and within tolerance, I'm anal and I want the exact value.
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

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  12. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by westmassguy View Post
    I've compared the RDO-194s and RDO-198s on the same speaker, with updated crossovers. While not as dramatic as going from the SL2000 to the RDO-194, the difference is none-the-less very noticeable in a very good way.
    Much more detail and clarity to my ears.
    That's it right there! I've done the exact same comparisons. It's not the room size or the gear driving the speakers, it is the tweeter.
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

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  13. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by naturallight View Post
    I have to go alone with H9, that the room size and amps used of course has alot to do with if you like the 2B's over the 1C's. I've had these speakers for a long time..and pushed them with the same amp.



    .
    I also agree that room size/ dimensions/ etc make a big difference on which model may sound best. However it is not always as simple as big speaker big room/ small speaker small room. I have tried my 2A's, SRS's, 1.2TL's and both pairs of my 1C's in rooms as small as 9x11, 12.5x16, and 26x16 and in all rooms the 2A's sounded better than the 1C's and the SRS and 1.2's sounded better than the 1C's. The big boys did naturally perform better in the larger room, but they also outperformed the 1C's even in the smaller two rooms as well. There are many things that come into play but personal preference is by far the most important. I currently run the 1.2's in the living room/ den and the SRS's in the bedroom switching them out for the 2A's on occasion. These occasions get fewer lately as the SRS are so heavy, but I also use that room more for auditioning new acquisitions than the living room.

  14. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    That's it right there! I've done the exact same comparisons. It's not the room size or the gear driving the speakers, it is the tweeter.
    Your on crack if you don't think room size and gear plays a part in illuminating the positives and negatives in each one, regardless of the tweeter. The RD0198-1 isn't that different from the RD0194-1. Which one is better is open to interpretation but it isn't like going from a Ford to a Ferrari which the the way you make it sound Jesse

    2BTL's in the wrong sized room with the wrong gear will sound worse than 1C's in a proper room with proper gear and RD0194-1's. That's all the point I was trying to make. There are A LOT of factors, the tweeter is one of several, and an intelligent person will look at the entire picture and analyze what they truly need and choose accordingly. Not just spout off about RD0198-1 for the win every time.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

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  15. #45

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    I would love to have a pair of 2.3TL's instead of my 1C's but my room would not do them justice and they probably would sound worse than my 1C's. In fact I could probably use 2B's since my room is smaller. I believe my room is the absolute minimum size to get the full, proper sound of the 1C's and even then I wonder in the back of my mind if smaller SDA's might even sound a tad better.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

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  16. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    I would love to have a pair of 2.3TL's instead of my 1C's but my room would not do them justice and they probably would sound worse than my 1C's. In fact I could probably use 2B's since my room is smaller. I believe my room is the absolute minimum size to get the full, proper sound of the 1C's and even then I wonder in the back of my mind if smaller SDA's might even sound a tad better.
    I must agree with you on this. I miss my 2.3's, but I never got to experience true SDA with my small living room. I hate to say it but, my 15TL's sound better in my living space.

  17. #47

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    You're taking my comment out of context. It was in response to westmassguy's post in which he states, "I've compared the RDO-194s and RDO-198s on the same speaker, with updated crossovers." The room and the gear are not part of that equation.
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  18. #48

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    Gotcha Jesse. I guess out of context happens a lot. It's the nature of a board like this sometimes.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

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  19. #49

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    I believe my room is the absolute minimum size to get the full, proper sound of the 1C's and even then I wonder in the back of my mind if smaller SDA's might even sound a tad better.
    Just curious what are the dimensions of your room?

    Dan

  20. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    I would love to have a pair of 2.3TL's instead of my 1C's but my room would not do them justice and they probably would sound worse than my 1C's. In fact I could probably use 2B's since my room is smaller. I believe my room is the absolute minimum size to get the full, proper sound of the 1C's and even then I wonder in the back of my mind if smaller SDA's might even sound a tad better.
    I know that you really like your 1Cs. Interesting that you think the 2Bs might sound better.
    SDA 2BTL Sonicaps Mills resistors RDO-198s New gaskets H-nuts Erse inductors Crossover upgrades by westmassguy
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  21. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    ... I'll also mention that Clarity doesn't come in the exact values (5.6uF instead of 5.8uF) like Sonicap does. While the Clarity values are close and within tolerance, I'm anal and I want the exact value.
    Are you saying you would stick with all Sonicaps for the TL upgrade or do you mean just for the 5.8uf and use Clairty for the others?
    SDA 2BTL Sonicaps Mills resistors RDO-198s New gaskets H-nuts Erse inductors Crossover upgrades by westmassguy
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  22. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    I would love to have a pair of 2.3TL's instead of my 1C's but my room would not do them justice and they probably would sound worse than my 1C's. In fact I could probably use 2B's since my room is smaller. I believe my room is the absolute minimum size to get the full, proper sound of the 1C's and even then I wonder in the back of my mind if smaller SDA's might even sound a tad better.
    I have a set of 1.2tl's, 1C's, and CRS+'s, all of which are hot rodded. I have owned a set of 2B's and 3.1tl's. I don't have the best room for my set up size wise. And I can tell you I wouldn't trade my 1.2tl's for anything. They do everything better. Room treatments are what put everything in place though.. The room can make or break SDA's but room treatments can fine tune your experience..

    I would own 2.3tl's over 1C's any day and every day after..
    No Way But The Hard Way, So Get Used To It!!!

  23. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by TennMan View Post
    I know that you really like your 1Cs. Interesting that you think the 2Bs might sound better.
    I think *maybe* they would integrate in my room better, especially at higher volumes. I could be all wrong however. I think I would miss something using the 2B's but the trade off having them in a smaller room vs the larger higher output 1C's might prove to be a positive.

    Room size is a small living room with and attached dining room 11.5' in depth and about 18' in length and a large open archway at one end to the dining room. Seated on the couch puts me a little less than 2' from the wall (the couch is on) and the 1C's sit 8" from the opposite wall, making the front plane of the speakers at about 20" from the wall. So I loose almost 3' of depth at the sitting position. It just seems at times at high volume the 1C's are overpowering the listening space.

    Again, I could be all wrong because it does sound good until you really crank it, then it seems to overwhelm the room a bit. At low, normal and even slightly elevated listening it sounds excellent!

    I just wonder if 2B's would be a tad less overpowering for the room.

    H9

    P.s. My old living room (before I moved 2 years ago) was about 14' in depth and about 26' in length.
    Last edited by heiney9; 04-09-2013 at 07:57 AM.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

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  24. #54

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    Interesting stuff guys. My 1C's had not been used for 2 years, as i was stuck in a small senior rental place while i looked for the right house. When i finally moved, the only room i could put the speakers in was a back bedroom, as the whole house needed repainting, wallpaper pulled down, and the basement needed to be completely redone. The room was about 12x12, had two big windows in it, and an old very thick rug with heavy padding under it. To say the 1C's sounded bad in that room would be an understatement. To be blunt my old set of large Advents sounded better.

    After 6 months of dealing with that, i was under the mistaken impression that the 1C's were pretty much shot, and time to look for other speakers. When i finished the basement, i moved the rack and equipment down there, but the 1C's were just put in a back room as i was trying out other speakers, and how i ended up with a set of RTi12's. The basement room by the way is 17x30. The only reason i put the 1C's back in play was, If they didn't sound like total crap, maybe i could sell them.



    To my complete surprise, the 1C's sounded like brand new speakers. The SDA "effect" was in full swing, they sounded open, airy, if you turned them up, they would fill the whole room with sound, and the bass would pound you. Now thats just MY experience, with the 1C's. Now would a set of 2B's worked better in that bedroom. I tend to doubt it, i don't think any SDA type speaker would have worked well at all. Would the 2B's sound as good as the 1C's in the new 17x30 room...again, don't know, but would be interesting to try out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TennMan View Post
    Are you saying you would stick with all Sonicaps for the TL upgrade
    I would.
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    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    I would.
    You don't have Clarity Caps in yours??
    No Way But The Hard Way, So Get Used To It!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toolfan66 View Post
    You don't have Clarity Caps in yours??
    Nope, not going to either.
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    Just a note on the room size VS what the 1C's can do. Now again, i had not heard the 1C's for 2 years, when i put them in that bedroom. Now if you played them really low...they were maybe passable. But if you turned them up...it was like they sucked the air out of the room. For lack of better terms. The bass was not there, the SDA "effect" was min at best, nothing at all sounded good, plus you were treated to a double dose of bad, as they still had the SL2000 in them and you were sitting no more then 6+ feet away from them.



    Now when they were played in the 17x30 room..set up in my usual way of 1 foot off the back wall and 1.5 off the sidewall. The difference in the rooms...is beyond massive to the point of...WHAT THE F.... Everything about the speakers changed. They were open, airy the sound stage was massive, the SDA "effect" was all over, but the volume..if you turned this up to close to 11 o'clock, with a newer recorded CD..the volume is massive, more then most people would want, and you get chest pounding bass. Now the equipment has not changed ..only the room.

    Plus i also sit 15 feet back in this room....so the SL2000 are not beating me to death...they will get changed out, but it's not like there total trash (depending on what cd your playing..LOL)



    Now again..thats just MY experience with the 1C's and room size...and only my ear.

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    Will unmodified 2B's sound better then unmodified 1C's in a large room..or my 17X30 foot room?

    Now i hate to jump on the boat of..bigger speakers, bigger room= winners.

    But in this case...since the 2B's are lacking so many drivers as compared to the 1C's...I pretty much have to go along with that.



    I sit 15 feet back in the room. The 1C's will kick you with bass sitting that far back, in the chest..no problem...and if you push the volume to 11 o'clock on the pre, will be way more then most people want to hear, and the room is filled with SDA sound.

    Can the 2B's do that..in that size room....I just don't see it, since there lacking 6 speakers compared to the 1C's.

    Now i may be wrong on this and since i don't have a set of 2B's...have no way to test this. But i'm not really buying the fact the 2B's sound better then the 1C's. (unmodified)..IN that size room....
    Last edited by naturallight; 04-09-2013 at 03:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by naturallight View Post
    Will unmodified 2B's sound better then unmodified 1C's in a large room..or my 17X30 foot room?

    Now i hate to jump on the boat of..bigger speakers, bigger room= winners.

    But in this case...since the 2B's are lacking so many drivers as compared to the 1C's...I pretty much have to go along with that.



    I sit 15 feet back in the room. The 1C's will kick you with bass sitting that far back, in the chest..no problem...and if you push the volume to 11 o'clock on the pre, will be way more then most people want to hear, and the room is filled with SDA sound.

    Can the 2B's do that..in that size room....I just don't see it, since there lacking 6 speakers compared to the 1C's.

    Now i may be wrong on this and since i don't have a set of 2B's...have no way to test this. But i'm not really buying the fact the 2B's sound better then the 1C's. (unmodified)
    From my experiences The 2B's sound better period. Many others here will disagree with me but i am unsure how many of those have actually done an A/B comparison. I have done so and with both on equal footing the 2A's/B's sounded better to me in all rooms I tried them in, small or large.

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