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  1. #31

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    There certainly is a lot of fanboyism and incredulity at work with some of these brands.

  2. #32

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    Cast your net wide when it comes to research. While I haven't read all the audio enthusiast forums out there they seem to be at odds with the experience with Emotiva here. Especially in the two channel department.

    Use Emotiva's 30 day return window. See if local dealers have the ability to loan you what ever brands they carry in the price range you are considering.

    I went used and it didn't work out. Basically ended up with a boat anchor. I picked up a new 2 channel amp for less than $400 with warranty. This was based on a lot of positive feedback (and I couldn't find any negative feedback) and I purchased from a place that I could make a hassle free return to.
    So hot it burns twice

  3. #33

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    I have bought nothing but used over the past 10-12 years and with the exception of a couple shipping incidents..............I have zero issues. That's a lot of used gear and not a single issue. I do feel for people that have an issue here or there, but if you do your research on both the gear and the seller it helps navigate the used market very successfully. Don't cop out of buying better sounding used gear simply for a warranty on the new gear. It's not a valid argument, IMO.

    Also be aware of the audience you are using to get your "rave" reviews and not a single negative review. Doesn't sound normal, as Phil said all gear has it's detractors and to see HBM post he hasn't seen a single negative review means he's looking with blinders on, or not revealing the entire truth.

    H9
    Last edited by heiney9; 05-13-2013 at 11:25 PM.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

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  4. #34

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    To the OP, whatever direction you go just make sure you are well informed and keep an open mind.

    I am out of this one at this point in time.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

  5. #35

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    The only piece of gear I bought new over the last few years failed a few months later. The oldest piece I own is 20 years old, bought it used, and it's been completely trouble free. Never buy something just because it has a warranty.
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

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  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    Don't cop out of buying better sounding used gear simply for a warranty on the new gear. It's not a valid argument, IMO.
    Now I haven't heard every amp from every competent design house out there. With that said given my speakers, given my budget at the time, what makes anyone think I have traded sound quality off for warranty? The only way one could really say that is to listen to my setup with various flavor of amps.

    I didn't realize I was making any argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    Also be aware of the audience you are using to get your "rave" reviews and not a single negative review.

    H9
    All I know is:

    1. I couldn't find any harsh reviews of my amp. Doesn't mean it isn't out there. Just after a good amount of searching I couldn't find it.

    2. I agree everyone should be aware of who is giving the review. That is a sword that cuts both ways however. WmAx is one of many that really liked the Yamaha PS2500. I think his demonstrated knowledge is without question and I took that with others input and with an in home, no risk evaluation, I kept the amp.

    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    Doesn't sound normal, as Phil said all gear has it's detractors and to see HBM post he hasn't seen a single negative review means he's looking with blinders on, or not revealing the entire truth.
    If blinders mean that when I hit: Gearslutz, AH, AVS, Techtalk, Hometheatershack and three/four other sites before pulling the trigger then I guess I have blinders on.
    So hot it burns twice

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    The only piece of gear I bought new over the last few years failed a few months later. The oldest piece I own is 20 years old, bought it used, and it's been completely trouble free. Never buy something just because it has a warranty.
    This has been my philosophy as well, including with cars. I have only had one bad piece, and knew that going in. It is still in the shop, but for an initial investment of 70 bucks plus another 100.00, I will have a 500.00 preamp.

    I bought 4 used Jags and collectively the spent less than a week in the shop, and I was out of pocket 1800 for non routine maintenance.

    Bottom line is be educated, and be smart. If it sounds too good to be true, it is. And that goes for new 349.00 amps with a month-long trial period, 5 year warranty and a no-hassle return policy as well.
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  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Habanero Monk View Post

    All I know is:

    1. I couldn't find any harsh reviews of my amp. Doesn't mean it isn't out there. Just after a good amount of searching I couldn't find it.

    2. I agree everyone should be aware of who is giving the review. That is a sword that cuts both ways however. WmAx is one of many that really liked the Yamaha PS2500. I think his demonstrated knowledge is without question and I took that with others input and with an in home, no risk evaluation, I kept the amp.


    Emo has a very strong track record of having anything negative said scrubbed from the web. They also have a "KISS" sized army of devoted fans that descend like locusts onto any negative word said anywhere on the web. They report those negative comments as brand-bashing and harass mods to remove them. They attack sites like CP in concert with others, and have made several attempts at creating so much crap here that Polk abandons the site... ALL of what I said has been observed by long standing members here that also belong to other boards.

    As I said in my post, for me it isn't about the gear, its about the owners that believe their gear is all there is, was and ever should be. Kind of reminds me of what I call the "Bloomberg Complex".
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Monoblocks, Polk Audio "Signature" Reference Series 1.2TL with complete mods, Polk audio AB700/800 "in-wall" surrounds, Dodd Audio MLP, Pioneer Elite SC-65, Peachtree I-DAC, Oppo BDP-93, Yamaha PX-3 Turntable, with Sumiko BPS EVOIII, Pioneer PDD 9MkII SACD Player, SimAudio moon 110lp phono preamplifier

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  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post
    Emo has a very strong track record of having anything negative said scrubbed from the web.
    THAT really requires some substantiation on your part. With the nature of user forums I don't believe that for a second. I personally wouldn't purchase an Emotiva sub or pre-pro based on the negative feedback out there on the various forums.

    If Emotiva really scrubbed that stuff I wouldn't have read it. Eh?
    So hot it burns twice

  10. #40

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    Emo has a very strong track record of having anything negative said scrubbed from the web.
    John didn't word that quite right. They scrub it from their site.
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

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  11. #41

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    Don't you find it odd that a search for negative comments always takes you to something positive instead? They have to be using a web-app or service that does this every time someone looks for bad information,. I know several people that have had problems, including one that shorted out and smoked when it was plugged into the wall the first time.

    It is not that hard to filter results in favor of a desired outcome. If I were an internet company the size of Emotiva, you bet your A$$ I would spend the coin needed to protect my brand.

    This is not to bash them... I have said before that I do believe they build a sound product for it's pricepoint, it's just not for me.
    Last edited by nooshinjohn; 05-14-2013 at 12:12 AM.
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  12. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    John didn't word that quite right. They scrub it from their site.
    Thanks Jesse...

    I joined their forum after Carver Tubes were picked up by Emotiva, and was banned without ever saying a single bad word about the brand there. Believe me when I say they protect their brand like a fight of Bald Eagles protect their young.
    Last edited by nooshinjohn; 05-14-2013 at 12:21 AM.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Monoblocks, Polk Audio "Signature" Reference Series 1.2TL with complete mods, Polk audio AB700/800 "in-wall" surrounds, Dodd Audio MLP, Pioneer Elite SC-65, Peachtree I-DAC, Oppo BDP-93, Yamaha PX-3 Turntable, with Sumiko BPS EVOIII, Pioneer PDD 9MkII SACD Player, SimAudio moon 110lp phono preamplifier

    "The problems we face today exist because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living." Brad Shurett

  13. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post
    I have only had one bad piece, and knew that going in. It is still in the shop, but for an initial investment of 70 bucks plus another 100.00, I will have a 500.00 preamp.
    So you are getting the C-4000 repaired hehehe... good call.
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  14. #44

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    And your point is what exactly?
    Was your repair on your new item covered by a Warranty more than likely yes, while your old item is paid for out of pocket if something goes wrong.
    You only told the negative side of your story.
    Would you buy a car with no warrany or a $7000 amp?


    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    The only piece of gear I bought new over the last few years failed a few months later. The oldest piece I own is 20 years old, bought it used, and it's been completely trouble free. Never buy something just because it has a warranty.
    Last edited by Jhayman; 05-14-2013 at 08:18 AM.

  15. #45

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    I don't know what part of the Emo forums you read but a quick look on there reveals many people complaining about something or another, just like here..
    Quote Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post
    Emo has a very strong track record of having anything negative said scrubbed from the web. They also have a "KISS" sized army of devoted fans that descend like locusts onto any negative word said anywhere on the web. They report those negative comments as brand-bashing and harass mods to remove them. They attack sites like CP in concert with others, and have made several attempts at creating so much crap here that Polk abandons the site... ALL of what I said has been observed by long standing members here that also belong to other boards.

    As I said in my post, for me it isn't about the gear, its about the owners that believe their gear is all there is, was and ever should be. Kind of reminds me of what I call the "Bloomberg Complex".
    Last edited by Jhayman; 05-14-2013 at 08:22 AM.

  16. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    John didn't word that quite right. They scrub it from their site.
    He was crystal clear in his assertion.
    Last edited by Habanero Monk; 05-14-2013 at 09:39 AM.
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  17. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post
    Don't you find it odd that a search for negative comments always takes you to something positive instead? They have to be using a web-app or service that does this every time someone looks for bad information,. I know several people that have had problems, including one that shorted out and smoked when it was plugged into the wall the first time.

    It is not that hard to filter results in favor of a desired outcome. If I were an internet company the size of Emotiva, you bet your A$$ I would spend the coin needed to protect my brand.

    This is not to bash them... I have said before that I do believe they build a sound product for it's pricepoint, it's just not for me.
    For myself I went to various forums and performed a search in their query agent. I'm not buying that they could go in and skew google/bing-yahoo etc search results btw.

    http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Emotiva+sucks
    So hot it burns twice

  18. #48

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    Actually it is quite easy to skew Google searches.

    Take for example the search "Ducati Monster Forum".
    The first 2 results are for the original Ducati Monster List.
    In 2007, this forum was sold to a company called Vertical Scope. There was a mass membership exodus because they were requiring you to pay a subscription fee annually to get rid of TONS of ads on the site and within member forum posts.
    Enter the Ducati Monster Forum (item 3 on that search list).
    Several former members of the original forum created their own forum.
    Since then, 95% of the membership moved over to the new forum.
    There is a 2000% greater post count in that time and a 1500% increase in traffic over the old forum.
    And yet the first 2 searches based on "popularity" come up with a forum that gets MAYBE 100 posts to it in a given day.
    While the forum that gets thousands of posts per day is still ranked 3rd.

    The way this was done was to create bot accounts that constantly "ping" the site. Each ping shows up as a traffic hit and gives the former site a greater volume of supposed traffic.
    And yet simply looking at the new post count shows that there is hardly any real traffic to the old site.

    This same company, Vertical Scope, has done this to many boards that they have purchased. I would be happy to discuss the technical aspects of it via PMs but it is as simple as Googling "how to make your site show up first on google".
    And it isn't all that hard to fathom a company whose business is solely internet based using similar strategies to increase traffic/presence.
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  19. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZLTFUL View Post
    Actually it is quite easy to skew Google searches.

    Take for example the search "Ducati Monster Forum".
    The first 2 results are for the original Ducati Monster List.
    In 2007, this forum was sold to a company called Vertical Scope. There was a mass membership exodus because they were requiring you to pay a subscription fee annually to get rid of TONS of ads on the site and within member forum posts.
    Enter the Ducati Monster Forum (item 3 on that search list).
    Several former members of the original forum created their own forum.
    Since then, 95% of the membership moved over to the new forum.
    There is a 2000% greater post count in that time and a 1500% increase in traffic over the old forum.
    And yet the first 2 searches based on "popularity" come up with a forum that gets MAYBE 100 posts to it in a given day.
    While the forum that gets thousands of posts per day is still ranked 3rd.

    The way this was done was to create bot accounts that constantly "ping" the site. Each ping shows up as a traffic hit and gives the former site a greater volume of supposed traffic.
    And yet simply looking at the new post count shows that there is hardly any real traffic to the old site.

    This same company, Vertical Scope, has done this to many boards that they have purchased. I would be happy to discuss the technical aspects of it via PMs but it is as simple as Googling "how to make your site show up first on google".
    And it isn't all that hard to fathom a company whose business is solely internet based using similar strategies to increase traffic/presence.
    You missed the point. It was asserted that EMOTIVA was making this sort of thing happen. Your example is dealing with 3rd parties. What didn't you get about that? Sorry but man, missing the forest for the trees.

    Again: Anyone that want can hit specific sites (enthusiast forums) from Beer Brewing, to K5 Blazer/Bronco forums, to BBQ, to Gardening, to glass bead making, to whatever and search using those forums query agents.

    I IT at a 172 workstation non-profit and co-created their main website and ancillary service sites. I'm quite familiar optimizing the site to return good Google results with out getting into ad-words etc.

    Emotiva could no more go and alter our search appliance than they could here. But this is all digression from my main point: You can do your own due diligence. I did it with my Yamaha and couldn't find any overly negative reviews for my application. I did read people complaining about sub 20Hz duty however. But that really doesn't apply to my situation.
    So hot it burns twice

  20. #50

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    No. My argument was decidely NOT dealing with third parties. The OWNER of the website made their website appear to be garnering more traffic than it actually was through the use of ping bots.
    You are missing the point entirely. Emotiva can easily do the same type of thing with their own forums to make heavily favorable reviews in their forums or on their websites. In fact, 3 of the top 5 items returned in a Google search for "emotiva reviews" are Emotiva's own website.
    If I had the time today, I could create a simple website and hammer it with hits and have it show up in the top 10 of a Google search within a few days. It isn't rocket science and it is one of the primary reasons sites get blacklisted by Google, Bing, etc every day.
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  21. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post
    Emo has a very strong track record of having anything negative said scrubbed from the web
    Quote Originally Posted by ZLTFUL View Post
    No. My argument was decidely NOT dealing with third parties. The OWNER of the website made their website appear to be garnering more traffic than it actually was through the use of ping bots.
    For Pete's sake: Does Ducatti OWN 'Ducatti Monster Forum'? Does Ducatti OWN Vertical scope. They don't and they aren't 'scrubbing anything' from the 'web' et al.

    Are you really that surprised that when you Google for say 'Polk LSiM 703 review 'that www.polkaudio.com shows up in the top 5?

    If you want to see other results just scroll down.
    Last edited by Habanero Monk; 05-14-2013 at 10:55 AM.
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  22. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZLTFUL View Post
    If I had the time today, I could create a simple website and hammer it with hits and have it show up in the top 10 of a Google search within a few days. It isn't rocket science and it is one of the primary reasons sites get blacklisted by Google, Bing, etc every day.
    I could setup a wordpress site with appropriate plug-ins and hand coded HTML entries also. But just like you pointed out: site would get black listed, thus not showing up in any search results, thus the lack of ability to truly skew natural search results.
    So hot it burns twice

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    You know what, having any kind of discussion with you is like talking to a tree stump. You have no idea what you are talking about and live in some delusional fantasy world where everything on the internet is true. That's why you have such an active following of detractors. I notice a lot of what you say being questioned by a large number of members of this community. Speaks to the validity of your delusions, huh?
    "Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip
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    And away we go...

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    Quote Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post
    Thanks Jesse...

    I joined their forum after Carver Tubes were picked up by Emotiva, and was banned without ever saying a single bad word about the brand there. Believe me when I say they protect their brand like a fight of Bald Eagles protect their young.
    I find it very hard to believe you got banned. You were questioned about your bashing of Emotiva and how you have treated members here on this forum. Did they let you delete your posts before you got banned? Trust me, people have posted much worse than you did for months on end and have not gotten banned. And they do not protect their brand as you posted, just rude and insulting posts, neither of which were in your 10 posts on the Emotiva forum. But I guess it sounds better when you post that you got banned and they protected their brand by banning you
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    Wow....just wow....

    I've never understood why Emotiva gear gets people riled up so much. There are LOTS of brands out there that people disagree on, and can do so without issue, not sure why this can't be the case with Emotiva. I mean villock is basically calling John a liar above, there's just no need for that...

    I'm personally not a fan of Emotiva gear for music, but then there are other brands I don't like all that much either. Why can I say that I don't like Adcom amps and that I think there is better gear out there for the same money and be fine, but I say literally the same thing about Emotiva and it turns into an argument.

    I just don't understand.
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  27. #57

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    No I am not calling him a liar. He may have been banned, I have no knowledge of that. I just find it hard to believe. I do have issue with how John portrays his short time at the Emotiva lounge. He was treated very well by most over there, with a few very pissed off people posting of their experienc with him over here. I do not want to get into a back and forth with John, just can't see how he could have gottened banned. If I am wrong, I will delete my post and apologize
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    Quote Originally Posted by villock View Post
    I find it very hard to believe you got banned. You were questioned about your bashing of Emotiva and how you have treated members here on this forum. Did they let you delete your posts before you got banned? Trust me, people have posted much worse than you did for months on end and have not gotten banned. And they do not protect their brand as you posted, just rude and insulting posts, neither of which were in your 10 posts on the Emotiva forum. But I guess it sounds better when you post that you got banned and they protected their brand by banning you
    I know for a fact he got banned, none of his posts got deleted, what you see is what he had posted when he was banned. No deleted posts or edited posts. There are folks that simply didnt like him there, assumed he was going to start trouble and they banned him based on those assumptions.

    The Emotiva forum houses some former members banned from here for various reasons and I wont speculate as to if any of them had anything to do with his banning.
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  29. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by AsSiMiLaTeD View Post
    Why can I say that I don't like Adcom amps and that I think there is better gear out there for the same money and be fine, but I say literally the same thing about Emotiva and it turns into an argument.

    I just don't understand.
    When you figure that out, you shall be the chosen one... When I got my XPA-3, I didn't even want to mention it here for fear of exactly what happened - my thread getting locked over pointless bickering. I don't get it either. I've never been moved by any piece of gear to actively seek out threads it is mentioned in to talk smack, but it happens here without fail.
    Equipment list:
    Onkyo TX-NR3010 9.2 AVR
    Emotiva XPA-3 amp
    Polk RTi70 mains, CSi40 center, RTi38 surrounds, RTi28 rears and heights
    SVS 20-39CS+ subwoofer powered by Crown XLS1500
    Oppo BDP-93 Blu-ray player
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    Epson 8500UB 1080p projector
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  30. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZLTFUL View Post
    You know what, having any kind of discussion with you is like talking to a tree stump. You have no idea what you are talking about and live in some delusional fantasy world where everything on the internet is true. That's why you have such an active following of detractors. I notice a lot of what you say being questioned by a large number of members of this community. Speaks to the validity of your delusions, huh?
    Funny supposition. Excepting that I actually proved my point in response to John. Emotiva is not 'scrubbing the web' of negative reviews.

    You're one of those guys that simply can't get the point being clearly made.
    So hot it burns twice

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