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  1. #1

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    Default Question for the mega minds.....

    What cancels the inter aural cross talk in live sound? Surely the instruments sound is being heard in both ears at different times. What is the phenomena and how does it work in relation to the live performance being separated naturally and needing to be compensated for with reproduction. If the answer is big sound in a tiny room then I get it but do try to be more technical if possible.
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    You might read some of David Griesinger many papers on the subject:

    http://www.davidgriesinger.com/

    or maybe JJ Johnston's

    blog:
    http://audioskeptic.blogspot.com/201...ar-part-1.html

    PowerPoints:
    http://www.aes.org/sections/pnw/ppt.htm

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    Speed skater,

    Thanks for your reply.

    The majority of the links you provided are related to the anatomy of the ear, the audience perception of tonal qualities in a multitude of rooms and the ability to -tune- out of tune to make the sound more pleasant to the audience as affected by the size and shape of the hall. The compensation of the time alignment before it gets to the ear is what I am investigating. Once the sound is in the ear thare is no longer the ability to modify it's delivery.

    What is your take on the time differences noted in Scotts review and how do you equate its relevance to the inter aural cross talk?
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    Default

    Scotts review ???

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    Reflections and multiple speakers and radiation points of a large auditorium, theater or arena. Although most arena sound stinks as far as instrument location, separation, tone, timbre, etc.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedskater View Post
    Scotts review ???
    Did you not reads your own links? Scott Meherns. The PP about the cellular phone. I am interested in the relevance to the op as you see it.
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    That's what I am trying to figure out Brock. It seems to me if the IA compensation is set by how far apart the speakers are then it stands to reason if they are farther apart than an intimate jazz setting, for example, it could possibly create issues of spacial effect and could magnified the sound stage beyond its desired result. I know the reflections are atrocious in a hall or auditorium but what about beyond the extreme with respect to the reproduced dimension. Could the SDA effect actually take it too far?

    I base this on the fact that I do not really care for SDA for near field and much prefer the 5jr+ for that duty. The SDA in close proximity seem to get cloudy, especially for heavy separation like the left right sweeps in many of the Cars offerings. It seems, once you get close enough, the inter aural timing is exacerbated by the extreme angle of attack for the dimensional driver and causes issues with the effect itself.
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    Live sound does not have two point sources.

    Tom
    In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

    "The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction". - Kenneth Swauger

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    Quote Originally Posted by SDA1C View Post
    I base this on the fact that I do not really care for SDA for near field and much prefer the 5jr+ for that duty. The SDA in close proximity seem to get cloudy, especially for heavy separation like the left right sweeps in many of the Cars offerings. It seems, once you get close enough, the inter aural timing is exacerbated by the extreme angle of attack for the dimensional driver and causes issues with the effect itself.
    I disagree. I think there is very good sweeping from one channel to the other in SDA's. It may depend on the rest of your equipment, however. I think there is very good imaging and soundstage properties from SDA's; particularly after fully moddifying them. It may be a combination of set up issues and gear issues that make your SDA soundstage sound muddy. MY SDA's definately don't have that problem.
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:

    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."

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    Quote Originally Posted by headrott View Post
    I disagree. I think there is very good sweeping from one channel to the other in SDA's. It may depend on the rest of your equipment, however. I think there is very good imaging and soundstage properties from SDA's; particularly after fully moddifying them. It may be a combination of set up issues and gear issues that make your SDA soundstage sound muddy. MY SDA's definately don't have that problem.
    HR, he did state "near field". I find that only coaxial or dual concentric speakers are able to image and throw a soundstage near field.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche

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    Quote Originally Posted by Face View Post
    HR, he did state "near field". I find that only coaxial or dual concentric speakers are able to image and throw a soundstage near field.
    I guess if "near field" listening is defined as less than the width of the SDA tweeters, then yes, it makes sense that the soundstage would be cloudy, narrow and not good. However, SDA's were never designed to be used this way, so I would say that that's the problem right there. Thanks for pointing that out though Face.
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:

    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."

    "Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson

    "Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by treitz3 View Post
    Live sound does not have two point sources.

    Tom
    Bingo!
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

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  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by treitz3 View Post
    Live sound does not have two point sources.

    Tom
    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    Bingo!
    Which is why a surround sound system has the potential to best reproduce an actual musical experience.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFox View Post
    Which is why a surround sound system has the potential to best reproduce a cinematic experience.
    Fixed!
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    Quote Originally Posted by treitz3 View Post
    Live sound does not have two point sources.

    Tom
    Interesting. I see what you are getting at. Is that to say that live sound has multiple point sources or just one very wide one?
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    Quote Originally Posted by headrott View Post
    I disagree. I think there is very good sweeping from one channel to the other in SDA's. It may depend on the rest of your equipment, however. I think there is very good imaging and soundstage properties from SDA's; particularly after fully moddifying them. It may be a combination of set up issues and gear issues that make your SDA soundstage sound muddy. MY SDA's definately don't have that problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Face View Post
    HR, he did state "near field". I find that only coaxial or dual concentric speakers are able to image and throw a soundstage near field.
    Yes indeed, Face, thanks for the clari. I only prefer the 5jr+ over the SDA for near field. Anything farther than about 6 feet (My SDA are 11 feet apart) and the SDA's win hands down.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SDA1C View Post
    Did you not reads your own links? Scott Meherns. The PP about the cellular phone. I am interested in the relevance to the op as you see it.
    No, my link was to "JJ Johnston's" papers. 'Scott Meherns' just happened to be on the same page.

  18. #18

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    (My SDA are 11 feet apart)
    That's too far apart, 6 to 8 feet is recommended.
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

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  19. #19

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    My SRT's were about 7.5-8 ft. apart and that seemed to be what they liked in a large 26 by 24 room. About 2 ft from the back wall and a good 3 ft from any side wall. Set up, the room, associated gear, all play their part as we all know. If your music isn't up to snuff, look at the speakers last is what I say.

  20. #20

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    Thanks for the heads up F1. (After I maesured and not guessing...)They are 10ft 1 inch center to center, 3ft 6in from the side walls equally and 23ft in to my listening ear. They are 2ft 3in from the wall to the face of the cabinet. They sound SUPURB! I am not missing anything in fact I am still picking up different background activities on the Use Your Illusion albums that I never knew were there. i.e. The pistol cocking and the bottle caps hitting the floor. I have no problems what so ever with the performance. I was asking the question from a technical point of view as to whether the effect is compensating for one point source or multiple sources. That is of "one band one sound" or many instrument sources being replicated by just two speakers. As soon as I find my matching set of speaker wires I will bi amp and not look back. Until I find another 425sig that is. I am really digging the 3.2 set up for movies. The explosions are epic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedskater View Post
    No, my link was to "JJ Johnston's" papers. 'Scott Meherns' just happened to be on the same page.
    LOL Kinda wondered about the compilation as it were... What part specifically should I be noting in JJs work that relates to IA cross talk? His perception of an use of double blind has been argued until blue in the face. I am not sure that relates to the design of SDA or the time alignment properties associated with band size vs. speaker separation.
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  22. #22

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    You might note that the original question was:

    What cancels the inter aural cross talk in live sound?

    Also note that 'SDA' only appeared later in post #7.

    Both 'David Griesinger' and 'JJ Johnston' are scientists that write about live sound and human hearing.

    Let me add 'Siegfried Linkwitz' to the list of scientists. He has page & pages of information and more pages of links.

    http://www.linkwitzlab.com/index.html

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    You are correct. I was continuing a conversation, from another discussion, with other forum members about SDA. My apologies for not making the question more clear. I also made an assumption, based on location of post, and the fact that the way ears work is rather well known and need not be discussed on an elementary level, that the general audience of most of my posts are SDA enthusiasts and could have put the question into perspective based on that knowledge.

    In light of the clarified intent of my topic, do you still feel the links are relevant?
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    Sort of as an aside, but wasn't SDA developed to assist in cancelling out inter-aural crosstalk? Thusly making the topics an extension of and compliment to each other?
    "Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    Reflections and multiple speakers and radiation points of a large auditorium, theater or arena. Although most arena sound stinks as far as instrument location, separation, tone, timbre, etc.
    Agreed. I do not prefer the sound of most amplified, live music.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    Reflections and multiple speakers and radiation points of a large auditorium, theater or arena. Although most arena sound stinks as far as instrument location, separation, tone, timbre, etc.
    Definitely. If you want to test this theory, record your next concert on a cell phone...the sound is outstanding in its horribleness.
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    The way I see it, every instrument at a live acoustic performance is acting like a point source. There IS no inter-aural crosstalk. That doesn't happen with a pair, or four or five speakers in a living room.

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    Quote Originally Posted by George Grand View Post
    The way I see it, every instrument at a live acoustic performance is acting like a point source. There IS no inter-aural crosstalk. That doesn't happen with a pair, or four or five speakers in a living room.
    George,

    This is where I am getting the disconnect in theory. If it is an acoustic presentation than I would certainly agree and i believe that would be one giant piunt source. If it is an amplified concert and the Mixmaster B is involved, hehe, does that not reduce the single instrument sources to distinct and mixed point sources? I wonder how the sound would jumble if it were simply each instrument amplified to its own channel and the stack was in the same position as the instrument? It would seem the mixer eliminates the multiple point source theory, no?

    There was a wall of sound for The Dead shown here a few months back, would it be two point sources or just one big one or multiple sources all on the same plane? I do not see how the sound could be IA compensated if mixed. I also don't see how the sound could be balanced properly if each instrument were amplified separately with the instruments own channel. Seems like a one or the other sort of option.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZLTFUL View Post
    Sort of as an aside, but wasn't SDA developed to assist in cancelling out inter-aural crosstalk? Thusly making the topics an extension of and compliment to each other?
    In my view they are not related as once the ear gets the signal, regardless of timing, there is no longer any manipulation that can be done. All SDA effect must have taken place prior to the reception, the ear knows and/or reacts to nothing until stimulated. The science of how we hear is vastly different than the science behind the time alignment and electronic manipulation of the sound prior to hearing it.
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    My take is this... if an amplifier and speakers are used to produce sound at a live event, it is still a copy of what the instrument produces and therefore I don't consider it to be anything more than a live concert. there is zero "Point-source" information there to begin with, and this would also hold true for much of the recorded rock music out there. It takes a brilliant recording engineer to sort out that mess and make a great recording of it.

    A live acoustic performance without amplification, or minimal amplified electric guitars are the types of performance that you will find "point-source" imaging to be far more pronounced, and this is where the SDA really shine. The are also somewhat able to clean up a muddled recording, but if the recording is complete crap... well you cant polish a turd.

    Imaging is one of the greatest attributes of SDA, and one that gets significantly better when the mods are done.
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    Last Post: 02-22-2004, 09:40 PM

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