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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Habanero Monk View Post
    Remember this is all rooted in the post about Jim Salk (and by extension, IMO, Dennis Murphy) having tin ears. Strictly speaking since it was Nooshin's post: I'll take Salk/Murphy over Bob Carver.

    I'll sign up an account over at PETT if you want to carry it on over there with out so much shouting down that is inevitable here. Let me know. You're welcome to point out any errors.
    I trust you realize that, given the topic of this thread and my preference for other brands, that my post was meant to be taken as a joke, right?
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  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Face View Post
    Someone spending $20-30K on speakers is not going to put up with fan noise.
    Fan noise? What Fan noise? Who said anything about fan noise? Also someone who has $20-30K in speakers probably has a dedicated rack sitting elsewhere then in the front of the room with the speakers contributing to smearing the sound stage. Right?

    I just put in a XTi2 4002 and in the low setting couldn't get the fan to come on unless driving the subs so hard you couldn't be in the room.
    Last edited by Habanero Monk; 08-23-2013 at 09:33 PM.
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  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post
    I trust you realize that, given the topic of this thread and my preference for other brands, that my post was meant to be taken as a joke, right?
    Thanks for the clarification.
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  4. #34

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    The article is in the September 2013 issue of the absolute sound, and the page in reference is 104, last paragraph, bottom left. Anyway, the original post mischaracterized what it says. This is the what was said.

    "What you ultimately think of this speaker will be a strong function of the partnering power amp, the safest bet being an amp with a high dampening factor. When I asked Jim Salk for amp recommendations he mentioned an inexpensive option such as the Emotiva XPA-2, several of Frank Alstine's designs, and the BAT VK600. To that list I can safety add the expensive Lamm Audio M1.2 reference monoblocks, and the affordable PrimaLuna Dialogue integrated amp operated in triode mode with a pair of KT120."

  5. #35

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    Given that the review found the speakers to be somewhat subdued in the high frequencies, and based on my own experience with Emotiva amps, the recommendation on the XPA-2 seems like it's a good one for an inexpensive amp. I think it's safe to say that Jim Salk knows something, but not that he was saying the XPA-2 was the equal of any of the other amps he mentioned.

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Habanero Monk View Post



    You may be right, you may not be about what people drive their speakers with. I don't agree with your 'wrong wrong'. I'm willing to bet there are some Revel Salon/Salon2 or KEF's in the 20-30K range being driven with an XPA-2. And there is nothing stopping a well received XLS1500 from driving it either.
    Of course, I can't know every 30K or higher priced speakers owners on the planet. I don't own 30K speakers but I know friends and people who own 30K or more speakers never uses any electronics less than the cost of the speakers in their chain.

    I understand there is a group of weirdo (a rarity) exists who thinks using subpar electronics at bargain price for their highly priced speakers is OK.

    I know one other thing - Crown Amps are OK to use for the subwoofers but I know how they sounds driving a pair of nice speakers. If you consider you falls in that group, I guess the grass is greener on your side so more power to you.
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone.

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    I am fairly sure that if I could afford $30k speakers I would not be driving them with a $400 amp. Emotiva or a pro amp would not be my rack.
    --Gary--

  8. #38

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    The speakers in the review are Fried Audio Towers and have an MSRP of $2,995 a pair. An Emotiva amp wouldn't be out of place for many buyers of speakers in that price range, and they are 4 ohm nominal so a separate amp is almost a requirement. Absolute Sound reviewers do tend to have very expensive gear for their speaker reviews though, and they do still tend to do all their reviews with classical music and sometimes jazz as their main points of reference.

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by megasat16 View Post
    Of course, I can't know every 30K or higher priced speakers owners on the planet. I don't own 30K speakers but I know friends and people who own 30K or more speakers never uses any electronics less than the cost of the speakers in their chain.

    I understand there is a group of weirdo (a rarity) exists who thinks using subpar electronics at bargain price for their highly priced speakers is OK.

    I know one other thing - Crown Amps are OK to use for the subwoofers but I know how they sounds driving a pair of nice speakers. If you consider you falls in that group, I guess the grass is greener on your side so more power to you.
    I know that 'by the numbers' you could certainly drive some Salon 2 speakers with a $400 amp. Would a $400 Carver, Adcom, Parasound be out of the question? Now whether in a SBT scenario that would prove the weak link is another matter. One is objective, the other subjective.

    I have no illusions about my current setup. I have a few speaker upgrade cycles before my Yamaha amp would need upgraded.
    Last edited by Habanero Monk; 08-23-2013 at 10:38 PM.
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  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Face View Post

    Hopefully Carotiva's new amps combine the best of both brands to produce something that actually sounds good and has a good soundstage.
    Ha.....you emo hater.
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

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  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by pearsall001 View Post
    There's a nice article in the latest TAS magazine about how the Freid speaker company went to Jim Salk for the R&D of a speaker they wanted developed. It turned out to be a very successful project. When asked what amps he recommended Jim gave the Emotiva XPA-2, several of Frank Van Alstine's designs and the BAT VK600 as great choices. The author of the article also included the Lamm Audio M1.2 reference monoblocks & the PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium int. amp operated in triode mode w/ a pair of KR120. Interesting that Jim includes the Emo as one of his choices in the same company of the other fine amps. He must know something.


    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFox View Post
    The article is in the September 2013 issue of the absolute sound, and the page in reference is 104, last paragraph, bottom left. Anyway, the original post mischaracterized what it says. This is the what was said.

    "What you ultimately think of this speaker will be a strong function of the partnering power amp, the safest bet being an amp with a high dampening factor. When I asked Jim Salk for amp recommendations he mentioned an inexpensive option such as the Emotiva XPA-2, several of Frank Alstine's designs, and the BAT VK600. To that list I can safety add the expensive Lamm Audio M1.2 reference monoblocks, and the affordable PrimaLuna Dialogue integrated amp operated in triode mode with a pair of KT120."
    Nice omission.
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

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  12. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Habanero Monk View Post
    Thanks for the clarification.
    No problem there Monk.... Just to clarify, I truly and honestly could care less what amp you or anybody else chooses to drive their speakers, and I don't care whatsoever what speakers you choose to listen to either. This is a hobby, not an assembly line, and there are millions of ways to find what's right for you. I will say this however... for me personally, there are a very small percentage of Emo owners that truly need to find a sense of humor in this hobby and lighten up. There is so much to learn and explore in this hobby. Being a one-trick pony and being blindly devoted to a single brand, to the point of being ready to battle anyone over the mere suggestion that something could possibly be better is not at all fun, enjoyable or what this hobby should be all about.
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  13. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by pearsall001 View Post
    Especially in the Class D arena. Plenty of new & exciting things there. As far as Class A, A/B go it's the same old same old as 40yrs ago. Nothing new but man oh man can one get fleeced with some of their prices. But they sure are purdy.
    Basic stereo amplifier design is mature technology, but parts and construction quality is significantly better than what was available 40, 30, 20, and even 10 years ago. Better parts quality, better construction techniques and materials, along with good electrical design, facilitates better rendering of spatial properties and detail than what was available many years ago.

    Many of this forum's members have refreshed their 20+ year old SDAs with better quality crossover components, better internal wiring, and extensive vibration abatement treatments which resulted in fantastic improvements in sound quality.

    Quote Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post
    Being a one-trick pony and being blindly devoted to a single brand, to the point of being ready to battle anyone over the mere suggestion that something could possibly be better is not at all fun, enjoyable or what this hobby should be all about.
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  14. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Habanero Monk View Post
    Amps are far more commodity parts than speaker assemblies. We will have to agree to disagree on this one Mike.

    There are very competent amps that for $400 can drive a $30K set of speakers just fine. It doesn't work the other way around as ROI is concerned.
    I've got a pretty fair amount of seat time with amps ranging from vintage to budget, advanced, to the high end. You'd be surprised how much more resolution/detail/clarity/musicality you get from amps as you go up the chain. At their price I'm impressed with what Emotiva gives the listener. But put it up against a Parasound Halo, SimAudio, etc. at even $3k running a pair of Magnepan 1.7's or Polk LSiM 705's and the differences are readily apparent.

    ****Jim Salk and his wife are two of the nicest, unassuming people you'll talk to. In the past he has toured the audio shows with Van Alstine amps.***
    Last edited by markmarc; 08-23-2013 at 11:40 PM.
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  15. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by markmarc View Post
    I've got a pretty fair amount of seat time with amps ranging from vintage to budget, advanced, to the high end. You'd be surprised how much more resolution/detail/clarity/musicality you get from amps as you go up the chain. At their price I'm impressed with what Emotiva gives the listener. But put it up against a Parasound Halo, SimAudio, etc. at even $3k running a pair of Magnepan 1.7's or Polk LSiM 705's and the differences are readily apparent.
    Just to clarify when I say 'just fine' I mean the amp isn't overheating or going into protect mode. I'd still take a well respected $1000K amp and $9K of speaker vs $5K and $5K. If I was a betting man it is where I would put my chip.
    So hot it burns twice

  16. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Habanero Monk View Post
    Just to clarify when I say 'just fine' I mean the amp isn't overheating or going into protect mode. I'd still take a well respected $1000K amp and $9K of speaker vs $5K and $5K. If I was a betting man it is where I would put my chip.
    I'd take a million dollar amp too... And trade it for a house.
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  17. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    Basic stereo amplifier design is mature technology, but parts and construction quality is significantly better than what was available 40, 30, 20, and even 10 years ago. Better parts quality, better construction techniques and materials, along with good electrical design, facilitates better rendering of spatial properties and detail than what was available many years ago.

    Many of this forum's members have refreshed their 20+ year old SDAs with better quality crossover components, better internal wiring, and extensive vibration abatement treatments which resulted in fantastic improvements in sound quality.
    Since you are an EE. What are your thoughts on taking 400+ components driven at 10V and gettingthem packaged by TI into a single piece of sand and driven with 1.4V?

    What do you think that would do for spatial properties and detail. I wonder how many boutique outfits would like to be able to do that. I would like to see the measured tolerance of that ASIC vs discrete components. Just dropping the driving voltage has to mean something.
    Last edited by Habanero Monk; 08-23-2013 at 11:49 PM.
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  18. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by nguyendot View Post
    I'd take a million dollar amp too... And trade it for a house.
    I saw where a guy took a large, red, paperclip an ended up with a house :)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Habanero Monk View Post
    Just to clarify when I say 'just fine' I mean the amp isn't overheating or going into protect mode. I'd still take a well respected $1000K amp and $9K of speaker vs $5K and $5K. If I was a betting man it is where I would put my chip.
    If I was using a million dollar amp you can be sure my speakers would at least cost $100K or more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Habanero Monk View Post
    Just to clarify when I say 'just fine' I mean the amp isn't overheating or going into protect mode. I'd still take a well respected $1000K amp and $9K of speaker vs $5K and $5K. If I was a betting man it is where I would put my chip.
    One of these days I predict you'll have an epiphany and it will shock you to the core.
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    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    One of these days I predict you'll have an epiphany and it will shock you to the core.
    Where you're concerned. Well I had that awhile ago. I wasn't shocked. Just humored.
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    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    One of these days I predict you'll have an epiphany and it will shock you to the core.
    Hope springs eternal.......

  23. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Habanero Monk View Post
    Where you're concerned. Well I had that awhile ago. I wasn't shocked. Just humored.
    Then you either mis-understood the significance of the moment, it was not the moment at all or you are so closed minded in your thinking that it could walk right up to you and beat you senseless and still it would be lost on you, I hope for the first two and not the latter.
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  24. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Habanero Monk View Post
    Since you are an EE. What are your thoughts on taking 400+ components driven at 10V and gettingthem packaged by TI into a single piece of sand and driven with 1.4V? What do you think that would do for spatial properties and detail. I wonder how many boutique outfits would like to be able to do that. I would like to see the measured tolerance of that ASIC vs discrete components. Just dropping the driving voltage has to mean something.
    Discrete designs give a designer a degree of flexibility and quality control that is unavailable with integrated circuits. Even more important than that, the noise figures of IC's are generally not attractive to designers of high quality amplifiers.

    Using lower powered chips typically results in more amplifier stages which typically results in more cumulative noise. This is why the best designs from the "boutique outfits" have a very small number of amplifier stages. For high quality amplification, simpler is better. The fewer components the signal has to pass through, the less damage will be done to it.

    Integrated circuits are nice if you are trying to reduce size, weight, and cost. If the intent is to do the least amount of harm to an audio signal, then high quality discrete components with a minimal number of amplification stages is the best way to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Habanero Monk View Post
    I'd still take a well respected $1000K amp and $9K of speaker vs $5K and $5K. If I was a betting man it is where I would put my chip.
    You have to be careful about going solely on cost and other people's opinions. Just because a speaker costs $9K and people rave about it does not mean that its design, construction, and sound quality warrant such investment. It may not give you $9K of listening pleasure. The people who rave about the thing might have entirely different listening preferences than yours.
    Last edited by DarqueKnight; 08-24-2013 at 12:14 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Habanero Monk View Post
    Where you're concerned. Well I had that awhile ago. I wasn't shocked. Just humored.
    A closed mind is a terrible thing. I do feel sorry for you, I really do.
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

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    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    One of these days I predict you'll have an epiphany and it will shock you to the core.
    I'm sure you've been called many things, but a prophet is not one of them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Habanero Monk View Post
    Just to clarify when I say 'just fine' I mean the amp isn't overheating or going into protect mode. I'd still take a well respected $1000K amp and $9K of speaker vs $5K and $5K. If I was a betting man it is where I would put my chip.
    How about well under $1000 for speakers and $2k for your amp/pre? That's what I'm running, and I wouldn't have it any other way. At the end of the day, I'll likely have 3x as much in my amps as I will in my speakers, and that's after new tweeters/completely new crossover design on the speakers.
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    There's a good number of us here that have substantially much more invested in the gear than the speakers and for good reason.
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

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    Quote Originally Posted by pearsall001 View Post
    Especially in the Class D arena. Plenty of new & exciting things there. As far as Class A, A/B go it's the same old same old as 40yrs ago. Nothing new but man oh man can one get fleeced with some of their prices. But they sure are purdy.
    You obviously haven't listened to any Class A, A/B amps in the past 40 years to make a silly blanket statement like that. It's fine to have your preference, but let's not make silly statements to bolster your opinion. It can make one look foolish and uninformed.

    H9
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    Phil, I obviously can't speak for Jim Salk, but ommitting the full quote is grossly misleading. If there are any of our forum members that can't hear a difference between an XPA-2 and a BAT VK-600 then you will need to improve the rest of your gear, or improve your listening skills. They are NOWHERE near the same level. That's just the way it is. Period.
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:

    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."

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