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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Habanero Monk View Post
    What are your thoughts on taking 400+ components driven at 10V and gettingthem packaged by TI into a single piece of sand and driven with 1.4V?
    Maybe you wouldn't mind one others opinion, FWIW. Since this thread was talking amplifiers, I'll assume that's what your referring to.

    The amp signal side shouldn't ever have 400+ components! Only if your over into home theatre stuff and want all kinds of gimmicky effects stuff and then that's done with IC's like your wanting. That's not high quality audio territory, more like tons of buttons to impress the unknowing, unhearing masses.

    It sounds like your referring to (1.4v) the supply rail and chips. The signal in will often be more than 1.4v and you don't want to drop it down and re-amp it. Not the direction you go with audio.

    Just so you know, the typical amp structure is more like a voltage gain stage and then the output current driving stage. Each of those stages should be a handful of components, not hundreds. Also, you throw in one of the variety of specific to the design input circuits which could be another handful of parts. Neither of the two key stages is typically run on low voltage.

    About half the amp should be the power supply. That's where quality originates. Little there is done in the IC world and less yet at the low voltages.

    Quote Originally Posted by Habanero Monk View Post
    What do you think that would do for spatial properties and detail.
    Kill it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Habanero Monk View Post
    I wonder how many boutique outfits would like to be able to do that.
    None.

    Quote Originally Posted by Habanero Monk View Post
    I would like to see the measured tolerance of that ASIC vs discrete components. Just dropping the driving voltage has to mean something.
    All the designers know that discrete is the quality route. Big chips are for the gimmickery stuff. Not for audio ampification.

    Big packages of chips are for solving munchies, not high quality audio.

    CJ
    As seen on the AVS forum... "Radio Shack zip cord kicks butt."

  2. #62

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    It really sucks , I have yet to sit down and experience a Emotiva amp or any of their products. Good bad or what have you , I really need to hear one.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.

  3. #63

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    Fwiw, I have owned a XPA-5,a B&K 200.2,and a VK500,in that order! They all sounded different in many ways,with a substantial improvement in detail,soundstage, and overall listening pleasure as I moved up the ladder!
    I am in no way either on the Emo wagon,or off the Emo wagon! I thought there amp did very well at its price point! However,the more money I spent,(coincidence or not)the better the sound! Next Wednesday,I'll have upped the ladder to a VK600SE! I'm hoping that sounds even better than the previous 3!

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    Nice omission.
    LOL! Not trying to deceive but In the same breath I don't consider Frank's amps or the mentioned BAT to be on the inexpensive side. It's just too funny when a well respected name in audio dares to mention that an Emo amp as well as the other (more expensive) options is one of his recommendations that all hell breaks loose.

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by headrott View Post
    Phil, I obviously can't speak for Jim Salk, but ommitting the full quote is grossly misleading. If there are any of our forum members that can't hear a difference between an XPA-2 and a BAT VK-600 then you will need to improve the rest of your gear, or improve your listening skills. They are NOWHERE near the same level. That's just the way it is. Period.
    That's an awfully bold statement which of course can't be backed up except as merely being one's opinion. Which by the way is pretty much the norm when it comes to audio. One man's treasure is another man's junk & vise versa.

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    You obviously haven't listened to any Class A, A/B amps in the past 40 years to make a silly blanket statement like that. It's fine to have your preference, but let's not make silly statements to bolster your opinion. It can make one look foolish and uninformed.

    H9
    Says who...you. LOL!

  7. #67

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    Talk about blowing stuff out of proportion.

    For those with a bit of common sense and reading comprehension, Jim Salk mentioned a few amps in given budget categories, in no way did he elude that all amps he mentioned were on the same playing field.....AND AS BUDGET AMPS GO.....new.....Emo is king in that department. which is probably why Jim mentioned them to begin with.

    Is that so hard ? Or bad ? Emotiva is what it is, a budget entry level way into separates. Does that make them a giant killer .....no, but an option for moving north of a standard AVR.

    The problem as I see it anyway, is when people start improving their gear beyond what is normally considered "budget" or "bang for your buck" gear. They ask for recommendations and Emo is immediately off the list and some take offense to that. If the situation was reversed, and someone asked about downsizing their rig, would you recommend the Bat vk600 ? Of course not.

    I realize in audio everyone has their favorites, fanboys and such, but let's use some common sense before taking liberties with articles and trying to read between the lines.

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    Great synopsis Tony
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  9. #69

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    The OP doctored the Jim Salk quote in order to change Jim's meaning. Why else would that be done except to needlessly stir the pot? The original quote makes sense and places the Emo amp in the proper category: inexpensive, i.e. entry level. As a former Emo owner who has moved on I can concur with that.
    Last edited by Jetmaker737; 08-24-2013 at 10:51 AM.
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  10. #70

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    Phil walked a fine line between paraphrasing and outright omission. That's why one should always do a little research when it's not a direct quote. That was a key piece of information to leave out. Phil just twisted it in the right way to benefit his POV. It's not like Jim Salk didn't recommend Emo, but the context in which he recommended it was completely ignored by Phil. You ever run for political office Phil?

    And for god sakes many of you people are blowing it way out of proportion. Tony, hammer, nail, head.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

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  11. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFox View Post
    The article is in the September 2013 issue of the absolute sound, and the page in reference is 104, last paragraph, bottom left. Anyway, the original post mischaracterized what it says. This is the what was said.

    "What you ultimately think of this speaker will be a strong function of the partnering power amp, the safest bet being an amp with a high dampening factor. When I asked Jim Salk for amp recommendations he mentioned an inexpensive option such as the Emotiva XPA-2, several of Frank Alstine's designs, and the BAT VK600. To that list I can safety add the expensive Lamm Audio M1.2 reference monoblocks, and the affordable PrimaLuna Dialogue integrated amp operated in triode mode with a pair of KT120."
    Thanks again for the clarification.

    Phil, turning into a troll?
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    Phil walked a fine line between paraphrasing and outright omission. That's why one should always do a little research when it's not a direct quote. That was a key piece of information to leave out. Phil just twisted it in the right way to benefit his POV. It's not like Jim Salk didn't recommend Emo, but the context in which he recommended it was completely ignored by Phil. You ever run for political office Phil?

    And for god sakes many of you people are blowing it way out of proportion. Tony, hammer, nail, head.

    H9
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFox View Post
    When I asked Jim Salk for amp recommendations he mentioned an inexpensive option such as the Emotiva XPA-2, several of Frank Alstine's designs, and the BAT VK600. To that list I can safety add the expensive Lamm Audio M1.2 reference monoblocks, and the affordable PrimaLuna Dialogue integrated amp operated in triode mode with a pair of KT120."
    Why is the emphasis placed on Jim Salk about the Emotiva "he mentioned an inexpensive option" or is it the interviewer interjecting his own commentary?

    I would be willing to bet several amps where mentioned and the commentary added later. Be interesting to get the interview transcripts if it was recorded.

    I don't believe Mr. Salk is the one using that particular color of paint in this instance. Pearlsal I think is paraphrasing correct context. I can't say that for everyone here and I do have some prime examples of purposeful obfuscation if one really wants to throw rocks.
    Last edited by Habanero Monk; 08-24-2013 at 12:10 PM.
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  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Face View Post
    Thanks again for the clarification.

    Phil, turning into a troll?
    Man oh man you guys are all off the rails! You make for entertaining reading though. Everyone has their opinions & of course nothing is based on fact. It's only audio & everyone hears differently. Keep it coming...I'm out deep sea fishing & when there's a lull in the action I'll check in. Don't dissapoint me now fella's

  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by mantis View Post
    ...I have yet to sit down and experience a Emotiva amp or any of their products. Good bad or what have you , I really need to hear one.
    Same here....I only continue to read the reviews from others. I have read about some that have replaced amps like McIntosh with them and some that say they are the crappies, piece of junk , audiophile wannabe crap to have ever hit the audiophile marketplace.

    There is SO much out there to listen to these days. When I think of the dreamy stuff I want to listen to, Pass Labs , BAT amps , JBL Everest, Salk SoundScape, Wilson Audio, Revel, Quad, etc come to mind. But, on the flip it would be nice to listen to an Emotiva amp driving a set of LSiM703 compared to a Parasound Halo...all product that are within reach.....well a used Halo anyway. The used market is the only way some of us can play...I'm still saving pennies just to get the HT complete so that I can move on to the next thing. The 2 ch system...which might not come to together for awhile...or the next house....I have dreams of a listening room so names the listening loft.

    So I get why some go for new Emo stuff....something for everyone....No love, No hate.
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  15. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    Discrete designs give a designer a degree of flexibility and quality control that is unavailable with integrated circuits. Even more important than that, the noise figures of IC's are generally not attractive to designers of high quality amplifiers.

    Using lower powered chips typically results in more amplifier stages which typically results in more cumulative noise. This is why the best designs from the "boutique outfits" have a very small number of amplifier stages. For high quality amplification, simpler is better. The fewer components the signal has to pass through, the less damage will be done to it.

    Integrated circuits are nice if you are trying to reduce size, weight, and cost. If the intent is to do the least amount of harm to an audio signal, then high quality discrete components with a minimal number of amplification stages is the best way to go.
    I think it is of note that they went to a company with a proven history in Signal Processing. After all (outside of the power and analog stage) DAC's are able to obtain extremely low to vanishing noise levels.


    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    You have to be careful about going solely on cost and other people's opinions. Just because a speaker costs $9K and people rave about it does not mean that its design, construction, and sound quality warrant such investment. It may not give you $9K of listening pleasure. The people who rave about the thing might have entirely different listening preferences than yours.
    I am speaking in generalities and will let stand what I said how I said it. Generally $9k buys more speaker than $5K. Mileage will vary.
    Last edited by Habanero Monk; 08-24-2013 at 01:19 PM.
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  16. #76

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    The OP doctored the Jim Salk quote in order to change Jim's meaning. Why else would that be done except to needlessly stir the pot?
    BINGO.......that's his MO.
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

  17. #77

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    "The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that it is difficult to determine whether or not they are genuine." -Abraham Lincoln
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  18. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Habanero Monk View Post
    After all (outside of the power and analog stage) DAC's are able to obtain extremely low to vanishing noise levels.
    Outside ?? You mean of the 2 most important parts of a dac ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    BINGO.......that's his MO.
    Don't flatter yourselves. You guys are so easy it's embarrassing. LOL!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by pearsall001 View Post
    Don't flatter yourselves. You guys are so easy it's embarrassing. LOL!!

    Once you posted a manipulated article in order to sway the meme you are pushing you lost all credibility.
    You are a farce.

  21. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyb View Post
    Outside ?? You mean of the 2 most important parts of a dac ?
    Did I discount their importance? I'm talking about an IC and not the discrete components. I excluded those purposefully so I would not have 5 people all point out the analog output and power section are equally important. We all know that
    Last edited by Habanero Monk; 08-24-2013 at 03:22 PM.
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  22. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by brgman View Post
    Once you posted a manipulated article in order to sway the meme you are pushing you lost all credibility.
    You are a farce.
    So far Phil and Myself are the only ones that get that the "inexpensive amp" comment was with all good probability op ed by the articles author and not something Jim Salk said. Some higher deity wept

    Let's face it that is the crux of this current thread crash.
    So hot it burns twice

  23. #83

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    I could of sworn there was an old mantra ,spend the most on the best speakers you can afford then everything else downstream would be ok.Now again I'm talkin 70's -80s' lately it's been garbage in garbage out ,but I'm not totally convinced of that either.

  24. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by pearsall001 View Post
    Man oh man you guys are all off the rails! You make for entertaining reading though. Everyone has their opinions & of course nothing is based on fact. It's only audio & everyone hears differently. Keep it coming...I'm out deep sea fishing & when there's a lull in the action I'll check in. Don't dissapoint me now fella's
    You're fitting the definition perfectly: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche

  25. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by mantis View Post
    It really sucks , I have yet to sit down and experience a Emotiva amp or any of their products. Good bad or what have you , I really need to hear one.
    Agree completely.

    I am no audiophile, and will never pretend to be. I peruse the Polk message boards because a) I find new information on products or the industry itself and b) I really like Polk products and the company in general and c) for entertainment.

    I have a few LSi setups around the house driven by Adcom or Sunfire. If either of these amps take a hard dive, I'm very likely to try Emotiva with an extremely open mind.
    Do you hear that buzzing noise?

  26. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Face View Post
    You're fitting the definition perfectly: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29
    Accusing Phil of manipulating that article reference is trolling also. Again, IMO, Jim didn't make that statement about inexpensive.

    Jim recommended a list of amps and, again IMO, the author put in the reference to price. That after this has been pointed out as a real potential that you continue to gun after him. That's trolling also. You're trying to start something with Phil that doesn't need started.

    Go read the item in full again and point out where Jim is a 1st party to saying anything about the affordability of the Emotiva. He just rattled off a list of amps folks.
    So hot it burns twice

  27. #87

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    Quit with the straw man and stop dragging Jim into this.

    In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,[1] by posting inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a forum, chat room, or blog), either accidentally[3][4] or with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[5] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche

  28. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Face View Post
    Quit with the straw man and stop dragging Jim into this.
    All Phil did is point out that a man running a well respected audio shop, that many here would like to own, mentioned among other amps an Emotiva.

    Any driving off the cliffs happened because after Phil's paraphrasing someone with poor reading comprehension hasn't yet woken up to the fact that Jim didn't utter the term inexpensive.

    At least I didn't insinuate he's a hack. Who's dragging him into this?
    Last edited by Habanero Monk; 08-24-2013 at 03:43 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Habanero Monk View Post
    So far Phil and Myself are the only ones that get that the "inexpensive amp" comment was with all good probability op ed by the articles author and not something Jim Salk said. Some higher deity wept

    Let's face it that is the crux of this current thread crash.
    Monk, if you remember correctly though, Phil PRESENTED the quote as something Jim Salk implied (that an Emotiva XPA-2 is on par with a BAT VK-600). This was a misleading way of presenting what Jim Salk actually meant. That is the cause of this "thread crash" as you put it. I would not call it a "thread crash", but a "thread correction", because that's what it is. Presenting what Jim Salk actually said in stead of taking what he said out of context and then implying that's what he meant.
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:

    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."

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    I don't see a crash (atleast not yet) it's just one of numerous re-hashed discussions. Just because it's not going your way doesn't mean it's a "crashed" thread.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

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