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  1. #1

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    Talking Wattage Schmattage!

    We tend to put a lot of emphasis on wattage when talking about amplifiers, so as an experiment I hooked my LSI 7's up to my 8.5 yes that is 8 point 5 wpc Qinpu A3 amp in my office rig, and you know what? They sound awesome. Plenty of gain, no distortion no clipping no sh*t! The 7's are 4ohms, and the amp isn't even close to hot yet... Been running for 2 hours.

    Probably not going to get 120 db's out of them, but 84db at about 12:00 on the vol...

    And they sound sweet.
    HT:Polk LSi c LSi 15's LSi 7's LSi FX's Dual DSW MP3K's Marantz AV7701 Sunfire TGA-7401 Oppo BDP-93 Sony PS3 Directv Genie HD DVR Sony 55" 3D LED LCD

    2 C: VR3 LSIM 703's Monitor 5B's VR3 LSi 9's Audioquest Rocket 33's DSW MP 1K Yaqin MC100B with Shuguang 50Years Treasures KT 88's & CV181Z's Tesla E83CC's Marantz 2385 Yamaha M80 Parasound 2100 Pre Squeezebox Touch Marantz SA8004 SACD Music Hall MMF 5.1 TT Musical Surroundings Phonomena II Phono Pre Solid Silver IC's, Pangea PC's

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    mmmm-hmmm. Preachin' to the choir, ol' son...

    3.5 wpc at my house... 'course, the loudspeakers have sensitivity of about 104 dB per watt @ 1 meter...

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    Last edited by mhardy6647; 08-23-2013 at 12:59 PM.
    all the best,
    mrh

  3. #3

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    28 wpc on 87 db speakers here. Even had them with a 22 wpc raven integrated and the 16 wpc marantz 2216. All of them made them sing and sounded much better than higher watt counterparts.
    Usher CP-6311, Shuguang S200MK, Shuguang S845MK, Pioneer BDP-51fd, Douglas IC's, AQ cv-8 SC's, Pangea/Douglas PC's, Epson 8100

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    It's amazing how much sound you can get out of even one watt, depending on the sensitivity of the speaker. I'm from the old school where 1 o'clock on the preamp volume pot is about as far as you want to push an amp. On my power amps I leave the gain pots cranked max. Maybe others can chime in, I'm sure there are exceptions to this old way of thinking,lol.

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    For many years I had a pair of the notoriously insensitive AR-3 three-way, acoustic suspension "monkey coffins" set up in the basement driven by a Maggotbox (Magnavox) push-pull EL84 stereo power amp of ca. 12 wpc... and the combination, to my ears and tastes, sounded danged fine nearfield.
    all the best,
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    Amen. 27 wpc here, have had it hooked up to LsiM 703 all the way to 104 db 15" open baffles. Still moves some air and sounds good to my ears.
    Wris****ch--->Crisco

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    Quote Originally Posted by strider View Post
    Amen. 27 wpc here, have had it hooked up to LsiM 703 all the way to 104 db 15" open baffles. Still moves some air and sounds good to my ears.
    Ha Great signature... Broken Hearts are for A**holes!

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    HT:Polk LSi c LSi 15's LSi 7's LSi FX's Dual DSW MP3K's Marantz AV7701 Sunfire TGA-7401 Oppo BDP-93 Sony PS3 Directv Genie HD DVR Sony 55" 3D LED LCD

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    I have heard that over on the Klipsch site ,that a very small watt amp can push even Klipsch Corner Horns .I guess it's the effeciency of the speakers that really counts.Good no really good for you.

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    Yeah "efficiency" is a factor and a lot of HORN designs are very efficient. Mhardy is most likely running a horn speaker at that rating. Also remember that even a lower efficiency speaker, like 82 dbs can still play fairly loud even at ONE watt a meter away (after all 85db+ is where extended exposure starts to take a toll on your hearing!). And that most of us rarely push our equipment much past 1-10 watts. Remember what Nelson Pass said about the "first watt" and how important that is! And how he spent a lot of time with full range drivers that were relatively efficient experimenting with lower watt designs?

    Then again you can watch VU meters and see how loud many speakers sound at 1-5 watts? Or the dozen or so videos on youtube where that little Lepai 2020A+ amp is driving garage size speakers reasonably loudly even though it peaks at about 7 watts a side?

    That's not to say that more power is not necessary in many set ups. But then again, "tube" power is a little different in its presentation than solid state power of the same rating.

    cnh
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    Those flea power tubs amps are pretty much in clipping mode as soon as they're powered up. That's the beauty of tubes...they clilp oh so nicely. Heaven forbid when you need some dynamic headroom. Better head for the SS amps to get the job done.

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    CNH,that was really infomative, see what a layman can learn here in just a few minutes.Thanks, me thinks tubes would be to problematic w/ bias control ,heat factor and warm up time.I'm very happy w/ my instant on Adcom and just a few seconds to spool down.Oh remember the thread ages ago about amps powering down and how some speakers made kinda a deflating balloon sound.Well, for what ever reason and I listened very carefully to my SDA 2bs and they make no such sound when powering down,whether good bad or indifferent...Lew

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    Thanks, me thinks tubes would be to problematic w/ bias control ,heat factor and warm up time.I'm very happy w/ my instant on Adcom and just a few seconds to spool down.
    You don't know what you're missing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    You don't know what you're missing.
    Might be for the best. After all, they're so problematic. Lew, go at your own pace, but at some point you need to spend some time with some tubes in your rig.
    Usher CP-6311, Shuguang S200MK, Shuguang S845MK, Pioneer BDP-51fd, Douglas IC's, AQ cv-8 SC's, Pangea/Douglas PC's, Epson 8100

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    Quite frankly I've come to think of tubes along the line of people who simply just want to play around with their gear. What with swapping tubes and all to tailor make the sound to their individual ears. If that is what you like, more power to you. But some of us simply want to turn on our gear and sit back and enjoy the tunes. Differences are what make the world go round. So long as you don't insist that your way is the only right way or your gear or your preference/cost of gear is the only good gear then to each their own, live and let live.
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    So long as you don't insist that your way is the only right way or your gear or your preference/cost of gear is the only good gear then to each their own, live and let live.
    And yet you comment...

    Quite frankly I've come to think of tubes along the line of people who simply just want to play around with their gear.
    ....while having never tried tubes yourself.
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

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    “Apparently, I did not previously have enough power available to fully flesh out the notes of such instruments. I imagine that there is another level of realism to be discovered if I go even higher in amplifier power.”

    “Very large reserves of clean, fast, and stable power impart improvements in clarity, liquidity, tactile sensation and emotional impact to well-recorded music that must be heard to be believed.”

    From this thread.

    http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...mplifier+power

    I’m sticking with Raife and keeping my "overpowered" amps.
    Make yourself necessary to someone. Ralph Waldo Emerson

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  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    And yet you comment.......while having never tried tubes yourself.
    Because everything I have read here on this board is about some of you guys mixing and matching and swapping out tubes and getting different sounds out of each and every swap.

    I don't need to try them because I'm not interested in doing so, but at the same time I don't care if you and others care to do so. Nor does it mean that tubes are better, it just means that some of you prefer the sound of tubes as opposed to the sound of SS amps driving your gear.

    I am a fan and believer of consistency, and just sitting back and enjoying the tunes. I am not interested in rebuilding my 23 year old speakers or rebuilding crossovers or swapping out the tweeters in them or doing so in the brand new LSIM speakers.

    I would say that the majority of us are not the least bit interested in doing so. But for those of you that are, go ahead knock yourselves out.
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  18. #18

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    Schmattage my hiney! Bring the Power. Room size, distance from speakers, speaker efficiency, personal listening loudness, etc. all have to be added to the equation.
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  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by SCompRacer View Post

    “Very large reserves of clean, fast, and stable power impart improvements in clarity, liquidity, tactile sensation and emotional impact to well-recorded music that must be heard to be believed.”
    :
    I'll fall in this camp myself. But really it depends on your listening habits and what exactly it is your powering.....as in speakers. Also I fall in the camp of "all watts are not created equal". It is true we put too much emphasis on watts when we should be talking current. 100 watts from an AVR.......or 100 watts from a tube amp, even a SS amp, no comparison at all.

    This is why we always state quality watts is more important than quantity. If you can get both in one amp then you are on the cusp of your holy grail. There's more to audio than meets the eye or the next flavor of the month review. Unfortunately not everyone is willing to dive that deep into knowledge or understanding the basic principles of audio.

    Cathy stated it herself, she just wants to turn on the gear and enjoy the tunes. Nothing wrong with that scenario, and most people probably feel the same way which is why we audio nutjobs are somewhat of a niche market. Good sound can be had at any level, we all know that, but I just dislike the idea that some purpose that spending more coin or moving on to higher levels of enjoyment is silly.

    What makes this forum stand out in my opinion, is that regardless if you just want a computer rig, head phone rig, HTIB rig, 2 channel or full blown HT, our knowledge base here can help anyone get good sound out of anything....well almost anything.

    That said, Flea amps......dig 'em. You'd be surprised when matched up to highly efficient speakers the sound that can come out of these things.....especially with horns. Horns aren't my cup of tea but if they were, you betcha I'd be seriously looking at some of these low wattage flea amps.

    My advice to some of you is to just get out and visit some higher end shops, look for guys who may live by you who own higher end gear and just.....LISTEN. You don't have to commit to buying anything, you may never reach certain levels of spending in your audio budget, but just to hear what is possible in audio reproduction will blow your mind.

  20. #20

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    I wouldn't mind having big power, but I haven't found any at reasonable prices that I'd consider. I also don't have a reason to venture into that category given the synergy my system has. The reason tubes get mentioned is that they do add something to the music that most lower budget SS pieces can't. We want people to reach audio nirvana at the highest level so we bring it up, but if they take a different route, more power to them. I searched long and hard before I pulled the trigger on the Shuguangs, looking at both SS and tube monoblocks. I fully intended to get the Oppo 105 down the road, which meant I could eliminate a preamp in the loop. If I went SS, then I wouldn't have tubes anywhere in the rig and I didn't want to go that route. I have heard SS amps I would definitely not be opposed to running, but they are well out of my price range at this point.

    Cathy, I think all of us would be better off if we could just be happy with our system like you are. I don't know what it is that makes you so content because its obvious you'll spend money in the hobby, but its somewhat refreshing to see someone completely content.
    Usher CP-6311, Shuguang S200MK, Shuguang S845MK, Pioneer BDP-51fd, Douglas IC's, AQ cv-8 SC's, Pangea/Douglas PC's, Epson 8100

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyb View Post
    That said, Flea amps......dig 'em. You'd be surprised when matched up to highly efficient speakers the sound that can come out of these things.....especially with horns. Horns aren't my cup of tea but if they were, you betcha I'd be seriously looking at some of these low wattage flea amps.
    Horns are not for me either, but I was VERY impressed with how well my Usher's can handle low power units. Not talking flea-power, but still less than 30 WPC. If I didn't have the opportunity to hear them on other lower-powered gear, I might have jumped on high-power SS thinking I needed it. In the end, I'm extremely happy with the purchase and think I would've been hard-pressed to find a better match for $2k than the pre/amp Shuguang combo. I did go out on a limb and also called many Polkies to get their input prior to purchase (no demo available), and with their opinions and the overwhelming approval of amps using 300b's to drive 845's, I was sold that they would be a good match.

    After hearing them on other speakers as well and seeing how they struggled with higher efficiency speakers, I'm starting to form the opinion that the load on the amp is MUCH more important than the efficiency of the speaker. Even if the amp can "handle" the load, I suspect a flea-powered unit with 8 ohm, low efficiency speakers will still sound better than many high-powered units with 4-ohm speakers with a 3-5 db gain in efficiency.
    Usher CP-6311, Shuguang S200MK, Shuguang S845MK, Pioneer BDP-51fd, Douglas IC's, AQ cv-8 SC's, Pangea/Douglas PC's, Epson 8100

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    Quote Originally Posted by DSkip View Post
    ...Cathy, I think all of us would be better off if we could just be happy with our system like you are. I don't know what it is that makes you so content because its obvious you'll spend money in the hobby, but its somewhat refreshing to see someone completely content.
    I think I'm content with my system because I decided as a teenager that one of my goals in life was to have a good stereo system. Well I not only achieved it, I EXCEEDED it beyond my wildest dreams, and a good percentage of the credit has to go to this forum! Could it be better of course things can always be improved, but for me it would not be worth the considerable expense that it would take to get there, and I would be totally pissed if I spent all that money just to get a minimal amount of better sound. When I spend that kind of money I want to hear a BIG improvement. So it's a combination of how content I am now, as well as my practical nature coming into play.

    For example, I am starting to consider getting an all in one phone/tablet/mp3 player. The Samsung Note looks great, but I don't need a plan, and I really don't want to spend over $600.00 to buy one out right from T-Mobile. So until someone comes out with one that has a minimum of a 5" screen I will keep my little phone and using my Samsung 5.0 media player for everything else.
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    That's admirable Cathy and you have a very nice rig. But, on the flip side you need to stop ragging on those that do want to go the next few levels up, spend lots more $$$ and get more enjoyment without pulling out the "elitist or snob" card and that goes for a lot of people here.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

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    As far as wattage I started my experience with Polk speakers with the infamous NAD 3020 and the 7B monitors. 20 watts of amazement is all I can say. For 20 years I needed no more. The only thing that forced my hand was the NAD deciding on its own it deserved to retire. I mourned for a time and the started down the path that put me here. 100 watts per channel of KT88 power with massive transformers and .......
    Certainly different and more substantial, but those twenty years of twenty watts ..... I am so glad I had them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    That's admirable Cathy and you have a very nice rig. But, on the flip side you need to stop ragging on those that do want to go the next few levels up, spend lots more $$$ and get more enjoyment without pulling out the "elitist or snob" card and that goes for a lot of people here.

    H9
    The only time I get to ragging is when those of you who spend more dollars immediately start ragging on Emotiva or other supposed "Entry" level gear just because you have grown so far beyond it. Entry level is relative to each individual person. You immediately point people to buy used gear that you consider better, totally discounting the fact that not everyone is comfortable buying used products. None of this gear is cheap new or used and some people will feel more comfortable buying brand new.

    I would say that just about any separates are better than an all in one receivers that includes Emotiva, & Outlaw Audio.

    If people will stop jumping into Emotiva discussions to put them down and simply ignore those threads these train wrecks wouldn't happen, and thoughts of these people being snobs/elitists wouldn't occur. Live and let live can/should be practiced on BOTH sides of these discussions.
    Last edited by cfrizz; 08-24-2013 at 03:30 PM.
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    "If people will stop jumping into Emotiva discussions to put them down and simply ignore those threads these train wrecks wouldn't happen, and thoughts of these people being snobs/elitists wouldn't occur. Live and let live can/should be practiced on BOTH sides of these discussions. "

    Hammer, nail, head...
    Last edited by ALL212; 08-24-2013 at 03:52 PM.
    Aaron

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    Quote Originally Posted by ALL212 View Post
    "If people will stop jumping into Emotiva discussions to put them down and simply ignore those threads these train wrecks wouldn't happen, and thoughts of these people being snobs/elitists wouldn't occur. Live and let live can/should be practiced on BOTH sides of these discussions. "

    Hammer, head, nail...
    Indeed!! Amen to that...
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALL212 View Post
    "If people will stop jumping into Emotiva discussions to put them down and simply ignore those threads these train wrecks wouldn't happen, and thoughts of these people being snobs/elitists wouldn't occur. Live and let live can/should be practiced on BOTH sides of these discussions. "

    Hammer, head, nail...
    Its all about education. I've backed off considerably because I realize you can't teach someone who has their head so far up their ass they can't hear you. Again, we are battling the notion that Emotiva is God's gift to audio. It isn't. If someone is willing to buy used, they can easily top the performance of Emo. There are SO MANY options out there that people need to get their learn on before proclaiming such garbage. That was part of the idea behind my $1k budget system: get names of gear out there that is very reasonably priced that newer hobbyists might not know about.

    As far as Emotiva and their gear, I actually talked with a friend here last night and we both agreed that we would like to hear Emotiva amps pushing LSiM's. We both think that, sonically, they would probably be a pretty good match, especially for a theater setup. I think Emotiva gear is a good option if all you want is new and a warranty. They aren't giant killers, even if their specs say they are. I can liken that to my experience with the Realistic STA-2000D and Marantz 2216. The Realistic was a beast, well built at about 3 times the weight, and put out 4 times the power. Put them head-to-head, and the Marantz ran circles around the Realistic. My point? Spec's are great, but they don't mean a damn thing when it comes to performance. Emotiva lives off those specs because everyone equates power with good sound. Again, back to the education point...

    Emotiva did a great job offering amps with specs that are damn hard to beat and separate processors that you can't find anywhere else for the price (outside of Outlaw). They tapped into a population that needed to be tapped into, and I applaud them for that. I just wish people would understand what Emotiva is and not make them what they want it to be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSkip View Post
    Its all about education. I've backed off considerably because I realize you can't teach someone who has their head so far up their ass they can't hear you. Again, we are battling the notion that Emotiva is God's gift to audio. It isn't. If someone is willing to buy used, they can easily top the performance of Emo. There are SO MANY options out there that people need to get their learn on before proclaiming such garbage. That was part of the idea behind my $1k budget system: get names of gear out there that is very reasonably priced that newer hobbyists might not know about.

    As far as Emotiva and their gear, I actually talked with a friend here last night and we both agreed that we would like to hear Emotiva amps pushing LSiM's. We both think that, sonically, they would probably be a pretty good match, especially for a theater setup. I think Emotiva gear is a good option if all you want is new and a warranty. They aren't giant killers, even if their specs say they are. I can liken that to my experience with the Realistic STA-2000D and Marantz 2216. The Realistic was a beast, well built at about 3 times the weight, and put out 4 times the power. Put them head-to-head, and the Marantz ran circles around the Realistic. My point? Spec's are great, but they don't mean a damn thing when it comes to performance. Emotiva lives off those specs because everyone equates power with good sound. Again, back to the education point...

    Emotiva did a great job offering amps with specs that are damn hard to beat and separate processors that you can't find anywhere else for the price (outside of Outlaw). They tapped into a population that needed to be tapped into, and I applaud them for that. I just wish people would understand what Emotiva is and not make them what they want it to be.
    Hammer, nail, head
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey081057 View Post
    We tend to put a lot of emphasis on wattage when talking about amplifiers, so as an experiment I hooked my LSI 7's up to my 8.5 yes that is 8 point 5 wpc Qinpu A3 amp in my office rig, and you know what? They sound awesome. Plenty of gain, no distortion no clipping no sh*t! The 7's are 4ohms, and the amp isn't even close to hot yet... Been running for 2 hours.

    Probably not going to get 120 db's out of them, but 84db at about 12:00 on the vol...

    And they sound sweet.
    I'm not seeing the word Emotiva anywhere in this OP original thread. WTF do these last two posts have to do with this thread?
    Aaron

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