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  1. #31

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    treitz3,

    Nicely said...

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by treitz3 View Post
    Thing is, not all binding posts cost $5.00 and not all wall outlets cost $2.00. There are some that have spent thousands just on these two bottlenecks alone. Tom
    And to be fair, there are plenty of people (learned people) who don't feel these are bottlenecks. So if you perceive them as bottlenecks, that is when you want to go out and do something about it.

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by treitz3 View Post
    Thing is, not all binding posts cost $5.00 and not all wall outlets cost $2.00. There are some that have spent thousands just on these two bottlenecks alone. There are many different levels that folks in this hobby are on. If you had told me when I first started in this hobby that I would pay over 3 digits for a CD, I would have laughed. If you had told me that I would pay 1K just for a stand for the gear to sit on, I would have told you that you were crazy. If you had told me that I could have purchased a truck PIF in cash with the amount of money I have spent over the years on cables? I would have plum told you that you had lost your mind.

    I know of guys that have spent more on multiple acousticians [and NOTHING else] than it would take to purchase a very nice 4 bedroom house on a golf course. Then again, I know of guys that think that spending anything over $300.00 on an amplifier or $500.00 on a total system is a complete waste of money. There are some folks out there that have speakers that are worth more on the used market than my entire house cost brand new.

    The levels of where your rig is and whether or not a 10K cable is worth it to you, mainly depends on where one is at within their own audio journey......and how much one can afford. For some, 10K for a cable is a drop in the bucket compared to the total cost of their room, electrical service, room treatment, isolation devices, sound proofing, etc. ad nauseum. Their only concern is whether or not that cable has synergy within their system and provides not just a lateral change or detriment to their rig but a positive change that justifies the cost of such a cable to them.

    Tom
    Maybe your are crazy?

  4. #34

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    Perhaps. If I were to tell you how much the crossover upgrade has set my wallet back, there are probably many on this board who would agree with just that. Thing is, my bills are paid, the family is being fed and my responsibilities are being done. For me, it's not about justifying the cost to myself or anyone else for that matter. It's all about the end result as to what hits these ears of mine, sitting back and not only enjoying the music but experiencing it in pure unadulterated sonic bliss.

    Tom
    In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

    "The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction". - Kenneth Swauger

  5. #35

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    Tom

    It's all about having fun.

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by George Grand View Post
    And to be fair, there are plenty of people (learned people) who don't feel these are bottlenecks. So if you perceive them as bottlenecks, that is when you want to go out and do something about it.
    I actually raised a question in another forum about this.
    I asked about freakin expensive power cables.
    They are only 3ft long but cost over $1500 so my question was if the in-wall electric cable (I'm sure that doesn't even cost 10x less) is not of the same quality as the power cord, how can give more quality than the in-wall electric cable?
    Everyone/most mentioned that doesn't matter, it only matters from outlet to the amp.

    Boston A400, DefTech BP10,BP-2, Klipsch KG2.5,KG4,KSP-400,KSF-C5,RF3,RC3.
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  7. #37

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    [QUOTE=
    Everyone/most mentioned that doesn't matter, it only matters from outlet to the amp.
    [/QUOTE]

    That statement that it only matters from outlet to amp makes no scientific sense to me. The line cord is not designed to be a filter.

  8. #38

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    C'mon man, not every power cord cost 1500 bucks.....and the best way to solve your mystery is grab a decent one and try it yourself.

  9. #39

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    Yes and I've used after market power cables with better build/size costing around $20 to replace really thin OEM cables but no idea to measure how it affected sound.
    Not all cost $1500 but there are even more expensive ones.
    So it just a matter of how deep the pocket is as the improvement is not as linear as increase in price.

    $1454: http://www.upscaleaudio.com/products...st-Brahma.html
    $2699 to $4799: http://www.upscaleaudio.com/products...ower-Cord.html

    Boston A400, DefTech BP10,BP-2, Klipsch KG2.5,KG4,KSP-400,KSF-C5,RF3,RC3.
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  10. #40

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    LOL....my good man, there's a lot of real estate between 20 bucks and 1500.

  11. #41

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    It's your money and you should spend it any way you like.

  12. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyb View Post
    LOL....my good man, there's a lot of real estate between 20 bucks and 1500.
    True but I'm not yet convinced to spend more neither on interconnects nor on power cables.

    Well, I did pay around $50 for a pair of Taralabs interconnects and that's the most I paid.

    As someone mentioned here, upgrade has to be on the whole thing.
    If I buy a $500 interconnects and $500 power cord but the amp is not even $200, CD player is $100 etc..., I won't get full improvement so it all depends upon upstream/downstream audio gears.
    I will not use a $20 cable on a Krell but for the cheapo A/V receiver, even that's too much.

    So to bring perspective back to OP's question, if everything else is high end and only the interconnects are cheap junk, adding $10k interconnects should improve quite a lot but adding $10k interconnects to a system that doesn't even cost few hundred, improvement may be very subtle to really justify the cost.

    Quote Originally Posted by bikezappa View Post
    It's your money and you should spend it any way you like.
    +1 as they don't make them just to fool people. They actually have measured improvements so if one can afford, one can give them a listen.
    Last edited by Mystery; 08-27-2013 at 11:51 AM.

    Boston A400, DefTech BP10,BP-2, Klipsch KG2.5,KG4,KSP-400,KSF-C5,RF3,RC3.
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  13. #43

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    Price is not an indicator of quality. If you spend more money on any part it does not mean it will improve your system. So the question is, how do you evaluate that the 10k wire is better then a $150 wire? If you can not measure the differences what are you left with?

  14. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by pretzelfisch View Post
    So the question is, how do you evaluate that the 10k wire is better then a $150 wire? If you can not measure the differences what are you left with?

    Simple....your ears.

    Let me also add, nobody goes from 150 buck cables to 10 g's. Chances are they have already heard the improvements just a few more hundred bucks can provide and are already sold on how good cables can improve the sound. That said, I agree however that price is no guarantee of improved sound.
    Last edited by tonyb; 08-27-2013 at 02:08 PM.

  15. #45

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    If people would pay attention then they would know that Shunyata can measure their cables. They use two methods they developed. First is DTCD which measure how well a power cord, or other cable, can supply instantaneous current on demand. Power supplies suck current from the wall as they are called on to supply the power needed on reproducing a signal. Ordinary power cords, while capable of supplying 120v at 15a are terrible at supplying instantaneous current. They ramp up slow, and it can be measured. The DTCD difference in the ability of various power cords is measureable, and directly relates to the audible sound quality. Having this tool allows Shunyata to build cables that outperform competitors at a fraction of the cost.

    The second item is the invention of 'Zytron' technology. This cancels out the opposing voltage created by the dielectric as a signal passes through the cable. The net effect is that a square wave into the cable is a square wave out of the cable. I asked the founder of Shunyata how long was the cable they used to measure the square wave, and he said it was 150 feet.

    Both of these technologies are available on their web-site for anyone to read and understand. Obviously, there is more to cables than just being a piece of wire.

    http://www.shunyata.com/Content/technical.html

  16. #46

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    I have no problem with all of this but, personally, I can't afford huge expenditures on cables if I'm going to remain married. While I may be able to hear some difference between various interconnects it is never going to matter to my wife who will "remain" a skeptic forever and claims to hear absolutely NO difference and insists there is none! So you boys with the LARGE cables and the BIG bucks, how do "you" deal with that? I don't want to have to go Freudian here. lol

    And to tell you the "truth". The difference I hear is not stupendous, or mind blowing. I hear one. But I don't hear 10K++ worth of it. So that makes this even more difficult.

    I agree with Tom above. You cannot talk about these things in the ABSTRACT as though more spent is always better or even "necessary". Because there is an economic component. You have to budget for these expenditures and you have to do it with your "entire" family in mind. Especially when you have a young one who will be in college soon.

    Let's see! One year at an Ivy League school vs. an equal amount of astronomically priced cables. The future of my daughter or some somewhat noticeable difference in a system. That's a no brainer. Even our esteemed elders realize there are "budgetary" considerations.

    If you can "afford" multi figure tweaks to your system. No one is stopping "you"! Or criticizing you. It is your cash, after all!

    But as far as testing cables shouldn't that be an "independent" of manufacturer enterprise? I have colleagues who can easily verify "any' such technical info or declare it bogus if it is." And they have multi-million dollar labs on campus!

    cnh
    Last edited by cnh; 08-27-2013 at 02:55 PM.
    Onkyo TX-SR 805 System #1 HT AVR
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  17. #47

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    I get it now. College costs ten cable units per year.

  18. #48

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    10k cables?

    And here i am trying to squeeze a few cents out of buying multiple cables from Monoprice.

  19. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by bikezappa View Post
    It's your money and you should spend it any way you like.

    Tell 'em....."It's my money and I need it now!" lol...just saw a JG Wentworth commercial.....


    Being as broke as I am, as always, yall would laugh me off this forum if you saw what I used for IC's! I am happy with the MIT Terminator 6 speaker cable though.
    --Gary--

  20. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by halo71 View Post
    Tell 'em....."It's my money and I need it now!" lol...just saw a JG Wentworth commercial.....


    Being as broke as I am, as always, yall would laugh me off this forum if you saw what I used for IC's! I am happy with the MIT Terminator 6 speaker cable though.
    I'll likely have some up in a day or two that will be right up your alley then. That is, if $30 isn't too much for your pocket.
    Usher CP-6311, Shuguang S200MK, Shuguang S845MK, Pioneer BDP-51fd, Douglas IC's, AQ cv-8 SC's, Pangea/Douglas PC's, Epson 8100

  21. #51

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    I recently purchased power cables from Emotiva and Cullen cable. I'm still at the evaluation stage but I'll be damned if I don't believe that I can hear a difference. It's too early to post any definitive observations but, being a skeptic, I'm surprised.

    cubdog
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  22. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by pretzelfisch View Post
    Price is not an indicator of quality.
    Oh yes it is!!!! That's why Bose ROCKS
    Draggn' knee is exhilarating, 150mph wheel standers are pretty cool too


    Home Theater-7.2
    Display-SamsungPN64D8000 | Receiver-Onkyo TX-NR807 | Source-OPPOBDP-103 | Amplifiers-Emotiva; XPA-2 x2, XPA-3 | Speakers: PolkAudio; mains-RTiA9, rears-RTiA9, center-CSiA6, surrounds-FXiA6 | Sub-Epik Empire x 2 | Interconnects-Emotiva


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  23. #53

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    When your building a Audio system, you want synergy. It's really starts with the room , placement , calibration.
    Starting with the source , IC to Pre , IC to Amp , IC to speaker. If anything in this chain is out of balance or synergy , each link in the chain can't perform it's best.
    Most systems can't benefit from a 10k cable. Not many if any system can benefit from such a high dollar cable. Out of all honestly it's not the amount of money spent on a cable that matters , it's IF that cable can pass the signal 100%. Once this goal is achieved , nothing you can do can make it better.
    So I'll explain in short. If you have a 2 channel system with a nice cd player , preamp , amp and a nice pair of speakers. The ability of those speakers can lets go crazy and say they can play full bandwidth in 20 to 20 , you need a system behind it that can pass a full 20-20 signal. The Speaker wire you use to connect to these speakers needs to be able to handle the amount of current the amp can put out to power the speakers without restricting it. It also needs to be able to pass the signal coming out of the amp without losing or gaining anything along the way.
    Once this is achieved your done. Does it take 10k? I can't answer that , well I can but it's not up to me to decide IF one is going to keep going for no reason or not. Reasons after the job is done is for bragging rights , comfort , love ,or what have you. Again not for me to judge. All I will tell you is once the goal is achieved , nothing more will make any audio difference positive.
    These rules apply to all cables in a system including power cords and IC's.

    There are companies out there who go crazy with cables as there are people who will buy them. They feel a warmth inside that is achieved buy owning such high end cables. If thats what it takes , please go for it. The companies I respect on the highest level make some of these extreme cables. But I have found that their lower end cables can get the job done correctly.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.

  24. #54

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    I think we part ways on your thoughts on this Dan. You say it's not up to you to judge yet that's exactly what your doing. You've had an ear on many super high end cables have you ?

    I guess we have to agree to disagree, your certainly welcome to your perspective. I might add however that you are doing exactly what others claim that we frown on, making judgments on theory rather than experience.

  25. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnh View Post
    I have no problem with all of this but, personally, I can't afford huge expenditures on cables if I'm going to remain married. While I may be able to hear some difference between various interconnects it is never going to matter to my wife who will "remain" a skeptic forever and claims to hear absolutely NO difference and insists there is none! So you boys with the LARGE cables and the BIG bucks, how do "you" deal with that?
    Hello and good morning to you, cnh. That's a good question for many people.

    Foundation -

    For me, it was an accepted part of "me" when my wife [girlfriend at the time] met me. Unbeknownst to me at the time, my best friend had a chat with her years before we got married and told her stories about how I would make a change on the EQ, swap out a cable or perhaps move the speakers just a little bit and I would describe the change(s) in exacting detail.....when he couldn't hear any change whatsoever. He helped me without even knowing it when he mentioned that gear has been going in and out for as long as he had known me. So, it started with somewhat of a foundation that my hobby was a normal thing that is and has been associated with me for decades before I even knew her. Plus, as an interior designer, she could instantly tell what the focal point was in my bachelors living room. That was most definitely the rig.

    Planting the seed -

    My wife has always been a fan of music, albeit through a set of headphones or at best a boom box type set up. Back when we were dating, she would stop by and more often than not I would be sitting in the sweet spot enjoying tunes while dinner was cooking. When she arrived, I asked her if there was anything that she wanted to hear. It didn't matter whether I liked her selections or not, I put in whatever she wanted and we listened to it while we were cooking, eating, cleaning or whatever. I always invited her to listen to what she wanted even though some of the time she declined to put anything in. Turns out, her music tastes and mine were a lot alike and listening to music showed me that she knew quite an extensive array of music. She even knew of a lot bands and songs that I would have expected her NOT to know.

    Getting involved -

    Fast forward many years and now we are married with child, still listening to tunes whenever we can. At this point, I had discovered this thing called the "web" that allowed me to talk to folks all around the world about one of the passions that I really enjoy. I took her to an audio event that I had started and this allowed her to see first hand the sickness that abounds with the pursuit of good sound....I wasn't alone. Bless her heart, she even came to one event with our son when he was only 3 months old. Yes, I know. I'm blessed with a good wife. Anyhoo, over the years she has gotten to know my likes and dislikes when it comes to audio and she has listened to some albums of ours often enough now that she pretty much knows what they and my rig sound like.

    I love it when she comes home from work and walks into the room after a change happened [that she didn't know about] and she asks, "What happened? It sounds like crap" or "What did you do? That sounds better". I always ask her to explain what it is she hears with great interest......mostly because she doesn't know all of the audiophile talk, so she has a funny way of explaining things. It cracks me up listening to her trying to describe what it is she hears. If I made a change for the better, if she doesn't ask first, I'll invite her to sit down in the sweet spot after picking out an album or a couple of songs of her choosing.

    Music has and will be a big part of both of our lives. As for the cost of it? We have an unwritten rule that the less she knows, the better. So long as the bills are paid [along with other responsibilities], she could care less what I spend my leftovers on. Oh, she has a feeling but after all of these years? It's still a normal part of "me".

    Tom
    In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

    "The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction". - Kenneth Swauger

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    As Dana Mecum of Mecum Muscle Car auctions once famouly said "recession what recession people who could afford these cars can still afford these cars and 20 more like them. Same anology applies here, if you can afford multi K cables and it greatly improves" your sound" then all power to ya".

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    Tom, I don't even know what gear you have, but I want to hear it. Your experience shines through and I know it has to kick ass.
    Usher CP-6311, Shuguang S200MK, Shuguang S845MK, Pioneer BDP-51fd, Douglas IC's, AQ cv-8 SC's, Pangea/Douglas PC's, Epson 8100

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    I want to try out some nordost odins

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    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    We used the MIT Oracle Matrix Super HD 120 bi-wire speaker cables with the LSiM 707's and 703's at CAF. I think they run about $36,000. Sounded fantastic! If I had that kind of coin, hell yeah I'd buy them.
    Wow, you'd run a $36K pair of cables on $1.5K pair of speakers? Ugh, ok.

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    Hello, ViperZ. F1nut's personal rig does not include these speakers. Please offer him the courtesy of speaking his observations without misinformed ridicule.

    Tom
    In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

    "The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction". - Kenneth Swauger

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