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Thread: Cut backs

  1. #61

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    Add the cost of benefits to the fact that internet shopping has cut a big chunk out of local sales tax
    revenue, and you have local government cutting back. It's a two fold hit.
    "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyb View Post
    Just a thought on another aspect of this. We all know many corporations stood up in favor of this HC bill. Now many of the same ones are dumping their employee's into the exchanges. By eliminating the burden of those costs on a businesses balance sheet, they appear to be more stable thus their stock prices will go up. Investors will make money, Ceo's and other executives will meet their numbers for huge bonuses more easily. Home Depot and Walgreens as of late have announced dumping thousands of employee's into exchanges. Also don't forget these first year rates are going to be slowly increased over the next few years. The IRS themselves estimate the average family will see 20,000 dollar policies by the time this is fully implemented. The largest tax increase in our history, as said by the SCOTU. I would imagine most here consider themselves an "average" family. How many of you can afford to shell out, or lose 20k from your yearly income ? Politics aside, this bill will ruin you if you do the simple math.

    Still, I'm confused on the logic. We have a HC bill which the people who wrote it still don't understand it, the people who passed it don't know what's in it, and the people trying to implement it don't seem to grasp everything it entails either. Yet this is suppose to be the savior of our HC industry ? Kinda like a mousetrap, and we all know how a mousetrap works. You being the mouse, the IRS is the hammer, and the ACA is the cheese. Only a mouse has a choice to take that risk of getting the cheese, you however will not.

    I don't think the bill did anything to the big business plans. It just has sped up the cycle.
    They chopped out pensions, cut back vacations, and health care was next on the list anyway.
    You're lucky to have the job. Welcome to 2013.
    "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson

  3. #63

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    Next on the list to manipulate the balance sheet. A false pretense into the strength of the economy if you ask me. It gets harder and harder to figure out where we stand, as a nation, financially and economically. Everything is manipulated. From balance sheets, to stock markets, to the media, from government, the Federal reserve.....who knows the truth on our stability ? You have to be Sherlock Holmes these days to find any real truth in anything. Is that the intended purpose ?

    Speaking of "truth", as Americans we used to entrust the media to supply us with the "truth". Now even that has become manipulated. Now what ?
    Last edited by tonyb; 09-27-2013 at 09:56 AM.

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    I am 100% cool with the exchanges if they give me fairly painless access to a true choice of good quality and affordable health insurance alternatives. Shop a little, sign up, pay and go.

    Now, in NH - where I now live- the result of the insurance tumult has been that every company except one that previously offered health insurance for individuals in the state has pulled out of the market there. This doesn't bode well.
    all the best,
    mrh

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhardy6647 View Post
    I am 100% cool with the exchanges if they give me fairly painless access to a true choice of good quality and affordable health insurance alternatives. Shop a little, sign up, pay and go.

    Now, in NH - where I now live- the result of the insurance tumult has been that every company except one that previously offered health insurance for individuals in the state has pulled out of the market there. This doesn't bode well.
    C'mon man, look at your neighbors. Romneycare which is a close call to the ACA, hasn't exactly been the beaming light of success.

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    Look, in a nutshell, regardless of your politics or ideology any spending plan has to stand up to basic economic principles otherwise it won't be sustainable. In other words, in the long run someone has to pay for it. It's just that we don't want that "someone" to be us. Right ? When we finally figure out who that "someone" is.....those are the ones screaming the loudest. Everybody wants something for nothing, just nobody wants to pay for it.

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    Tony, we are the first mouse.
    The first mouse gets nailed in the trap, the second mouse gets the cheese.

    I would dare say almost no one truly knows what is in the leviathan Affordable Care Act provisions.
    For the extremely few who do know what's in it, it would be impossible for them to know the long term effects of this, IMO, monstrosity will be.

    In your link there is mention of George Orwell's 'Animal Farm' and one of my favorite quotes:
    "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others".

    This absolutely applies to the ACA.

    It has always been my opinion that this country should be able to provide a system for universal health care that is truly affordable and truly effective for EVERYONE.
    This rendition of the ACA isn't it, IMO.
    How to get it ? Simple. Make whatever system that is proposed apply to EVERYONE, including all 3 executive branches. And their staffs. Treat all "animals" as if they truly were equal.
    Then somehow, as if it were magic, a system would be developed that is functional and truly affordable.
    If the Supreme Court had known that they would be included in the ACA, perhaps their ruling of "Congress has the power to regulate/rule health care as a tax because health care is interstate commerce" then .... well, maybe their ruling might have been different.

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    Agreed Sir, but isn't it interesting in a nation where supposedly our motto is "all men are created equally", we constantly create laws that propose the opposite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrbigbluelight View Post
    Tony, we are the first mouse.
    The first mouse gets nailed in the trap, the second mouse gets the cheese.

    I would dare say almost no one truly knows what is in the leviathan Affordable Care Act provisions.
    For the extremely few who do know what's in it, it would be impossible for them to know the long term effects of this, IMO, monstrosity will be.

    In your link there is mention of George Orwell's 'Animal Farm' and one of my favorite quotes:
    "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others".

    This absolutely applies to the ACA.

    It has always been my opinion that this country should be able to provide a system for universal health care that is truly affordable and truly effective for EVERYONE.
    This rendition of the ACA isn't it, IMO.
    How to get it ? Simple. Make whatever system that is proposed apply to EVERYONE, including all 3 executive branches. And their staffs. Treat all "animals" as if they truly were equal.
    Then somehow, as if it were magic, a system would be developed that is functional and truly affordable.
    If the Supreme Court had known that they would be included in the ACA, perhaps their ruling of "Congress has the power to regulate/rule health care as a tax because health care is interstate commerce" then .... well, maybe their ruling might have been different.
    Well said sir!

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    Will all that don't care for the ACA or the current administation in general please sound off about how you felt about your health care before 2009?

    Myself, I grew up the son of an UAW auto worker so I always had good insurance coverage until I was 18. Once I started working the coverage offered by my employers was good and generally was free to me or a small $40-$150 a month cost for my family.

    Today, I pay $267.47 per pay period(2xMonth) for my family of four. That totals $6419.28 a year!!! Also, the deductables are more. While I'm still learning more about ACA and don't have a firm stand one way or the other...i know for a fact that something needs to change.

    You guys that are jumping up and down about Obama....Hell, I've been jumping up and down waay before he took office. I know I'm not alone?
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  11. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by WLDock View Post
    Will all that don't care for the ACA or the current administation in general please sound off about how you felt about your health care before 2009?

    Myself, I grew up the son of an UAW auto worker so I always had good insurance coverage until I was 18. Once I started working the coverage offered by my employers was good and generaly was free to me or a small $40-$150 a month cost for my family.

    Today, I pay $267.47 per pay period(2xMonth) for my family of four. That totals $6419.28 a year. Also, the deductables are more.

    You guys that are jumping up and down about Obama....Hell, I've been jumping up and down waay before he took office. I know I'm not alone?
    Mine would be twice that. There is a reason my wife isn't covered and why we can't have another kid.
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    watchdog.org

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    Todd Blome's phone has been ringing off the hook this week with clients seeking tax advice after learning they'll get a "shocking increase" in their health insurance premiums when Obamacare's health insurance exchanges begin operating.




    Letters have been landing in mailboxes all over Nebraska explaining the impact Obamacare will have on people who buy insurance coverage on their own, rather than through work.

    Blome, a Lincoln accountant, understands: He got a letter, too.

    Blue Cross Blue Shield Nebraska informed Blome his health care plan will terminate at year's end, and if he wants to move to a similar plan his new premium will go up 65 percent, costing him nearly $4,000 more per year.

    He distinctly remembers President Obama looking into TV cameras and assuring Americans they would be able to keep their doctors, and policies.

    His letter says otherwise.

    "Stupid me, I took the president literally


    I think many took them seriously.....and that's the problem. You can't believe a word that comes out of their mouths.....any of them. It doesn't matter what side of the isle you sit, eventually we all get that feeling of being duped. That has to change, and integrity has to be restored.

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    Damn, thats steep. That is my fear.....not what it cost today but what it will cost in 5-10 years. The current state sucks in a major way, IMO! The costs of Hospital Care is absurd.

    My income in no way shape or form has followed the rise in healthcare cost nor overall inflation.
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  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyb View Post

    watchdog.org

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    ...

    My wife got the letter as well, as we purchase her insurance direct from BCBS, it's cheaper than adding her to my policy. It said the current plan would terminate at the end of the year, and she would need a different plan. In my wife's case, the coverage she will get is a little better, and the rate goes down about $20 a month. So it's not an increase for everybody.

    She just landed a new job, and they will provide her insurance, so we will be cancelling the policy Nov. 1st anyways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick88 View Post
    I voted for the one on the left

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    Benefits are dead and dying anyway you look at it.
    I guess we are all going to just have to deal with it.
    When the jobs went offshore, so did all the wealth.
    That's the real trickle down deal right there. Give it 10 more
    years and I'll be standing out by the 7-11 doing day labor.
    "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson

  17. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by sucks2beme View Post
    Benefits are dead and dying anyway you look at it.
    I guess we are all going to just have to deal with it.
    When the jobs went offshore, so did all the wealth.
    That's the real trickle down deal right there. Give it 10 more
    years and I'll be standing out by the 7-11 doing day labor.

    Maybe....I guess if you subscribe to, or accept that theory, again....do the math. If benefits and good jobs are leaving us, and nobody seems to care about the influx of cheap labor from the southern border, whats that say for the quality of life for millions of people in the near future ? Doesn't simple logic say to then change course ? Not a hard choice if you ask me, doesn't get anymore basic than that. Simple reasoning dictates actions have outcomes. If the perceived outcome is not desired, change the actions, change the path. Have we become that self absorbed, that self serving, that polarized that we can't do simple reasoning or simple math anymore ? If so, that doesn't bode well for the future of our species.

  18. #78

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    The motto is, greed is good. We are looking at a 1901 approach to business.
    The jobs went to the lowest cost labor. What's left? They want all imports to flow
    through Mexico and be hauled by cheap Mexican truckers. All office work is going to India.
    Call centers go to the Philippines or Vietnam. And all US workers will be working part
    time for $8 an hour. Unless there is a "American spring" kind of event. don't expect it to change.
    "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson

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    If true, it ticks me off that certain religions are exempt from ACA/Obamacare. What happened to separation of church and state?

    I'll admit that I don't know all of the ramifications of it yet either, but it needs to be an all-or-none approach.... all religions, all races, everyone, including our elected politicians. No more of their sweetheart politician b.s. deals/exemptions! They need to live with the laws that they pass and mandate to the masses!

    Taking that one step further, are Muslims exempt from car insurance too, because it's "gambling" (the reason stated for being exempt from ACA)? In most states (if not all by now), it's mandatory to provide proof of insurance to register your vehicle. Or do the Muslims have a loophole for that too? Which leads me to what really bugs me about this:

    If you own a car, you're mandated to buy car insurance. Don't want to pay? Ok, fine, don't own a car. It's your choice.

    If you buy a home and have a mortgage, you're mandated to buy homeowners insurance. Don't want to pay? Ok, fine, don't own a home. It's your choice.

    If you are alive, now you're mandated to buy medical insurance. Don't want to pay? What now... kill yourself or be a criminal? This law is unconstitutional, plain and simple. It's a tax for being alive.


    The real question is, how do us little guys fight these decisions that are being made on Capital Hill? Big business and Wall Street bankers have their ear, we don't. My only suggestion is to send them a message by voting ALL the bums out, EVERY election. Sure, you might get rid of some good apples, but it will get the career politicians out of office.

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    I don't what the problem is. I just put my billing address as 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.....
    I refuse to argue with idiots, because people can't tell the DIFFERENCE!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sucks2beme View Post
    The motto is, greed is good. We are looking at a 1901 approach to business.
    The jobs went to the lowest cost labor. What's left? They want all imports to flow
    through Mexico and be hauled by cheap Mexican truckers. All office work is going to India.
    Call centers go to the Philippines or Vietnam. And all US workers will be working part
    time for $8 an hour. Unless there is a "American spring" kind of event. don't expect it to change.
    Good post, but greed is good.....to an extent of course. It's the overly greedy that pisses people off. The no holds barred, rake 'em over the coals, squeeze them until they bleed....then squeeze some more, type of greed. Wouldn't it be safe to say government has become just as, if not more, greedy than their corporate counter parts ? Yet we criticize CEO's but say zilch about the 500+ boneheads making excessive greed top priority. Some may even suggest corporations have a moral obligation to "give back", and lots of them in fact do but is it really their obligation ? Doesn't those you send to Washington have an obligation to work on your behalf ? Does not obligations fall under morality ? Then we should be working on promoting the morality of our young men and woman, no? We should send to Washington those who represent some traces of morality. But we don't do we ? We live by 60 second sound bites and what rests on the front page everyday without really knowing whats going on.

    From talking to friends and neighbors, it saddens me to hear most are just tired of it all or simply don't care one way or the other. Yet they complain the loudest when things turn south for them. For decades we have had it good.....too good, and complacency has set in. That's the period of time when you lose the most as is evident today. History tells us time and time again that complacency is one of the final steps in the downfall of any civilization. It also tells us 200 years is roughly the life span of most too. We are over that mark and complacency surely has set in. This freedom thing, this "American experiment" as some like to call it, takes work....every day. We were founded by men who wanted to create something unique in a world of Kings and peasants. From where I sit though, some are allowing that Kings and peasants mentality to take hold again. For me, the key to this all succeeding is summed up in 2 words, Personal Responsibility. YOU are responsible for yourself and your family, not your neighbor, the state, or the federal government. You are responsible and dictate your own lifestyle, what you eat, your health, saving your money and earning that money. Once you give up that responsibility to a centralized government, like we are doing today, you in essence have wasted the last 240 years and have delivered yourself and your children back into the lands of the Kings and Peasants. Just my opinion of course, yours may vary.

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    Tony and I really don't disagree much on this. The only real point of disagreement I may have with some above is that this program is not real socialism. It can't be when the most will keep what they have, the rest will have their hours cut by their benevolent masters of industry, and those without will have to scrounge whatever healthcare remains in their state as mhardy describes (although to be fair, tax free N.H. is hardly a model for "giving" and "compassion", lol--it has become more and more a haven for rather well off Mass residents trying to escape taxes in their home state); it allows insurance companies the ability to scramble around and reconfigure themselves so as to still make sure they can "profit".

    A true socialist program would be like welfare, Medicare, Social Security and even Military Defense, where almost everything is paid for by state redistribution of citizen taxes? Every "entitlement" program is a social program. Do you guys who are avid socialist naysayers from the "cold war" period hate all entitlements? Do you think that EVERY entitlement would do better "privatized"? If you do then you don't live on the same planet that I do because greed and corruption is certainly RAMPANT in the so-called FREE MARKET! lol And you're holding on to a pipe dream!

    The main problem with Mr. Obama is that he tried to play "centrist", adopt that Romney Mass program that gives a LOT OF WIGGLE room to the people who are SUPPOSED to be competing for your business. TOO MUCH WIGGLE room. And if you're going to go with a program like that, you just have to go single payer and full Gov't. (I know you guys HATE that, but any half-assed program that tries to strike a middle ground, like the present one, is too full of contradictions--allows too many clever people too many options to CHEAT or work the program).

    So until we actually have a socialist program. Which we DON'T, far from it! Let's keep the "S" word in our pocket, shall we. I ought to know what "socialism" looks like since I've spent 3 1/2 years in China and an entire lifetime studying it? This is NOT to say I am a Chinese sympathizer. I am not. But there are certainly "some" things that system can do that makes our free system look impotent. And the reason is because they have a strong central Gov't. And the people are not screaming bloody murder for the most part. In fact, reforms, a more open economy and slow generational changes in leadership may lead to a more Democratic China in the future. History is a hard thing to predict. There may come a time, in the, near future when the model will not be a Democratically free but horribly DIVIDED nation with free markets, but a strong centralized state with a freer citizenry and free markets that can be reigned in by the state if they decide to wreck havoc on the National Economy without having a self-serving politician filibuster every time some "pet" belief they have is violated.

    To recap. Obamacare. Problematic, yes! But NOT for the reasons most people give, i.e., too much Gov't. The problem, too "little Gov't" too much healthcare industry "freedom"!

    As a student of history, the most workable solutions I have seen involve Gov't restraint on unbridled Capitalism combined with a viable tax structure on those who can "afford" it to redistribute resources for everyone. The caveat, you can't have immoral politicians as the majority. When everyone is screaming bloody murder and they're also "on the take", receiving gifts, income, stock options from oil, and the health, pharmaceutical industry, etc. Can you really "trust" anything that "any" politician is talking about...anything? What a bunch of jokers! We're supposed to believe these servants of the "market" who we "elected" so they can serve not us but "profits"? lol

    Democrats = Spineless opportunists who rarely do the right thing. Republicans = Endlessly talking about God and Country while collecting WELFARE from large corporate interests and serving "them" rather than "us"!

    This country needs a party of the "people"! Where is it?


    cnh
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    Quote Originally Posted by cnh View Post
    Tony and I really don't disagree much on this. The only real point of disagreement I may have with some above is that this program is not real socialism. It can't be when the most will keep what they have, the rest will have their hours cut by their benevolent masters of industry, and those without will have to scrounge whatever healthcare remains in their state as mhardy describes (although to be fair, tax free N.H. is hardly a model for "giving" and "compassion", lol--it has become more and more a haven for rather well off Mass residents trying to escape taxes in their home state); it allows insurance companies the ability to scramble around and reconfigure themselves so as to still make sure they can "profit".

    A true socialist program would be like welfare, Medicare, Social Security and even Military Defense, where almost everything is paid for by state redistribution of citizen taxes? Every "entitlement" program is a social program. Do you guys who are avid socialist naysayers from the "cold war" period hate all entitlements? Do you think that EVERY entitlement would do better "privatized"? If you do then you don't live on the same planet that I do because greed and corruption is certainly RAMPANT in the so-called FREE MARKET! lol And you're holding on to a pipe dream!

    The main problem with Mr. Obama is that he tried to play "centrist", adopt that Romney Mass program that gives a LOT OF WIGGLE room to the people who are SUPPOSED to be competing for your business. TOO MUCH WIGGLE room. And if you're going to go with a program like that, you just have to go single payer and full Gov't. (I know you guys HATE that, but any half-assed program that tries to strike a middle ground, like the present one, is too full of contradictions--allows too many clever people too many options to CHEAT or work the program).

    So until we actually have a socialist program. Which we DON'T, far from it! Let's keep the "S" word in our pocket, shall we. I ought to know what "socialism" looks like since I've spent 3 1/2 years in China and an entire lifetime studying it? This is NOT to say I am a Chinese sympathizer. I am not. But there are certainly "some" things that system can do that makes our free system look impotent. And the reason is because they have a strong central Gov't. And the people are not screaming bloody murder for the most part. In fact, reforms, a more open economy and slow generational changes in leadership may lead to a more Democratic China in the future. History is a hard thing to predict. There may come a time, in the, near future when the model will not be a Democratically free but horribly DIVIDED nation with free markets, but a strong centralized state with a freer citizenry and free markets that can be reigned in by the state if they decide to wreck havoc on the National Economy without having a self-serving politician filibuster every time some "pet" belief they have is violated.

    To recap. Obamacare. Problematic, yes! But NOT for the reasons most people give, i.e., too much Gov't. The problem, too "little Gov't" too much healthcare industry "freedom"!

    As a student of history, the most workable solutions I have seen involve Gov't restraint on unbridled Capitalism combined with a viable tax structure on those who can "afford" it to redistribute resources for everyone. The caveat, you can't have immoral politicians as the majority. When everyone is screaming bloody murder and they're also "on the take", receiving gifts, income, stock options from oil, and the health, pharmaceutical industry, etc. Can you really "trust" anything that "any" politician is talking about...anything? What a bunch of jokers! We're supposed to believe these servants of the "market" who we "elected" so they can serve not us but "profits"? lol

    Democrats = Spineless opportunists who rarely do the right thing. Republicans = Endlessly talking about God and Country while collecting WELFARE from large corporate interests and serving "them" rather than "us"!

    This country needs a party of the "people"! Where is it?


    cnh
    Drivel.
    Leftist drivel.

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    Cnh,

    Good post my friend and as usual I respect your perspective. I find it problematic however to try and legislate morality to a larger degree as some propose. The answer to me anyway is you wouldn't need so much legislation in that regard if you concentrated on building better men....and woman. Again, I liken the whole thing to a doctor who treats the symptoms but forgoes the disease. You can't decry morality in society when at every turn government attacks it or turns a blind eye for profit and cronyism. We must jusge those in power by their actions, not their words.

    As far as the ACA being socialism, I would beg to differ. Socialism isn't some switch you just turn on and one day poof....now we have it. It creeps in slowly, a piece of legislation at a time as to not draw attention to itself. Forcing people to buy something they may not want....c'mon man, ya gotta give me that one. Don't bring up car insurance or house insurance either, you don't have to drive and you don't have to own a home. Can I not "have to" buy health insurance ? No....not without a penalty/tax. Whats next ? You have to buy an electric car......appliances that meet certain energy usages ? In my mind, freedom comes with an inherit right to be left alone. To choose how to live your life, to be free from undue persecution, excessive taxation, and discriminatory behavior. Of course society in general needs some leeway to make laws so that everyone is on the same page but not unnecessary ones. How about we work on curing the disease, rather than keep treating the symptoms.

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