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  1. #31

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    The best advice I can offer you is to really, really try to borrow a good amp [a Carver TFM-35 will do, nothing extravagant really needed for this] and just listen at low volume [or your normal volume] and come back and tell us what you observed. Don't come up with excuses on why you can't get this done. If you are on other forums, there has GOT to be someone near you or someone willing to drive to your house to let you get your ear on. All I'm suggesting is that you put forth your best effort and try.

    If you do follow this advice, you can thank me later. If you don't, then you might as well consider this discussion mute. Numbers won't tell you how something sounds and nothing we say will ever change that fact. Either way, happy listening. Oh, and you do not have to be an audiophile to hear the difference. Far from it in fact.

    Tom
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  2. #32

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    All watts are not created equally eh...I beg to differ.

    My first piece of decent quality gear, a Harman Kardon HK 3375 receiver, rated at a mere 75x2 into 8ohms, doesn't sound like much eh ? Ask my buddy who at the time (10ish years ago) had a Sony AVR, rated at 110x2 into 8 ohm stereo mode feeding big Cerwins, sounded...good, until one day I brought the 3375 over and it kinda well, shook the walls harder than he ever imagine, that's because the 3375 was and still is a AMPlifier, which brings me to my current main receiver (receivers yet not lacking a lot) a HK 3490 120x2 into 8ohms, drives my RTiA7s quite well, but I know they can do better, a LOT better, which is why I'm currently in search of a nice amplifier, saving my dollars where I can. I'm thinking used Parasound or Adcom, trying to get somewhere around 250+ and high current, you know, that AMPlifier portion of the equation.

    When I was auditioning speakers up until the point I picked up my A7s I was wanting, yes wanting the A9s or LSiM 705s, both of which I knew for a fact I couldn't power correctly at the time, did I make a concession? in a sense yes and in a sense no. I can currently enjoy my new loudspeakers until I can grab a nice amp for the A7s, yank out a pair of pins on the 3490 or 3375 and use either for a preamp until I can afford that piece and wake the ever loving tar out of the A7s. In my brain and from taking to heart posts by the likes of DSkip and F1Nut, my current system is upgradeable a piece at a time. Future expansion from prior choices in gear will allow this.

    Jester, please open your mind, the folks here have seen it, done it, got the t-shirt and know better. I trust their input far more than any preconceived notion I might come up with.
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  3. #33

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    F1nut- You didn't answer anything. "The amp" is your answer. What about the amp? I've already shown it's putting out the same clean undistorted wattage using either. So what is it that's different? Never mind. I don't need an answer.
    The POWER SUPPLY is the answer that you keep ignoring. Your AVR can only put out 80wpc with 7 channels driven and will choke trying to drive 4 ohm loads, which all indicate the power supply is lacking. The reason it's lacking is an AVR is a compromise. A dedicated 7 channel amp rated at your 110wpc (2 channels driven) AVR will deliver 110wpc all channels driven and if it's one of the better 7 channel amps it will double down into 4 ohm loads. All of that tranlates into the capable ability to delivery superior sound at low volume levels (1 watt), with more detail, clarity, finesse, bass control, more precise imaging, a bigger sound stage, with shimmering highs and lush mids.
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  4. #34

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    To the OP-

    It's been a long time since I studied physics, yet- I am still confident that gravity exists and will work to pull me back to earth if I jump. I don't lose sleep over not understanding every detail or mathematical equation which points to such actions being true. Never a doubt each and every time.

    IF you really want to understand the scientific part of the equation then it's up to you to follow a path to an EE degree or something along those lines. It would be rather absurd to only study the results of testing without ever listening to music, (not test tones) thru various amplification devices.

    There on many on this board who can explain their position and reasoning better than I, but why should anyone if your mind is already made up and the bias you bring leaves no flexibility to accept answers that require more than the mere examination of the testing result numbers? If you are open to at least listening to your system thru a loaner amp then post your location and it would be likely that a board member would be willing to bring an amp for you to try. If you are within 2 hrs of me, I'd be happy to bring a couple of amps over for you to hear for yourself.

  5. #35

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    Ok....first line of my post up there...please omit the word NOT...brain and fingers not working together...
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  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jestered View Post

    2. It sounds better at any volume level. This is where I am having a hard time confirming this to be true. I have a Pioneer Elite VSX-53 AVR. It's spec'd at 110 WPC, but bench tested to put out 81 watts when driving 7 channels (what I'm doing). That basically has me putting out somewhere around 88 decibels, at the listening position, when supplying only 1 watt of power to my speakers. 10 watts going to the speakers put it around 98 decibels. The full 81 watts has me sitting at about 108 decibels. I would never listen to my set up at that level. I honestly would never listen to it at 88 decibels (1 watt of power). So, I'm using less than 1 watt of power at any given time when watching/listening to my setup.

    !

    At what frequency was this bench test performed? Did they also measure for power supply sag? Was it 1KHz test tones or 20Hz to 20KHz test tones? In the real world of audio, frequencies vary in music, the range depends on what type music you listen to. IF the bench test was performed at 1KHz, you can expect a 30-40% drop in output at 20KHz.

    Transients is another key word. That's where a collection of sounds will require much more wattage to produce faithfully. The higher the headroom of the amp, the better quality the sound at lower to higher volume levels when these transients occur.

    Ain't no kool aid to drink; fact is an amp with reserve greater than you'll ever use will sound better than an amp that runs out of current.

    Some reading, more out there.

    http://www.meyersound.com/support/papers/amp_power.htm
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  7. #37

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    Don't forget go upgrade your power cord, interconnect cables, and speaker cables to get the best sound out of your watts.

  8. #38

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    I think we're getting a second serving of Ravioli!

  9. #39

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    OP gets it, the other guy dont want to get it or is just a troll.
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  10. #40

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    it was proven a long time age you can have two different amps that measure the same and they still sound different.
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  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by thsmith View Post
    OP gets it, the other guy dont want to get it or is just a troll.
    Right, after rereading the thread my comments were meant to be directed towards Jestered not the op sky- sorry for the confusion.

    Yes this thread has the signature of troll all over it. I think our responses have been a waste, but only Jestered can decide if he wants to hear for himself the difference. If not then there is no point going any further.

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    Getting the popcorn ready now.
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  13. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jestered View Post
    F1nut- You didn't answer anything. "The amp" is your answer. What about the amp? I've already shown it's putting out the same clean undistorted wattage using either. So what is it that's different? Never mind. I don't need an answer.
    No you didn't you just quoted another, What you didn't show was the current output between the AVR and the Amp
    Amp 99% of the time will put out more current WITH those watts

    Quote Originally Posted by Jestered View Post
    Tom- I appreciate your responses. I didn't get the answer I was hoping, but at least you provided some good information without the need to feel like you had to get all worked up about it.
    correct you want to hear that your set up is the best....Well it is we all wish we had your gear

    Quote Originally Posted by Jestered View Post
    I'll move on. It's a shame. I thought this Polk forum was a little different, but apparently not. The same "agree with the masses and don't question us or else" attitude that every other forum has.
    It's a MUCH better forum than any other on the net it's too bad you are too blind and deaf to absorb some of the best minds on the planet.

    just let me say this the power supply in the AVR was never meant to bank as much energy on reserve as an Amp. Most Amps have a good deal of headroom most AVR's do not. Notice your AVR has say 120wpc in 2 channel and 80 in 5..Well an amp will have 200wpc weather you drive 2 or 5 that is the power supply that F1 speaks of. The power supply in the AVR was NEVER designed to do 120X5 that is why it drops so much down to 80wpc....

  14. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by pitdogg2 View Post
    No you didn't you just quoted another, What you didn't show was the current output between the AVR and the Amp
    Amp 99% of the time will put out more current WITH those watts


    correct you want to hear that your set up is the best....Well it is we all wish we had your gear



    It's a MUCH better forum than any other on the net it's too bad you are too blind and deaf to absorb some of the best minds on the planet.

    just let me say this the power supply in the AVR was never meant to bank as much energy on reserve as an Amp. Most Amps have a good deal of headroom most AVR's do not. Notice your AVR has say 120wpc in 2 channel and 80 in 5..Well an amp will have 200wpc weather you drive 2 or 5 that is the power supply that F1 speaks of. The power supply in the AVR was NEVER designed to do 120X5 that is why it drops so much down to 80wpc....
    I think the whole WPC is a moot point no?Considering most people like myself only use 1 watt or so most of the time...But the current and having the ability to crank up your system without having to worry about distortion is a def advantage over any avr.As of now I'm def looking into an amp, but I don't expect to go with crazy wattage rather just some decent quality built amp like outlaw.

    Edit-man we Canadians get shafted so much when it comes to buying technology, the pricing and choices is just so far off from our US counter parts.Anyone from Canada with some helpful buying advice on AMPS.
    Last edited by skky; 10-15-2013 at 01:05 PM.

  15. #45

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    Wow. This has actually become quite amusing! I'm not even interested in the AVR/AMP debate, which should have been a simple discussion, but I'll play along.

    Quote Originally Posted by pitdogg2 View Post
    No you didn't you just quoted another,
    Not sure what you're referring to here. Are you talking about the bench test being for a VSX-52 and I have a VSX-53? If so, they're the same receiver with the same parts, but the VSX-52 had a few things stripped out of it. So the bench tests should be exactly the same between the two receivers. Mine is a higher end model, so we can add some performance to it if you'd prefer.

    Quote Originally Posted by pitdogg2 View Post
    What you didn't show was the current output between the AVR and the Amp
    Amp 99% of the time will put out more current WITH those watts
    I posted the link to the results so you could have checked to see if that was included. I didn't mention it because it makes absolutely no difference in the equipment I was referring to. My AVR and the Emotiva UPA-500 both produce 80 WPC, and it doesn't matter how much current it took to achieve that.

    Current is measured in volts. 1 volt is the amount of current needed to push 1 amp through 1 ohm (resistance). 1 watt is the power that's created when pushing 1 amp through 1 ohm of resistance. That is what creates 1 watt. If you're telling me that a dedicated amp creates better sound quality because there is more "current", you're wrong. Keep in mind, current is the amount of force, or push, it takes to push amps through the amount of resistance in the line. So, if it's actually true that a dedicated amp is using more current, to produce the same wattage, that only means that it also has more resistance and needs more current to produce the same wattage, which I doubt is the case. And even so, it doesn't make any difference because the outcome is still the same wattage/power at the other end.

    Your current comment would only make sense when talking about a more powerful amp over the AVR I'm using, and I've said more than once that both the amp that I was looking at, and the AVR that I have, both create the same watts, regardless of how much current it takes either to create that wattage.

    Quote Originally Posted by pitdogg2 View Post
    correct you want to hear that your set up is the best....Well it is we all wish we had your gear
    I'm not even sure where that came from. My setup is clearly posted in my signature. It's a nice setup, but far from what a lot of people are rocking on here. My setup is for me and my family and I could care less if people think it's junk or anything else. I'm envious of a lot of the HT setups that a lot of people have here, but I'm happy with what I have. Your comment can't be backed by anything I've said and doesn't make any sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by pitdogg2 View Post
    It's a MUCH better forum than any other on the net it's too bad you are too blind and deaf to absorb some of the best minds on the planet.
    Great! So I'll add blind and deaf to the growing list. Outside of this thread, I've thoroughly enjoyed this forum. There's a lot of knowledgeable people in this audio/video area. To say that they are some of the "best minds on the planet" is a far stretch. Knowledgeable in the field, sure, but best minds on the planet... No offense anyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by pitdogg2 View Post
    just let me say this the power supply in the AVR was never meant to bank as much energy on reserve as an Amp. Most Amps have a good deal of headroom most AVR's do not. Notice your AVR has say 120wpc in 2 channel and 80 in 5..Well an amp will have 200wpc weather you drive 2 or 5 that is the power supply that F1 speaks of. The power supply in the AVR was NEVER designed to do 120X5 that is why it drops so much down to 80wpc....
    If you took the time to read what I have said from the beginning, you'd realize I was always talking about an 80WPC AVR and an 80WPC stand-alone amp. The fact that there's some in this thread that just now figured out that I'm not even the OP just goes to show how quick people are to jump in without actually reading what was said.
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  16. #46

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    Ill let other more technical minds go into the details, but higher current generally means better sound. Like I referenced earlier, my 16 watt marantz will annihilate the 80 watt pioneer.
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  17. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by DSkip View Post
    Ill let other more technical minds go into the details, but higher current generally means better sound. Like I referenced earlier, my 16 watt marantz will annihilate the 80 watt pioneer.
    Stil too many people that think they are in bliss with their wattifiers...forgetting the other side of the equation...amplification.
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  18. #48

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    I'm out of this conversation. Good Lord, help this man. He has much to learn.....and I'm not talking about the OP.

    Tom
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  19. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jestered View Post
    Wow. This has actually become quite amusing! I'm not even interested in the AVR/AMP debate, which should have been a simple discussion, but I'll play along.



    Not sure what you're referring to here. Are you talking about the bench test being for a VSX-52 and I have a VSX-53? If so, they're the same receiver with the same parts, but the VSX-52 had a few things stripped out of it. So the bench tests should be exactly the same between the two receivers. Mine is a higher end model, so we can add some performance to it if you'd prefer.



    I posted the link to the results so you could have checked to see if that was included. I didn't mention it because it makes absolutely no difference in the equipment I was referring to. My AVR and the Emotiva UPA-500 both produce 80 WPC, and it doesn't matter how much current it took to achieve that.

    Current is measured in volts. 1 volt is the amount of current needed to push 1 amp through 1 ohm (resistance). 1 watt is the power that's created when pushing 1 amp through 1 ohm of resistance. That is what creates 1 watt. If you're telling me that a dedicated amp creates better sound quality because there is more "current", you're wrong. Keep in mind, current is the amount of force, or push, it takes to push amps through the amount of resistance in the line. So, if it's actually true that a dedicated amp is using more current, to produce the same wattage, that only means that it also has more resistance and needs more current to produce the same wattage, which I doubt is the case. And even so, it doesn't make any difference because the outcome is still the same wattage/power at the other end.

    Your current comment would only make sense when talking about a more powerful amp over the AVR I'm using, and I've said more than once that both the amp that I was looking at, and the AVR that I have, both create the same watts, regardless of how much current it takes either to create that wattage.



    I'm not even sure where that came from. My setup is clearly posted in my signature. It's a nice setup, but far from what a lot of people are rocking on here. My setup is for me and my family and I could care less if people think it's junk or anything else. I'm envious of a lot of the HT setups that a lot of people have here, but I'm happy with what I have. Your comment can't be backed by anything I've said and doesn't make any sense.



    Great! So I'll add blind and deaf to the growing list. Outside of this thread, I've thoroughly enjoyed this forum. There's a lot of knowledgeable people in this audio/video area. To say that they are some of the "best minds on the planet" is a far stretch. Knowledgeable in the field, sure, but best minds on the planet... No offense anyone.



    If you took the time to read what I have said from the beginning, you'd realize I was always talking about an 80WPC AVR and an 80WPC stand-alone amp. The fact that there's some in this thread that just now figured out that I'm not even the OP just goes to show how quick people are to jump in without actually reading what was said.
    Very sound argument, not much to argue with from the logic point of view.All I can say is maybe you can try out a real amp, and then come back with your result?Although I myself have not done so, but it's hard to deny something every else seems to have experience as a placebo.Emo has a 30 day trial, lucky you are from the states and can test it out so why not give it a try?Would be more resourceful than trying to convince all these people who've actually done it.I can't lie I was and still am very skeptical but surely hundreds and thousands of people can't all be wrong?

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    Where are you located skky?

    You are welcome to drop by and hear the difference for yourself. I am experiencing it right now.

    As for the new court jester's comments... there is nothing "sound" about them.
    Last edited by nooshinjohn; 10-15-2013 at 09:40 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post
    Where are you located skky?

    You are welcome to drop by and hear the difference for yourself. I am experiencing it right now.

    As for the new court jester's comments... there is noting "sound" about them.
    This offer stands at my place as well for anyone who thinks a watt is a watt.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSkip View Post
    This offer stands at my place as well for anyone who thinks a watt is a watt.
    Offer stands at my place too, granted I do have a receiver, it's no slouch. but it's 45 amps will prove a point.
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  23. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post
    Where are you located skky?

    You are welcome to drop by and hear the difference for yourself. I am experiencing it right now.

    As for the new court jester's comments... there is noting "sound" about them.
    Please enlighten me. I'm talking basic Ohm's Law. Not Ohm's Idea, or Santa, or unicorns.

    I have always wanted to know simply how this is happening, not that it was not possible. Before getting a real answer that could be tested and proved, all of a sudden I've been jumped on, called names, and attacked. I'm game!

    Please enlighten me how current, you know that Ohm's Law thing I explained doesn't apply to you. And if there's something outside of that, that can provide a real world difference watt-for-watt, please let me know. I'm still interested in a dedicated amp, but I prefer to learn then buy, not the other way around. As someone mentioned that I don't know what this hobby is about, well I think I know exactly what it's about. If I wanted to follow blindly I would simply call some guy I don't even know and let him determine what goes into my cabinet. Instead, I'd prefer to learn why I'm putting equipment in my cabinet and how and why. Isn't that what this hobby is all about?
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  24. #54

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    PM sent with my ACTUAL phone number so I can explain things personally. Can't get any better than that. If you want to learn, I could even perhaps get one of the very best in the world to call and discuss it with you. You just need to actually want to learn.
    HT Setup... Pioneer Elite SC-37, Polk Audio SDA-SRS 1.2TL's , Oppo BDP 93
    Two Channel... Carver Statement 450~1 Vacuum Tube Monoblocks, Dodd Mid-line Tube Linestage with Psvane 12Ax7 tubes, Pioneer Pdd 9Mk II SACD Player, Yamaha PX-3 Turntable with Sumiko BPS EvoIII, Polk Audio SDA-SRS 1.2TLs.


    "Everything we have fought for has been lost, and everything we fought against, we have become...."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jestered View Post
    Why not explain it where others that have the same question can get that information. I don't need you to explain to me how "current", which is what my response was about, can change the characteristics of a speaker, even at the same wattage. Current changes the speed of flow of electrons. It doesn't add anything to what's going out. The final power of what's received is the same.

    And if this is some sort of intimidation attempt, I'm sorry, but it's not going to work.
    Seriously????
    It has been explained ten ways to Sunday for you. It must be "intimidating to actually hear an explanation that will answer all your questions rather than to simply hide behind a keyboard and remain ignorant.

    Good day sir, I am done here.
    HT Setup... Pioneer Elite SC-37, Polk Audio SDA-SRS 1.2TL's , Oppo BDP 93
    Two Channel... Carver Statement 450~1 Vacuum Tube Monoblocks, Dodd Mid-line Tube Linestage with Psvane 12Ax7 tubes, Pioneer Pdd 9Mk II SACD Player, Yamaha PX-3 Turntable with Sumiko BPS EvoIII, Polk Audio SDA-SRS 1.2TLs.


    "Everything we have fought for has been lost, and everything we fought against, we have become...."

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    Your 1 watt would be great with a loudspeaker at 104dB sensitivity.

    http://www.chuckhawks.com/speaker_spl_amp_power.htm
    Last edited by SCompRacer; 10-15-2013 at 10:16 PM.
    Make yourself necessary to someone. Ralph Waldo Emerson

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    Quote Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post
    Seriously????
    It has been explained ten ways to Sunday for you. It must be "intimidating to actually hear an explanation that will answer all your questions rather than to simply hide behind a keyboard and remain ignorant.

    Good day sir, I am done here.
    What would you have said? Why would I need to talk to you on the phone after your condescending interactions through this thread? I appreciate the offer, but had no idea what your true intentions were in the PM. And my response to that being publicized doesn't bother me at all. I said what I said and I'll stand behind it.

    If there was any real intention of help in your PM, I apologize, and can do that publicly without needing someone to put it out there without my knowing, which again I could care less about. The bottom line is that you're one of the people that have hated on me, so why would I want to chat it up with you? Especially without knowing what the real intent behind it was?
    Samsung 65" ES8000 LED
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    Polk RTiA5's - Front Towers
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    Polk RT15i's - Side Surrounds
    Polk FXiA4's - Rear Surrounds
    SVS PB-1000 - Subwoofer
    URC MX5000 - Remote

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    Quote Originally Posted by SCompRacer View Post
    Your 1 watt would be great with a loudspeaker at 104dB sensitivity.

    http://www.chuckhawks.com/speaker_spl_amp_power.htm
    Another one that apparently has no clue what the actual question was and has not taken the time to actually read.
    Samsung 65" ES8000 LED
    Pioneer Elite VSX-53
    Polk RTiA5's - Front Towers
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    Polk RT15i's - Side Surrounds
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    SVS PB-1000 - Subwoofer
    URC MX5000 - Remote

  29. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jestered View Post
    What would you have said? Why would I need to talk to you on the phone after your condescending interactions through this thread? I appreciate the offer, but had no idea what your true intentions were in the PM. And my response to that being publicized doesn't bother me at all. I said what I said and I'll stand behind it.

    If there was any real intention of help in your PM, I apologize, and can do that publicly without needing someone to put it out there without my knowing, which again I could care less about. The bottom line is that you're one of the people that have hated on me, so why would I want to chat it up with you? Especially without knowing what the real intent behind it was?
    Actually, I was the only one in this thread you agreed with.
    HT Setup... Pioneer Elite SC-37, Polk Audio SDA-SRS 1.2TL's , Oppo BDP 93
    Two Channel... Carver Statement 450~1 Vacuum Tube Monoblocks, Dodd Mid-line Tube Linestage with Psvane 12Ax7 tubes, Pioneer Pdd 9Mk II SACD Player, Yamaha PX-3 Turntable with Sumiko BPS EvoIII, Polk Audio SDA-SRS 1.2TLs.


    "Everything we have fought for has been lost, and everything we fought against, we have become...."

  30. #60

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    nooshinjohn- I've also added "ignorant" to the list.
    Samsung 65" ES8000 LED
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    Polk RTiA5's - Front Towers
    Polk CSiA6 - Center Channel
    Polk RT15i's - Side Surrounds
    Polk FXiA4's - Rear Surrounds
    SVS PB-1000 - Subwoofer
    URC MX5000 - Remote

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