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  1. #91

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    WTH are you going on about? I wasn't talking down your speakers, I think they are fine HT speakers. I was simply providing you with their true capability.

    I've already enlightened you, a long time ago. It's the power supply, it's the power supply, it's the power supply....get it yet!?!
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

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  2. #92

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    So, now you edit your post to say, "I've never mentioned that my speakers are exceptional." Too funny!
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

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  3. #93

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    Waiiiiiiiiit. I think you are saying it's the power supply quality difference (rectifiers, capacitors, transformers, etc, etc, etc) between the AVR and the amp. Is that right Jesse?
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:

    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."

    "Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson

    "Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee

  4. #94

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    Well, the sun will be up soon, so it's time for me to crawl into the coffin. We can continue tomorrow, if you like.

    Good night, good luck, good life.
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

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  5. #95

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    'Night Jesse.
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:

    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."

    "Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson

    "Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee

  6. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by headrott View Post
    Waiiiiiiiiit. I think you are saying it's the power supply quality difference (rectifiers, capacitors, transformers, etc, etc, etc) between the AVR and the amp. Is that right Jesse?
    And here's another one that has nothing to add.
    Samsung 65" ES8000 LED
    Pioneer Elite VSX-53
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    Polk CSiA6 - Center Channel
    Polk RT15i's - Side Surrounds
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  7. #97

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    Oh, I missed your post Greg. Yes, that would be it. :)
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

  8. #98

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    Man, missed all the entertainment.......shucks. Maybe Mr. BBL can throw in his bunny pic to soften up the court Jester

  9. #99

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    Looks like we're getting a third, fourth, and fifth serving of Ravioli!

  10. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jestered View Post
    ...As someone mentioned that I don't know what this hobby is about, well I think I know exactly what it's about. If I wanted to follow blindly I would simply call some guy I don't even know and let him determine what goes into my cabinet. Instead, I'd prefer to learn why I'm putting equipment in my cabinet and how and why. Isn't that what this hobby is all about?
    Nope. This hobby is about trying stuff out on your own and letting your EARS decide. This hobby is about LISTENING to equipment, not reading about equipment. Granted, we all read about equipment to help narrow the choices, but in the end, it's only what your own ears say that matters.

    Until you've put a few different amps in your system and listened to them, you won't know the difference. Period.

    Based on your responses in this thread, I'm assuming that you're going to take the easy way out and not try it. That's too bad, and if that is the case, then you truly do not know what this hobby is about.

    Cheers.
    2-Channel:

    Source 1: PC
    Source 2: Rega Apollo CDP
    USB > SPDIF Converter: Stello U3
    DAC: Audio GD NFB-7
    Preamp: Audio Research LS-15
    Power Amp: BAT VK-500
    Speakers: Magnepan 3.7's

    HT:

    Source 1: HTPC
    Source 2: Oppo 103
    Pre/Pro: Marantz av8003
    Power Amp: Rotel RMB-1095
    Fronts: LSiM-705's
    Center: LSiM-704c
    Surrounds: LSiM-702's
    Subs: Dual SVS PC12-NSD's

  11. #101

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    What's up Jestered... Care to respond to my explanation I gave on the previous page? I don't know how I could break things down even more than I did, but there's your answer, and it seems you missed it.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Monoblocks, Polk Audio "Signature" Reference Series 1.2TL with complete mods, Polk audio AB700/800 "in-wall" surrounds, Dodd Audio MLP, Pioneer Elite SC-65, Peachtree I-DAC, Oppo BDP-93, Yamaha PX-3 Turntable, with Sumiko BPS EVOIII, Pioneer PDD 9MkII SACD Player, SimAudio moon 110lp phono preamplifier

    "The problems we face today exist because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living." Brad Shurett

  12. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawgfish View Post
    Looks like we're getting a third, fourth, and fifth serving of Ravioli!

    Yeah, when the weather gets cold, they come out in flocks on the internet.

  13. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post
    Let me break this down one last time...

    The power supply in your Pioneer is SMALLER than the power supply of a stand-alone amplifier, even though it supports the wattage output of 80 watts you have been talking about. Further, the receiver does not have the ability to STORE that energy in either a large number of or into a large storage output capacitor.

    A power amp may be fed by the power supply, but the actual power is within the output caps. the power supply feeds the caps, which in turn, feeds the speakers. The larger the supply of power, the faster the caps can respond to demand. Can small caps, and small power supply equals the same watt numbers... yes, you would be correct to assume that, BUT(and it is a HUGE BUT!) the small power supply runs out of gas quickly and cannot fill the tank(caps) fast enough to meet the demands of the speakers. It is here that your 80 watts of receiver power smack into the wall and kill your speakers through something called "clipping". A more robust 80 wpc amp however will have the storage capacity to meet the demand and deliver what your speakers are asking for.

    The other thing is transient response. This is when the speakers ask for power, how fast does the amplifier provide it, and recover for the next demand? An amp with the larger power supply and capacitance, will be faster every time, and audibly so. Even if all we are talking about is just a few milliseconds, and yes.. even at low volumes.
    Really good, concise explanation!

    Years ago when I first got into this hobby I discovered this when my amp of choice was Marantz. Started out with integrateds: 1030 rated at 15 wpc, then went up to a 1060 30 wpc, then to a 1070 35 wpc, and then the big jump to a 3200 pre and 240 power amp (120 wpc).

    Each step up provided clearer better sound, even at lower volume levels. And of course I could play louder with better clarity. Never quite understood why at the time, but the effect was easy to hear, which was why I kept swapping equipment.
    Last edited by drumminman; 10-16-2013 at 09:57 AM.
    "Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills, polyswitches removed, Lg Solen inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR BP's, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheet strips installed on back wall behind MW's & Tweeters, interior of cabinets sealed, AI-1 interface with 1000VA A-L transformer

  14. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post
    What's up Jestered... Care to respond to my explanation I gave on the previous page? I don't know how I could break things down even more than I did, but there's your answer, and it seems you missed it.
    Hey. I was having too much fun, but needed to get to bed, so...

    Your explanation was great, and finally has really peaked my interest. What people here keep failing to comprehend is that I was never trying to talk myself out of an amp. I was trying to talk myself into it. Anyway, I appreciate you taking the time to put that out there, not only for me, but for anyone else that has the same question.
    Samsung 65" ES8000 LED
    Pioneer Elite VSX-53
    Polk RTiA5's - Front Towers
    Polk CSiA6 - Center Channel
    Polk RT15i's - Side Surrounds
    Polk FXiA4's - Rear Surrounds
    SVS PB-1000 - Subwoofer
    URC MX5000 - Remote

  15. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post
    Let me break this down one last time...

    The power supply in your Pioneer is SMALLER than the power supply of a stand-alone amplifier, even though it supports the wattage output of 80 watts you have been talking about. Further, the receiver does not have the ability to STORE that energy in either a large number of or into a large storage output capacitor.

    A power amp may be fed by the power supply, but the actual power is within the output caps. the power supply feeds the caps, which in turn, feeds the speakers. The larger the supply of power, the faster the caps can respond to demand. Can small caps, and small power supply equals the same watt numbers... yes, you would be correct to assume that, BUT(and it is a HUGE BUT!) the small power supply runs out of gas quickly and cannot fill the tank(caps) fast enough to meet the demands of the speakers. It is here that your 80 watts of receiver power smack into the wall and kill your speakers through something called "clipping". A more robust 80 wpc amp however will have the storage capacity to meet the demand and deliver what your speakers are asking for.

    The other thing is transient response. This is when the speakers ask for power, how fast does the amplifier provide it, and recover for the next demand? An amp with the larger power supply and capacitance, will be faster every time, and audibly so. Even if all we are talking about is just a few milliseconds, and yes.. even at low volumes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jestered View Post
    Hey. I was having too much fun, but needed to get to bed, so...

    Your explanation was great, and finally has really peaked my interest. What people here keep failing to comprehend is that I was never trying to talk myself out of an amp. I was trying to talk myself into it. Anyway, I appreciate you taking the time to put that out there, not only for me, but for anyone else that has the same question.

    Quote Originally Posted by pitgogg2
    just let me say this the power supply in the AVR was never meant to bank as much energy on reserve as an Amp. Most Amps have a good deal of headroom most AVR's do not. Notice your AVR has say 120wpc in 2 channel and 80 in 5..Well an amp will have 200wpc weather you drive 2 or 5 that is the power supply that F1 speaks of. The power supply in the AVR was NEVER designed to do 120X5 that is why it drops so much down to 80wpc....
    Mine was not as eloquent as Johns but it was right up there with it....

  16. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jestered View Post
    Hey. I was having too much fun, but needed to get to bed, so...

    Your explanation was great, and finally has really peaked my interest. What people here keep failing to comprehend is that I was never trying to talk myself out of an amp. I was trying to talk myself into it. Anyway, I appreciate you taking the time to put that out there, not only for me, but for anyone else that has the same question.
    There is much more to it than I explained in that post. Things like the type of winding used, and the materials it is constructed from... the list is endless actually. I would suggest getting something from Parasound to start off with, and going used over new because you will find more choices at a lower cost than going new.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Monoblocks, Polk Audio "Signature" Reference Series 1.2TL with complete mods, Polk audio AB700/800 "in-wall" surrounds, Dodd Audio MLP, Pioneer Elite SC-65, Peachtree I-DAC, Oppo BDP-93, Yamaha PX-3 Turntable, with Sumiko BPS EVOIII, Pioneer PDD 9MkII SACD Player, SimAudio moon 110lp phono preamplifier

    "The problems we face today exist because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living." Brad Shurett

  17. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post
    There is much more to it than I explained in that post. Things like the type of winding used, and the materials it is constructed from... the list is endless actually. I would suggest getting something from Parasound to start off with, and going used over new because you will find more choices at a lower cost than going new.
    Going used may or may not be my choice. I've been looking at used amps for about a month now, but it seems people are wanting the same for their used amp that I could get it on Amazon for. Now that I have a better understanding outside of simple Ohm's Law, which some people still don't get, then that also allows me to better know what to look for in an amp.
    Samsung 65" ES8000 LED
    Pioneer Elite VSX-53
    Polk RTiA5's - Front Towers
    Polk CSiA6 - Center Channel
    Polk RT15i's - Side Surrounds
    Polk FXiA4's - Rear Surrounds
    SVS PB-1000 - Subwoofer
    URC MX5000 - Remote

  18. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jestered View Post
    Hey. I was having too much fun, but needed to get to bed, so...
    That makes you more of a troll than ignorant.

    Many examples, explanations and links have been provided for you to increase your understanding of what goes on, yet you disregard them by saying no one reads or answers your question. You think 1 watt is needed to maintain a specific dB level. You probably think impedance remains at 8 ohms for your speakers. What do you think is needed to push through resistance?

    Here is another link for you to disregard.

    http://www.crownaudio.com/how_much_power.htm

    I'm thinking you are not that stupid, you are here just to cause problems.
    Make yourself necessary to someone. Ralph Waldo Emerson

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  19. #109

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    Ohm's law ?? Fantastic.....if your an electrical engineer, but means diddly squat in how a piece sounds. Way too many variables besides "ohm's law" go into an amp.

  20. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by SCompRacer View Post
    I'm thinking you are not that stupid, you are here just to cause problems.
    Hence the name....Jester. He just forgot to put "court" in front of it.

  21. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jestered View Post
    Going used may or may not be my choice. I've been looking at used amps for about a month now, but it seems people are wanting the same for their used amp that I could get it on Amazon for. Now that I have a better understanding outside of simple Ohm's Law, which some people still don't get, then that also allows me to better know what to look for in an amp.
    I think you are full of it or you still dont know what you are looking for in an amp because Amazon does not carry an amp worth considering. A few integrateds and AVRs but no stand alone decent amps. There are some $27 amps but like I said decent.

    If Amazon is your source for amps then good luck. You must be a troll.
    Speakers: SDA-1C (most all the goodies)
    Preamp: Joule Electra LA-150 MKII SE
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    Cables: Mits S3 IC and Spk cables| PS Audio PCs

    Ofc: Wright WLA12 preamp: Anthem Amp 1: Pio Elite DV-79AVI: Airport Express: CAL Sigma II DAC: PA LS90 sonicaps and mills

  22. #112

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    Here you go Jestered, just what you need. Go buy them and leave.

    http://www.amazon.com/Autek-Fountain...945701&sr=1-14
    Speakers: SDA-1C (most all the goodies)
    Preamp: Joule Electra LA-150 MKII SE
    Amp: Wright WPA 50-50 EAT KT88s
    Analog: Marantz TT-15S1 MBS Glider SL| Wright WPP100C Amperex BB 6er5 and 7316 & WPM-100 SUT
    Digital: Mac mini 2.3GHz dual-core i5 8g RAM 1.5 TB HDD Music Server Amarra (memory play) - USB - W4S DAC 2
    Cables: Mits S3 IC and Spk cables| PS Audio PCs

    Ofc: Wright WLA12 preamp: Anthem Amp 1: Pio Elite DV-79AVI: Airport Express: CAL Sigma II DAC: PA LS90 sonicaps and mills

  23. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jestered View Post
    Now that I have a better understanding outside of simple Ohm's Law, which some people still don't get, then that also allows me to better know what to look for in an amp.
    Do you mean 'get' in the sense that Ohm's Law, which uses basic algebra, applies to DC circuits. On the other hand, AC circuits require calculus to solve. Since amps are AC circuits, the simple DC circuit Ohm's Law doesn't apply.

  24. #114

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    Name:  animation-37.jpg
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    "Life is one grand, sweet song, so start the music." ~ Ronald Reagan

    "I love songs about horses, railroads, land, Judgment Day, family, hard times, whiskey, courtship, marriage, adultery, separation, murder, war, prison, rambling, damnation, home, salvation, death, pride, humor, piety, rebellion, patriotism, larceny, determination, tragedy, rowdiness, heartbreak and love. And Mother. And God." ~ Johnny Cash

  25. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFox View Post
    Do you mean 'get' in the sense that Ohm's Law, which uses basic algebra, applies to DC circuits. On the other hand, AC circuits require calculus to solve. Since amps are AC circuits, the simple DC circuit Ohm's Law doesn't apply.
    C'mon Fox....you played that card too early. Now you snatched some entertainment value out of the thread. What am I suppose to do with all this popcorn now ?

  26. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyb View Post
    C'mon Fox....you played that card too early. Now you snatched some entertainment value out of the thread. What am I suppose to do with all this popcorn now ?
    Sneaky flying squirrel looking around corner.....

  27. #117

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    Sorry. Wasn't thinking straight. Got up to early this morning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thsmith View Post
    I think you are full of it or you still dont know what you are looking for in an amp because Amazon does not carry an amp worth considering. A few integrateds and AVRs but no stand alone decent amps. There are some $27 amps but like I said decent.

    If Amazon is your source for amps then good luck. You must be a troll.
    You guys just don't give up. It's laughable at this point.

    Where exactly are you looking on Amazon? Is this not at least a decent amp?

    http://www.amazon.com/Parasound-Five...ords=parasound
    Samsung 65" ES8000 LED
    Pioneer Elite VSX-53
    Polk RTiA5's - Front Towers
    Polk CSiA6 - Center Channel
    Polk RT15i's - Side Surrounds
    Polk FXiA4's - Rear Surrounds
    SVS PB-1000 - Subwoofer
    URC MX5000 - Remote

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    Hey Jestered, when you're starting to narrow down amp choices, make a new thread about what you're looking at. There is a lot of experience here that can help you achieve your desired sound. Good luck on the hunt.
    2-Channel:

    Source 1: PC
    Source 2: Rega Apollo CDP
    USB > SPDIF Converter: Stello U3
    DAC: Audio GD NFB-7
    Preamp: Audio Research LS-15
    Power Amp: BAT VK-500
    Speakers: Magnepan 3.7's

    HT:

    Source 1: HTPC
    Source 2: Oppo 103
    Pre/Pro: Marantz av8003
    Power Amp: Rotel RMB-1095
    Fronts: LSiM-705's
    Center: LSiM-704c
    Surrounds: LSiM-702's
    Subs: Dual SVS PC12-NSD's

  30. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by falconcry72 View Post
    Hey Jestered, when you're starting to narrow down amp choices, make a new thread about what you're looking at. There is a lot of experience here that can help you achieve your desired sound. Good luck on the hunt.
    Thanks falconcry72. I appreciate it!
    Samsung 65" ES8000 LED
    Pioneer Elite VSX-53
    Polk RTiA5's - Front Towers
    Polk CSiA6 - Center Channel
    Polk RT15i's - Side Surrounds
    Polk FXiA4's - Rear Surrounds
    SVS PB-1000 - Subwoofer
    URC MX5000 - Remote

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