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  1. #1

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    Question Planning a Project With SDA-CRS+ guts...

    Hi folks!

    I'm working on a project, and would like some advice, tips, or suggestions from the esteemed members of this forum. One of the things I've been playing around with is the idea of a center channel speaker to go with my various SDAs. Along the way, what I've decided is that from a timbre-matching point of view, almost every recommendation seems to suggest using a single CRS+ speaker. As some have observed, recently including Darqueknight here, the problem is that their proportions make it difficult to physically place them in their factory configuration. They simply are too big. What I've decided to do is to create something different, and I've begun planning it out, have acquired many or most of the parts, and am going to see how well it works. As I build it, I will take pictures so that I can provide a more complete build post. While I'm yet to build the first bit, and before I've committed to the way it will be built, I thought I'd ask for opinions, advice, and suggestions. I'll be happy for any, including those of the "don't bother" variety. Here's what I'm planning:

    My television currently sits on a low flat rack. Its top, on which the TV rests, is removable glass over an aluminum tubular frame, and is approximately 24x40, although it is curved on the front edge, going from roughly 24" at the center to 21-1/2" at the sides.

    Much has changed since this picture was taken, including the TV and the SDAs pictured would no longer be in the picture, and there is different hardware generally. The point is to show you WHERE my project is intended to land.

    Click image for larger version

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    My goal is that whatever I build will not add more than 9 inches in height to the placement of the television. What I am intending at present will involve using the drivers and the tweeters from a pair of (1986) SDA CRS+ arrayed in a single horizontal line (the mids are MW6510s and the tweets are sl2000s). The left and the right will be on opposing sides of the curve of the front, so they will be on slightly different planes. I was left with a bit of a conundrum with respect to the passives, as there are a number of ways I could do this. What I am going to try first is to place a line of 4 6.5" passives across the back, and two on the sides(near the rear.) The cabinet will be divided left from right, and the way I'm building the center section, I will leave room for a crossover network and I will remotely mount the various inductors apart from the 0.4mHs in the tweeter networks. The 1.75mH and 1.5mH inductors for each speaker will be placed in various locations in the center space. The two 5.6mH inductors will be placed in a pocket on either side. The general layout will look like this:

    Click image for larger version

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    My initial intentions with the crossover network are to essentially build the crossovers of two CRS+ speakers on a single board. I intend also to place a switch with which I can flip between stereo mode(utilizing the SDA circuit) when I have only the TV on, or in center channel mode if I'm using the HT preamp. In fact, I've thought that what I might do is to use a 12vdc triggered relay to make that switchover. If the HT preamp powers on, the 12vdc trigger will fire, and click, we're in center channel mode. Otherwise, it remains in SDA mode and that's the extent of it.

    Cosmetically, I will wait to apply veneer&cloth until after I decide the final arrangement. In any case, I will be going for an SDA-like appearance, much in the style of the SRS's. I'll be doing some of the initial mock-up this or next weekend. In terms of the guts, I've gotten some less expensive capacitors from VR3, who has been very helpful. I'm getting some 5.6mH inductors from him for this project, as well as the other upgrades I'm slowly going through. In the end, I don't want to have spent a ton of cash on this until I have some indication that my "sda-in-a-box" will sound ok.

    Okay, well, that's the current project here. Fire away...LOL

    Mark
    SDA SRS, SDA SRS1.2TL, SDA 2B, Soundcraftsmen Amplification (A5002s, MA5002s)

  2. #2

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    Looks very interesting. I too, like many other here faced that dilemma, finding a center to match the timbre of my SDA-2ATLs. I went a different route, and used a Monitor 10 crossover as my starting point. You can read about it here: http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...hannel-Project
    My two concerns, would be the dual tweeters, and adding enough 6.5" PRs to tune the woofers properly.
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL
    Center: Custom Built http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...hannel-Project
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...rround-Project
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat & Hurricane Nuts.
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  3. #3

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    I'm in the "don't bother" camp, to be honest. Back in the days when I used my sda's as fronts for home theater, I used a Polk CS-350LS as the center channel. I thought the sound matched up just fine. I've seen them sell on this forum in the $100 range.
    Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance.

  4. #4

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    Westmassguy,

    I thought about the PR issue, but I'm willing to give it a go. It's good fun to experiment with anyway. Sometimes, you get lucky and even if it doesn't work out, you learn something... I checked out your build project, and that's pretty nifty. My cabinet will wind up being roughly twice as deep from the looks of it. I also made notes of your approach to the tweeters issue. One thing about the passives is that the way I'm building it, I will have room for two more, although the placement will be iffy on those last two. The volume in either side of the cabinet should be roughly in the ballpark of a crs+, maybe a little more, or at least that was the idea. The difference being that the CRS used a 10 inch pr. Problem is, I don't want it down-facing, and so the only way to stay in this general design envelope is to use smaller prs. I'm hoping that I can tune them, but I know that's going to be a challenge, which is part of the whole purpose anyway, right? Don't be surprised if I turn to you for ideas and suggestions as this project moves along. Building the cabinet begins this weekend. That ought to keep me busy until Thanksgiving at least. I'm about to find out how far my skills with a router have fallen off....LOL Anyway, before I go too crazy making it pretty, it's going to need to sound right, or why bother?

    nspindel, Yeah, I know. I've thought about that approach too. It may be where I end up if I don't like how this goes, but since I've spent a little bit of coin now to accumulate the parts, I'll give it a try.
    SDA SRS, SDA SRS1.2TL, SDA 2B, Soundcraftsmen Amplification (A5002s, MA5002s)

  5. #5

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    Mounting PRs horizontally is a no-no. They're not designed for that. A ported design might be easier to tune, than multiple PRs.
    I've not been able to find T/S parameters on Polks 6.5" PRs, so you may have to go with another manufacturer.
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL
    Center: Custom Built http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...hannel-Project
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...rround-Project
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat & Hurricane Nuts.
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-350

    "So is there any tread left on those tires or is it just like throwing a hotdog down a hallway?"

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  6. #6

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    I'm in another camp - following your project with interest and hoping you succeed, but without knowledge/experience to contribute much meaningful insight.

    I will say that from what I've read glass shelving is generally considered to degrade sound because it rings/microvibrates. Could a new entertainment rack or new shelving be in consideration?
    "Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills, polyswitches removed, Lg Solen inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR binding posts, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheets (3" strips) installed on back wall behind MW's & Tweeters, interior of cabinets sealed, AI-1 interface with 1000VA transformer

  7. #7

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    I commend your enthusiasm and hope your final project works well for your needs and ears.

    The biggest concern i would have is the placement of the multiple tweets as you show in your drawing. This layout is essentially two separate speakers side by side and NOT a center. This will sound like two speakers laid side by side and NOT a center. In a center speaker the sound should seem to originate from the center and progress outward. I would recommend either a single tweeter with as close to center driver spacing as possible, or maybe a progressive point source as in the larger SDA's. This is by far the biggest issue I see with your proposed layout.

    next would be the passive situation as mentioned earlier. This is easily enough fixed by simply going ported instead of passive. It will however effect the enclosure dimensions.

    Good luck with the project. And that is a lot of gear on those racks. I'm guessing multiple systems since i spot at least 3 EQ's.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by westmassguy View Post
    Mounting PRs horizontally is a no-no. They're not designed for that. A ported design might be easier to tune, than multiple PRs.
    So I've read. A ported design might be easier, but what fun is that?

    Quote Originally Posted by westmassguy View Post
    I've not been able to find T/S parameters on Polks 6.5" PRs, so you may have to go with another manufacturer.
    I've not found the specs either. Spent a half day googling and came up empty. I even looked around for PRs with similar build characteristics hoping to get a "ballpark" idea, but really nothing. May be winging it a bit here.
    SDA SRS, SDA SRS1.2TL, SDA 2B, Soundcraftsmen Amplification (A5002s, MA5002s)

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by markamerica View Post
    So I've read. A ported design might be easier, but what fun is that?
    I've not found the specs either. Spent a half day googling and came up empty. I even looked around for PRs with similar build characteristics hoping to get a "ballpark" idea, but really nothing. May be winging it a bit here.
    Winging it is where I live most of the time. Good luck. Parts Express has some PRs, but nothing close to the 6.5" unfortunately. They jump from 3.5" to 8" with nothing in between.
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL
    Center: Custom Built http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...hannel-Project
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...rround-Project
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat & Hurricane Nuts.
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-350

    "So is there any tread left on those tires or is it just like throwing a hotdog down a hallway?"

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  10. #10

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    Drumminman,

    Thanks. I have actually considered replacing the glass with more traditional shelving. All the glass does rest on rubber insulators, and I don't notice a problem, although I had an empty shelf at one time, and I could hear it. I suspect with no weight on it, the glass shelve's own weight wasn't enough to settle in the rubber. If the glass itself is resonating, I haven't noticed. That said, I'm not opposed to something new/different, but one project at a time.
    SDA SRS, SDA SRS1.2TL, SDA 2B, Soundcraftsmen Amplification (A5002s, MA5002s)

  11. #11

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    Mr. Bubbles, thank you for the response!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Bubbles View Post
    I commend your enthusiasm and hope your final project works well for your needs and ears.

    The biggest concern i would have is the placement of the multiple tweets as you show in your drawing. This layout is essentially two separate speakers side by side and NOT a center. This will sound like two speakers laid side by side and NOT a center. In a center speaker the sound should seem to originate from the center and progress outward. I would recommend either a single tweeter with as close to center driver spacing as possible, or maybe a progressive point source as in the larger SDA's. This is by far the biggest issue I see with your proposed layout...
    Yes, I see your point. What I was trying to accomplish was to be a compromise, so that it could effectively work both ways. What you've managed to explain to this dim bulb is that a compromise isn't really possible, at least not in this layout.

    Hmmm. Back to the drawing board.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Bubbles View Post
    next would be the passive situation as mentioned earlier. This is easily enough fixed by simply going ported instead of passive. It will however effect the enclosure dimensions..
    Yes, ports seem to be the consensus workaround. Trouble is, I know less than I should about ports, except that everything I ever owned that had ports managed to be invaded at some point by one or more of the little stinging scorpions we have around here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Bubbles View Post
    Good luck with the project. And that is a lot of gear on those racks. I'm guessing multiple systems since i spot at least 3 EQ's.
    Oh, there was a lot of gear. That picture is several years old. Many things rearranged since then. There were multiples of several things then... Point was to show the tv stand/rack...
    SDA SRS, SDA SRS1.2TL, SDA 2B, Soundcraftsmen Amplification (A5002s, MA5002s)

  12. #12

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    I found some on madisound. There were two different 6.5s. One by accuton, one by SEAS(173mm), might work. Saw in your build thread that you used a single tweeter as described by Mr. Bubbles. Hmmm. Lots to chew on here.

    Thanks!

    Mark
    SDA SRS, SDA SRS1.2TL, SDA 2B, Soundcraftsmen Amplification (A5002s, MA5002s)

  13. #13

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    Exclamation update

    After considering the advice of forum members, I've ditched the idea of the complex triggered business to switch between an SDA array in a single box and a dedicated Center channel speaker. Instead, I am building it as a dedicated center channel speaker I've also decided to use a different model driver. I have a few options, but what I've provisionally decided upon is four MW6501s and two SL2000s. I made up a testing crossover board for this purpose on a sheet of Delrin. I tested the general sound of the drivers with this network to get an idea as to whether I should proceed at all. I was shocked at how good it sounded despite cobbling together a 4.4uf cap for the top tweeter out of a string of larger value caps in series and running it in unmounted, open air form.

    I feel like the general idea has merit enough to proceed. I ordered the caps from Erse, though I had to settle for a pair of 2.2uFs rather than a single 4.4.

    As far as my notional build, I am going to use both channels of a Soundcraftsmen A5002 both playing the same mono center signal. One channel will power the upper tweeter and the two inner MWs, while the other channel will drive the lower tweeter and the outboard MWs. In essence then, it's actually two separate crossover networks on a single board, but intended to play the same signal.

    I am using Mundorf Mox resistors, and as I mentioned, I am using Erse Caps. For the inductors, I am using three standard Polk 0.4mH coils, and a pair of stock Polk 1.55mH inductors from the crossovers of a pair of Monitor 7s I picked up on Ebay a few years ago.

    The 1.55mH inductors will be mounted off-board inside the empty space in the middle chamber(see diagram in first post)

    It is not likely that I would pay for silk-screening, but I have designed a board I will send off to ExpressPCB if I finish building the cabinet, mock it up, and still like what I hear.

    One of the things I considered i that since the minimum number of boards you can order from them is 2, I decided that I would make the front and back layers identical so that I could sandwich two boards together to give me twice as much copper. I used 1/4" traces everywhere, and I may still make some adjustments, but I am using Molex Sr Fit plugs and PCB headers with gold contacts for my wiring harness. If you're unfamiliar with the SR fit, here's a picture:

    Click image for larger version

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    The PCB will itself mount on the back of an aluminum plate that will be reminiscent of the x-over cover plate on the front of the SRSs, with the exception that my binding posts will penetrate that panel and will have nuts sandwiching the board.

    The drivers will be placed in parallel pairs. Ive decided to put the spots om the board for the rde050 polyswitches, and for the bypass caps(750pF) for the tweeters, although I'm unlikely to use the latter.

    Here are the schematic and pcb layout screen shots.

    Click image for larger version

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    As you can see from the schematic, the tweeter networks are actually the two halves of the SRS2/SDA1B tweeter network, separated and teamed with the design of the Monitor 10 Low frequency network.

    Ignore the connector numbering. The board layout and schemqtic don't agree. On the board layout, P1 sends leads to one side of the remotely mounted 1.55mH inductors, and those return to P2 and P3 in the bottom position. P2 and P3 sends leads to the + side of the midwoofers, but the top position on them send leads to the + sides of the Tweeters. P4 and P5 bring the leads back from the MWs and the Tweeters.

    Additionally, here's the mocked-up board I made for testing. Please forgive and ignore the convoluted series of capacitors in the middle of the board, strung together to make 4.4uF(12.2,30.7,31.65,12.32 in series = 4.4uF.) Sometimes, a fella has to make do with whatever he has handy.

    Click image for larger version

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    Anyway, that's an update on where this project stands. Still soliciting opinions, comments, critiques, and general suggestions/ideas.

    Thanks!

    Mark
    SDA SRS, SDA SRS1.2TL, SDA 2B, Soundcraftsmen Amplification (A5002s, MA5002s)

  14. #14

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    Me? I would have built a new rack/cabinet that a modified single CRS+ could sit in just under the TV with an open back to allow the PR to breath.
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

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    F1Nut,

    I realize that may have been more practical, and certainly simpler, but that would be so not me... I like building things, tinkering with things, and figuring things out. That, and it gave me an excuse to work out some things I intend to apply to my other SDAs as I upgrade their crossovers. For instance, today, I actually received my SR Fit headers and plugs from Mouser, and I printed out the PCB layout to see if my pad placement matched, since I had to create those components. I pushed the header down though the paper, and yep, perfect fit, so at least I knew I could read a mechanical drawing...LOL Point is, I intend to use those on other projects, and this was a good chance to integrate them in a project. I look at this as a learning experience and practice for much more expensive projects, like the SRSs or the 1.2TLs.

    Thanks!
    SDA SRS, SDA SRS1.2TL, SDA 2B, Soundcraftsmen Amplification (A5002s, MA5002s)

  16. #16

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    I'm sorry, but some tweaks/ideas in this hobby make sense and some don't. This one doesn't, but good luck anyway.
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    I'm sorry, but some tweaks/ideas in this hobby make sense and some don't. This one doesn't, but good luck anyway.
    Well F1Nut, that's the beauty of this hobby: Not everything that makes sense to you will make sense to me, and vice versa.

    Again, thanks for your opnion.

    Mark
    SDA SRS, SDA SRS1.2TL, SDA 2B, Soundcraftsmen Amplification (A5002s, MA5002s)

  18. #18

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    I love when Jesse disapproves of something. Straight to the point with no filler.

    Mark, going to make it up in January? Only a 3 hour drive or so for ya.
    Usher CP-6311, Shuguang S200MK, Shuguang S845MK, Pioneer BDP-51fd, Douglas IC's, AQ cv-8 SC's, Pangea/Douglas PC's, Epson 8100

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    DSkip,

    Make it where? Are forum members doing something hereabouts in January?

    Mark
    SDA SRS, SDA SRS1.2TL, SDA 2B, Soundcraftsmen Amplification (A5002s, MA5002s)

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    DSkip,

    Found the get-together thread. I may indeed be able to make that. Thanks for pointing it out. I mostly stick in the Vintage speakers section, so I might never have seen it otherwise. Thanks!
    SDA SRS, SDA SRS1.2TL, SDA 2B, Soundcraftsmen Amplification (A5002s, MA5002s)

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    Quote Originally Posted by DSkip View Post
    I love when Jesse disapproves of something. Straight to the point with no filler.
    BTW, I don't mind F1's undiluted opinions, nor those of anybody else. I just figure that's part of the deal, and besides, I have some of my own. ;-)
    SDA SRS, SDA SRS1.2TL, SDA 2B, Soundcraftsmen Amplification (A5002s, MA5002s)

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    You may experience comb filtering with the centers in that configuration. If you're fixated on two centers, one above and one below the TV may work. But a single CRS with the SDA signal grounded would be the most coherent. As for the passive radiator, since there is no magnet to center the cone, they must be mounted vertically. If you have the CRS woofer's T&S parameters, you could calculate the optimum port size for their enclosure. Sealed is another option as maximum bass extension shouldn't be the priority for a center channel.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche

  23. #23

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    Default Update

    Here are a few pictures of where I stand.

    The veneer remains to be done, the wiring needs to be done, the permanent crossover is yet to be built, but here, I was placing my new gaskets and checking the fit after applying melamine. Here's one front view:
    front1-sm.jpg
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    SDA SRS, SDA SRS1.2TL, SDA 2B, Soundcraftsmen Amplification (A5002s, MA5002s)

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    Default update continued

    Rear view shows unfinished panel behind which crossover components will be installed, and where binding posts will ultimately be attached, along with four passives:
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    SDA SRS, SDA SRS1.2TL, SDA 2B, Soundcraftsmen Amplification (A5002s, MA5002s)

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    So you're the one that bought up all the 6.5" PRs....JK...
    Looks really nice. Little concerned about those stacked tweeters being too hot on axis. You might have to pad them down a bit.
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL
    Center: Custom Built http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...hannel-Project
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...rround-Project
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat & Hurricane Nuts.
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-350

    "So is there any tread left on those tires or is it just like throwing a hotdog down a hallway?"

    www.dhsspeakerservice.com

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    Very nice Mark, BTW everything is bigger in Texas, right :-)
    POLK SDA 2.3 TLS BOUGHT NEW IN 1990, Gimpod/Sonic Caps/Mills RDO-198
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    Quote Originally Posted by markamerica View Post
    I realize that may have been more practical, and certainly simpler, but that would be so not me... I like building things, tinkering with things, and figuring things out.
    Sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do

    Nice workmanship Mark. Look forward to your listening impressions.
    "Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills, polyswitches removed, Lg Solen inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR binding posts, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheets (3" strips) installed on back wall behind MW's & Tweeters, interior of cabinets sealed, AI-1 interface with 1000VA transformer

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by westmassguy View Post
    So you're the one that bought up all the 6.5" PRs....JK...
    Looks really nice. Little concerned about those stacked tweeters being too hot on axis. You might have to pad them down a bit.
    Yeah, that was me buying up 6.5 passives like they were going out of style. As for the tweets, I started out with 3.3ohm resistors up front, but found they were too muted. I went back to 2.7ohm, and I think in the end, I will be happier there, though I may play with some values in between. It does bass remarkably well.
    SDA SRS, SDA SRS1.2TL, SDA 2B, Soundcraftsmen Amplification (A5002s, MA5002s)

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by PolkieMan View Post
    Very nice Mark, BTW everything is bigger in Texas, right :-)
    I don't know about everything, despite the hype, but in this case...

    Thanks!
    SDA SRS, SDA SRS1.2TL, SDA 2B, Soundcraftsmen Amplification (A5002s, MA5002s)

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by markamerica View Post
    Yeah, that was me buying up 6.5 passives like they were going out of style. As for the tweets, I started out with 3.3ohm resistors up front, but found they were too muted. I went back to 2.7ohm, and I think in the end, I will be happier there, though I may play with some values in between. It does bass remarkably well.
    Awesome, enjoy it!
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL
    Center: Custom Built http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...hannel-Project
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...rround-Project
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat & Hurricane Nuts.
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-350

    "So is there any tread left on those tires or is it just like throwing a hotdog down a hallway?"

    www.dhsspeakerservice.com

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